Ruel, Jimf, BillMarsh, Beoram........

J

Johan van Zyl

Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Messages
372
I call upon you guys mentioned, and any other who could possible help me with an answer to two questions I have. I have this Kurdish jambiya, like the one in the link below:

http://www.antiqueswords.com/ah4.htm

It unfortunaltely does not have a sheath, and didn't have the round brass discs on the hilt when I got it. I made the discs (four of them) and put them on the hilt. Originally I only wanted to put on two discs, 'cause I thought they are supposed to have discs on one side only. Eventually, the weight of evidence seemed to point to four discs (both sides)in total. I didn't have Syrian coins to make them with, so my home-made discs are plain, and slightly rounded out. I hope I didn't make a mistake concerning the number of discs. The photo's I accessed show one side only. Descriptions varied between two and four discs. Comments please, guys.?

Next I would like to ask about the sheath. Photos I accessed show one side only, so I would like to know about the back. I also don't know about the traditional method of making the sheath. I took two slabs of wood, and cut a groove into each, into which the central ridge of the blade slides. I guess that's how they got the sheath to be so slender, cause there's no room for glueing. If the blade slides in and out of the sheath with the help of the groove and ridge, the blade can't cut the leather.

Next I want to put leather around the wood, stitching the leather at the back in the centre of the sheath. This I ASSUME is correct. How do the owners attach the jambiya to their clothes? I know they use a sash for a belt, but how will they draw the jambiya if the sheath is not FASTENED to the sash? I know the Arab-type sheath has a hook which catches on the belt upon drawing the knife, but the Kurdish type sheath seems to be quite straight. Do I fashion some type of belt loop? Can someone explain what the loop looks like, if in fact there is one?

Thanks in advance, guys!!!
 
Johan -
Others with knowledge of the jambiya can answer your questions, but those which can be answered by looking at examples might find a solution here:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/OA/introduction.html

Go through the gallery pages, "sold" pages and knives for sale in the "Turkey/Arab/Caucasus" section, and you will see more examples of the jambiya than in any other single place. It almost equals Howard's compilation on Khukuris. There are even some in the Indo/Persian section.....something should match what you have, and/or give you some ideas toward what you are tryingto achieve.
 
Hi Johan!

* Walosi's right -- Artzi at OA probably knows jambiyas better than anyone, since they've been his specialty for some 40 years!

* As far as the manner of wearing it, I'd guess that it was worn the same way that their imperial overlords, the Ottoman Turks, wore theirs -- tucked into a waist sash. Turkish J-'s seem to have the same overall shape, width, and curvature as Kurdish ones.

I often wondered about how such a knife could be drawn without the sheath being secured to the belt in some way, but it turns out to be less of a problem than might be imagined. I was all dressed up at an Indian wedding recently, and wore an Indian j-- and katar as part of the get-up. The j-- was about the same shape and size as your Kurdish one. I was surprised to find how well a simple waist sash held both pieces, and that it was tight enough to hold the scabbard as the j-- was being drawn.

It still felt better, though, to hold onto the scabbard with the other hand. In that respect, drawing a j-- is more like drawing a sword than a knife. Apparently j--s never favored fast draws; in that respect, they're kind of like khukuris. :)
 
Johan:

Oriental Arms is the best on line source I know of. Some of the stuff I purchased from them is still in their 'Sold' group.

Kurdish daggers are not my area of expertise, since there are so many variations on the basic Jambiya design that only an expert (Artzi) can really tell the difference.

I do mostly Omani Jambiyas where the sheath has between four and seven silver rings that support the belt. No idea how the Kurds kept theirs in place - under a wide, tight belt? However, I did check out a Kurdish Jambiya, and the disks are on both sides of the hilt. This is not in keeping with the Omani style, where the hilt decorations are only on the outside.

In the Omani design, the sheath is often silver over leather over wood. Finished only on the side that faces out. The leather is stitched down the center of the back, and covered with some sort of a 'varnish' to keep it from decaying (?).

Sorry I can't be of more help.

JimF
 
Walosi, JimF and Ruel, I thank you for the information you have supplied so far. I'm just waiting for an opportunity to look at the site you have proposed, Walosi, and I'm sure it's going to be an excellent source of information. In the meantime I have completed the four discs. I don't know exactly how rounded (dome-shaped) they should have been, but I DID round mine out slightly. I have not yet gotten confirmation about the idea of the blade ridge sliding into a corresponding groove in the sheath, but I expect that's the way they would have fashioned them. I'm at the stage now where I will be looking out for a piece of black leather, which must be thin, but not so thin it cannot be embossed.

I had the great priviledge of handling a very old, very valuable khukuri the other day, and I was absolutely amazed at the craftmanship that went into the fashioning of the sheath. Light as a feather, not a millimeter bigger than is absolutely necessary. A pleasure to behold. Stitches so small, you have to strain your eyes to take in every detail. Seems the sheaths of the Kurdish-type jambiyas are like that. There's a painstaking task waiting for me!

If anybody else can relinquish more information that might help me further, I'd like to see it. You're a great bunch, guys! Wish I could sit down with you and page through my amassed information and pictures of jambiyas with you. I've already got this ledger full of juicy pics. I'll probably never be able to own a really nice jambiya like some in the ledger seem to be, but I get such a lot of pleasure and satisfaction restoring the one I DO have... Pardon the rambling!
 
Since when was rambling a crime around here? :rolleyes: When you find your leather, cut it so that you have enough to overlap the back by a couple of inches. Looking at the new sarki's work, and trying to see through the dye, it is apparent he forms the leather around the wood while it is wet. From the way some of the stitching has pulled, it appears that he has stitched the leather off the wood, and then forced the wood into the leather after stitching. Terry might have some shortcuts here. Might be useful to glue _and_ pin the halves of the scabbard together if you anticipate having to use much force in getting the wood into the "wet leather sock".
 
Hi Johan - I am afraid I don't know that much about jambiyas - anything I could tell you would be only from looking at Egerton.

--B.
 
Uncle, I'll bet those dust bunnies have seen a few lovely jambiyas!
Beoram, thanks for coming in. I've looked at the site given to me, and saw some beautiful ethnic knives. I really admire the slenderness of especially the Kurdish-type jambiya sheaths! They're about the same width as the blades themselves, which led me to adopt the idea of the blade ridge riding within a groove in the wooden sheath slabs. That's the only way (I think) the blade edge is prevented from cutting the leather upon insertion and extraction! Can someone please comment on this? Anyone who actually possesses a sheath such as this will immediately be able to confirm my suspicion. Thanks once again!

If this is true, it means the wood comes up only to the edge, and there's no wood between the very edge and the leather binding the wood halves together....
 
The fellow who claims he has 800 khukuris also has about 80 jambiyas and maybe a 100 more middle Eastern blades. Enough anyway to always win best of show no matter which knife show he attends.
 
Hope that show comes my way someday! :cool:

Johan, I took a look at two of my jambiya with cerntral ribs for info on the scabbard construction. Here's what I saw:

1. Omani Arab (al-Bu Saidi style):

albuunsheathed.jpg


This one's scabbard is fabric over wood. The throat is slotted to receive the rib, though I can't see inside to tell if the wood is similarly cut.

2. Nepali:

j.jpg


Here I can see into the scabbard, and as you thought about the Kurdish scabbard, the pieces of wood don't really touch except for the very tips; it appears that the tight leather wrap is holding it all together. The wood is not slotted to receive the rib.

However, since a jambiya from Nepal is not normal (mine's the only one I'm aware of), I don't know if it's representative of jambiya on the whole.

Still, it is kind of neat how they manage to make the scabbard stay together without the wood pieces resting against and supporting each other.

r---
 
Uncle, yuh'd better keep a tight rein on dem bunnies; they might escape an' go where the grass's greener. An' don't let 'em get Ruel's address! (He got a bed too, Ah reckon.)

Rual, THANKS A LOT for going to the extra trouble!. It's really appreciated. Also thanks to all others who have relinquished information. My research into the jambiya has actually heightened my appreciation for my khukuris!!!!!!!!!
 
No trouble at all! I'd never have noticed (and thus never appreciated) all those subtle details about construction if you hadn't brought it up. I'm a superficial kind of guy; I pay more attention to the surface decoration: The pretty flowers, the lines & dots, etc. :eek: ;)
 
Hi, Ruel:

Sorry for the side track, but how did you import those pics into your post? I'd live to be able to do that, but I am new to the cantina, and don't know my way around the system that well.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

Keith
 
Hi Keith,

The hard part is having the picture files already uploaded somewhere on the Web. If you have that done, the rest is easy. :cool: If you look up on the menu bar of your "Reply" screen, you'll see an IMG button. Simply press that, and you'll get a bar that you can paste your picture file's URL. That's all you have to do!

If for some reason the toolbar doesn't display, just type the URL between
b] and [b]
; has the same effect.

I gather that you have some interesting pix to share with us? :D
 
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