S30V, your conclusions?

[moonlight]

I'm not a specialist but I know that the heat treatment improve or decrease the basic performance of steel.
S30V is a great steel by nature, as the VG10, but both can be crappy with a bad treatment.

 

[M Wadel]

dont really know if im entitled to this opinion but still. the really scart scary sharp edge of s30v disappears quite fast but whats below is pretty darn sharp and it stays sharp for a long time. i think its more or less the same with all steel it just stayts super duper sharp for a short while. i like s30v but there probably is better steels out there, there always is

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm unfamiliar with how Roman heat-treats his 440A ...

I did a bunch of reading on those steels after he started talking about high soak temperatures and they are in fact standard, though not in the knife industry. Is this by choice for performance or just not wanting to run furnaces over 2000F constantly? You need a high soak in order to get enough carbon into the steel to get full martensite hardness which also at the same time brings enough chromium in for high rust resistance, for once you actually don't have something in opposition. You even get a finer carbide structure so there is then the issue of fine edges and durability.

Still, it's closer to compare 440A to S7 than S30V to any tool steel with a reputation for toughness.

To clearify, before someone paraphrases the above referencing 420 as stainless S7, those stainless steels don't approach the toughness of S7, they however have a similar chemistry and their makeup, is where you would start for looking at tough stainless steels, which is kind of like looking for shade in the desert, it doesn't mean you forget you are in the desert, but it isn't in the sun.

...it blew my mind that my 52100-steeled pocketknife could stab into a dvd player and cut copper wire without losing a shaving edge, because I can't grind S30V as thin without it getting barely visible microchips performing similar tasks...

The difference in toughness between the high alloy stainless and the low alloy carbon steels is extreme, it is about as similar to the corrosion resistance. There is a massive amount of hype about this, a lot of it is now starting to revert as more and more makers are offering non-stainless blades. The high toughness steels are also starting to get some hype and it is a case of going too far from one extreme to the other, hopefully it will settle down into the correct medium between the two and the steel will also adapt to the knife because they don't all need the same attributes in a blade material.

For me, I just don't see where S30V fits in.

Basically, when heat treated right, it should do what VG-10 does and do it better. I would not promote any increase in toughness, but it should not be more brittle, and it should stay slicing sharp much longer and at least match it or exceed it in push cutting sharpness depending on the hardness. The only real downside should be the grindability, but with proper sharpening techniques you can ignore this completely, aside from major reshaping, but even then we are talking about minutes to rip an edge from 20 to 10 on a 4" blade. I have found 10V to be a bit more challenging in applying the final micro-bevel due to the vanadium so it takes more care in getting enough pressure to cut, but not so much so that it deforms. I have not found S30V to have this effect, and in fact two S30V knives (South Fork and Sebenza) consistently sharpen very well, and tend to on average be slightly sharper initially than other steels they are compared against (with the same edge angle).

-Cliff

 

[T.K.C.]

I have had no issues with ANY of my S30V knives: 2 Sebbies, 1 Mnandi, Buck/Mayo TNT, R.Hinderer Firetac, P. Atwood Solar Arc, Ritter Mini-grip, and a Combat Elite RRF. I for one, really like S30V!

 

[benh]

I'm not sure yet about S30V. I've sharpened my Ritter MiniGrip three times now. It had a killer edge out of the box, but dulled kind of quickly. I went to a 20 degree per side angle, which took some time, and had good performance out of it, but there were some nicks in the blade, and I wasn't abusing it.

The other day, I tried to resharpen it on my Lansky using the two finest hones and was not happy with the edge. Not sure if that was user malfunction or what, but the edge was crap. It *seemed* sharp but was not.

I resharpened it again tonight on the Lansky, from coarse down to fine hones, made sure to remove the wire edge, and even stropped it a bit. The edge is very very keen and push cuts into a phone book a few inches without much effort at all.

If this edge holds up well, I'll be convinced.

At this point, I really wish that someone made a Lansky hone that would take 25 micron lapping paper. Might end up buying a spare hone and gluing paper to it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

At 20 degrees per side it should be extremely robust, felling axes are typically not sharpened at that obtuse an angle.

-Cliff

 

[benh]

Well, it is what it is. Hoping it'll hold up.

I really would like it if the Lanksy could go down to 5 degrees per side. I'm half considering having someone make me a jig that'll do it.

 

[Dog of War]

Basically, when heat treated right, it should do what VG-10 does and do it better. I would not promote any increase in toughness, but it should not be more brittle, and it should stay slicing sharp much longer and at least match it or exceed it in push cutting sharpness depending on the hardness. The only real downside should be the grindability, but with proper sharpening techniques you can ignore this completely, aside from major reshaping, but even then we are talking about minutes to rip an edge from 20 to 10 on a 4" blade. I have found 10V to be a bit more challenging in applying the final micro-bevel due to the vanadium so it takes more care in getting enough pressure to cut, but not so much so that it deforms. I have not found S30V to have this effect, and in fact two S30V knives (South Fork and Sebenza) consistently sharpen very well, and tend to on average be slightly sharper initially than other steels they are compared against (with the same edge angle).

Reading what you've said here along with many of your other posts, I take it the qualification "when heat treated right" is a big "if" in your mind .... more so than with many other blade steels, true?

Phil Wilson's comments on heat treat from the Seamount website:

If the blade steel is the heart of a knife then the heat treating is the soul. The best obtainable tool steel in the world will make the worst very expensive custom knife if the heat treating is not right. I decided years ago that to be able to control the quality of my knives I had to do my own heat treating. The high alloy steels mentioned above can be tricky to heat treat and require good equipment that is capable of repeatability. Doing my own heat treating was a big commitment but I'm glad I made the effort and investment in equipment. I can now precisely control the hardness of each blade. They are all individually Rockwell hardness tested through each step of the process. Final adjustments along the way can be made to arrive at the final hardness desired and the confidence that they are exactly right for the intended use. I do an ultra subzero secondary quench in liquid nitrogen to insure complete conversion to the Martensite phase of the steel. This also insures stability and toughness for the life of the blade. The quenching is followed by multiple tempers to insure the best balance between toughness and hardness.

I read this as strongly implying what a number of us seem to have concluded: heat treatment of S30V is demanding, and may be especially so in a large production environment. This would explain why for example Spyderco's doing large runs of Natives to sell in Walmarts across the country for $40 results in some quality control issues.

If I'm reading you correctly this would seem to get to the heart of the matter. It doesn't radically change my conclusions about S30V compared to VG-10 because I think there's a much bigger general market and need for reasonably priced, high quality production blades than for expensive custom or semi-custom knives requiring a critical heat treat process and much individual testing. But I'm glad to know that S30V can perform at the level you report .... I'm going to contact Phil Wilson and look into ordering a knife from him.

BTW Cliff, your review of the South Fork is terrific, the range of work and extensive photographs make it very readable. I'm surprised you're still self-publishing, somebody should be paying you for work of this quality.

For anybody who hasn't seen the review:

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/south_fork.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I take it the qualification "when heat treated right" is a big "if" in your mind .... more so than with many other blade steels, true?

Crucible constantly promotes ease of heating for the particle steels in general and specifically S30V was designed according to Barber for its ability to heat treat by knife makers who often don't have the level of equipment available in industrial heat treatment, specifically often a matter of soak temperatures being too high.

It is hard to see how problems with S30V can be related to heat treatment, and it is amazing to me that Crucible can now take this stand and users accept it in face of the huge contradiction. There is an issue of grindabiity which several people have brought up which may be causing edge over heating, but S90V is even worse in this regard and how come it didn't have even worse problems.

Personally, based on trends I have seen and how problems are reported on the forums over watching this type of thing for over ten years, I don't think it is an inherent problem in the steel as much as it is simply an example of massive overhype. The exact same thing happened to Talonite once it moved off the custom market into production and a lot of people starting using it heavily and watching the edges roll and deform much more easily than steel.

People in general tend to not want to critize customs unless the maker isn't popular, as it is a person and not a company behind the product, plus the knives are more expensive. But when you start getting them to just ordinary guys who will use knives readily and heavily, problems will surface.

It takes a lot to get problems out when you are first because you are fighting the inertia of the hype and you get steamrolled by the makers and users supporting the hype. However once more people start to lend support then the problems are not so easily ignored which leads to more and more people voicing complaints. I generally see problems in email long before they are reported on the forums for this reason.

Crucible still has no data sheet on CPM154 and it will be interesting to see how they compare it exactly to S30V, and how that steel fares on the market. Quite frankly the switch to me is just amazing, it is a complete about face in terms of the marketing of the past several years, what is the next logical step in this pattern S90V -> S30V -> CPM154.

...your review of the South Fork is terrific

Thanks, some sections are incomplete still, the trail section for example was supposed to end with a pair of natural showhows made by the South Fork, but the pictures didn't come out so I have to redo it. I also want to add another section to ease of sharpening with natural and more inexpensive hones, and do some more edge retention work on other media. It is a nice knife, and that style of knife in general is well suited by high carbide steels.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

Personally, based on trends I have seen and how problems are reported on the forums over watching this type of thing for over ten years, I don't think it is an inherent problem in the steel as much as it is simply an example of massive overhype.....

I certainly remember the lofty expectations when S30V first introduced, and the makers who seemed totally caught up in it. Honestly if Crucible had stated from the beginning what the limitations of the steel were, what kinds of uses it was and wasn't suited for, and had stressed the necessary critical steps in heat treatment and manufacture to realize full benefit of S30V's qualities, I probably would have a very different opinion. I guess there's no better word for what Crucible did than "hype" .... and what a shame that is. Things are what they are, the biggest problem is usually when they're represented otherwise.

Crucible still has no data sheet on CPM154 and it will be interesting to see how they compare it exactly to S30V, and how that steel fares on the market. Quite frankly the switch to me is just amazing, it is a complete about face in terms of the marketing of the past several years, what is the next logical step in this pattern S90V -> S30V -> CPM154.

All I recall reading about CPM154 is Crucible says it's easier to finish, cheaper, basically more user-friendly than S30V, pretty much ATS34 using particle mettalurgy. That raises a lot of questions .... but not nearly so many about CPM154 as it does S30V, IMO.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Honestly if Crucible had stated from the beginning what the limitations ...

If you go to a electronic store do you really expect the saleperson to give you an unbiased perspective on the equipment, would you expect them to tell you of better equipment being sold at other stores? Consumers need to be more realistic and as well demanding when new steels are presented and request more materials data, and not simply take what is presented.

Usually only the strong points are highlighted, note the massive hype behind the parallel toughness of S30V which is many times higher than other similar high carbon stainless this was argued by Crucible and then adopted by knifemakers to promote extreme toughness for S30V, now based on what is being seen is this actually a valid extrapolation of that data?

Crucible also constants promotes the ease of machining of their steels, but doesn't note the grindability of the high vanadium grades is really low, so much so that now this is being argued as one of the actual reasons for the problems, where was this information when the steel was being introduced, similar to heat treatment this was one of the promoted advantages not a problem.

[CPM-154]

...it's easier to finish, cheaper, basically more user-friendly than S30V,

Yes, this was the origional promotion of S30V in comparison to S90V, it was not that it was actually a "better" steel, just a cheaper and easier one to use, this was soon forgotton and it started being promoted as the "best" stainless steel, which is nonsense anyway because what a steel needs to be optimal differs from task to task. A steel can be very good for one knife and horrible for another.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

If you go to a electronic store do you really expect the saleperson to give you an unbiased perspective on the equipment, would you expect them to tell you of better equipment being sold at other stores?

Staying with your analogy let me tell you where I disagree, Cliff.

A retail electronics store carries products from different OEMs who in turn purchase parts from suppliers. Let's say Foxxconn supplies motherboards and connectors used in a particular brand on PC sold by the store.

I expect the salesman to promote what he has in inventory, maybe what the manager told him they want to move. I also expect the OEM or wholesaler to have aggressively sold their products to the retailer, based not only on features but profit potential for the retailer. Neither of those steps in the process particularly work in my favor.

Foxxconn however sells to the OEM which, if mostly reputable, shares to an extent my interest in a reliable PC at a fair price. If Foxxconn's products don't live up to their claims the OEM risks being beset by warranty claims, bad reviews and consumer opinion, and declining sales and profitability. The PC maker is actually my first line of defense against any BS or hype Foxxconn may be handing out.

IMO and this is of course a value judgment in part, Crucible's position in the knife industry is like Foxxconn's, not the retailer. The knife maker or manufacturer is the OEM and (again IMO) should be the one really complaining to Crucible if a steel's reality falls short of its hype.

In other words I think people buying knives from reputable manufacturers and makers should expect those manufacturers and makers to act as 'steel BS filters' .... they're the ones who are supposed to really understand the steel and its specs, the ones who machine, heat treat and work with the steel, and they're in a much better position than I am to know what isn't working out as it should.

So I'm not asking for an ideal world at all, in fact I'm probably a bigger cynic about all this than you. I think more accountability lies with the manufacturers and makers .... but do agree that knife buyers should be more discriminating and complain more than they do. I suspect a lot of the problem is that many blade enthusiasts may actually be the least demanding customers, not wanting to scratch or damage a prized possession. That's a lot of the reason I really like your reviews, Cliff, because these things are tools after all.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The knife maker or manufacturer is the OEM and (again IMO) should be the one really complaining to Crucible if a steel's reality falls short of its hype.

While I agree without your analysis in detail, I was speaking more of just the viewpoint of sales in general, we are buying a product here and often asking the people who are selling the product "should I buy this from you" which is naive in general especially when there is no independent checking and cross referencing against other competitors.

Ben Dale is a great guy, very knowledgable about sharpening, so is Sal Glesser, both are also very helpful and easy to talk to. However if you wanted to buy a Sharpmaker or Edge Pro would it be a sensible approach to ask either of them which one would be the best for you? How likely is it that they would suggest the other product?

Both are very high quality, probable the best for each type of sharpener and both have advantages and disadvantages and in general I would suggest asking instead someone like Steve Bottorff about the merits of the sharpeners. No difference with steels, there are also lots of manufacturers, Crucible isn't the only one making powdered metals.

As for the comparison of direct sales in general there are few makers who publically challenge/question the claims made by Crucible, how many accepted the parallel toughness statistic Crucible promoted and started promoting it as well to such an extent that this statistic, which materials texts will actually say is irrelevant with proper tool design (because that axis isn't loaded) became dominant.

Crucible argues now that the problem people are having with S30V is due to factors which contradict the origional promotion yet how many people are taking Crucible to task? Steels also in general have a short lifetime in the "hot" market so a huge promotion which ends up dominating the market but gets problematic feedback in a few years may not be so much of a negative if the steel is switched by that point anyway.

There are makers who I have found to be very low on hype and the information I have exhanged with them tends to be 100% based on facts, they do a lot of R&D and will investigate the steel, heat treatment, geometry, etc. . However it tends to take a lot of experience on your part to be able to make this distinction.

There are a few things you can do though, usually a few difficult questions will separate those that hype from those that are jus trying to make better knives. Ask them (publically if possible) what would happen if you did someone fairly abusive, this is usually really telling. Or ask them what they have done R&D wise, and ask for specific details and performance that you can check.

In other words I think people buying knives from reputable manufacturers and makers should expect those manufacturers and makers to act as 'steel BS filters' ....

Ideally yes but there are other complications and the very public nature of the internet and speed of communication and permanence of what is said also needs to be considered. Do you really want to be the first maker to stand up and say, "Hey I think you guys are wrong.". I know makers who were very critical about Talonite when it first started exploding, however these complaints were rarely made public. Plus Talonite knives were really hot, can you really blame makers for just filling a demand.

I suspect a lot of the problem is that many blade enthusiasts may actually be the least demanding customers, not wanting to scratch or damage a prized possession.

Yes, I give knives to tradesmen all the time and they will do things without hesitation which would get extreme abuse labels by "tactical" users. I handled the Pacific Salt yesterday which my brother has been using, he had been cutting metal flashing and small nails (air nailer, they are soft like a coat hanger, but much smaller).

He loves the knife because it is very rust resistant, doesn't chip easily, and it cuts really well after I converted it to a full flat grind with no secondary edge bevel. Plus it is very light, carries well and is comfortable and secure in hand. His endorsement of course isn't as dramatic as "high speed operator" approval.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

.... there are other complications and the very public nature of the internet and speed of communication and permanence of what is said also needs to be considered. Do you really want to be the first maker to stand up and say, "Hey I think you guys are wrong.". I know makers who were very critical about Talonite when it first started exploding, however these complaints were rarely made public. Plus Talonite knives were really hot, can you really blame makers for just filling a demand.

Some very good points. I suppose a lot of it has to do with the unusual nature of the knife industry and the enthusiast community. Still it's kind of a sad dynamic however we think blame is allocated. Is it the steel makers like Crucible? The knife makers and manufacturers? Or is it the end users? Whatever, something seems dysfunctional in the chain.

Yes, I give knives to tradesmen all the time and they will do things without hesitation which would get extreme abuse labels by "tactical" users. I handled the Pacific Salt yesterday which my brother has been using, he had been cutting metal flashing and small nails (air nailer, they are soft like a coat hanger, but much smaller).

He loves the knife because it is very rust resistant, doesn't chip easily, and it cuts really well after I converted it to a full flat grind with no secondary edge bevel. Plus it is very light, carries well and is comfortable and secure in hand. His endorsement of course isn't as dramatic as "high speed operator" approval.

LOL! Well the company I work for provides security and EP personnel and services around the globe and while some of our people probably do think of themselves as operators, what they actually do with knives sounds a lot like your brother. Some of them I'm sure are blade enthusiasts but mostly they have a tradesman's attitude: if it costs more it should do more, and since it didn't come with a warning not to use it as a screwdriver, can opener, wire cutter, etc. I'm doing it if I need to. I don't know of anyone damaging a knife in a defensive situation, and we've had a few of those, but they bust 'em up pretty good prying open containers, whittling stuff that doesn't whittle ..... one guy even tried some field improvised shoe repair on a client's high heels and snapped the blade on a nice Benchmade. Reminds me of some of your tests, Cliff, just not as scientific ..... and you do wind up with some pretty good information on which knives make the grade in the field doing real work and which ones don't. Tacticals seem to be losing favor with our guys, and Buck folding hunters seem to be becoming pretty popular. In the field lowly 420HC seems to more than hold its own with the premium steels.

 

[Phil Wilson]

HOB, Cliff, Thom, all

I have read all this with interest and I have to respond. I introduced S30V with a couple of articles in Blade magazine a few years ago so I am responsible for some of the “hype” being mentioned here. Some history; At that time Crucible was the only steel company out there that had any interest in making a new steel that had all the qualities of a good knife steel. They talked to several of us and came up with the criteria to shoot for. The main reason for this is that S90V (upgrade for S-60V) was tough to heat treat. The problem was if you wanted to take advantage of the high wear resistance of 90V you had to get it heat treated some where. Paul Bos declined most of the time because the temp required for it was in excess of 2100 F. That was at the upper end of what his furnace could do and still have decent element life. There were also a lot of complaints about how hard S90V was to finish. This is due to the very high Vanadium Carbide percentage in this alloy. With less carbide percentage, S30V is easier to work than S90V, no question about that. So S30V was developed to mainly solve these two problems. They hit the target on both of these in my opinion. It is easy to get RC 60 with S30V at about 1950 F. I think it is easy to heat treat but it does take precise equipment and attention to detail. There is a learning curve on all high alloy steels and things like decarb and quench rate can cause some frustration. It is easier to grind and finish than S90V and this makes it possible for large production runs. This is a bigger deal than most realize. There is now a CPM steel with 4% Vanadium that can be heat treated by most commercial heat treat firms and for any custom maker who wants to buy a furnace and learn to do it himself.
There are now thousands of S30V blades out there in use. Before the introduction of S30V, S90V was the only choice for a stainless CPM and a limited one at that.
The impact toughness and bending strength turned out be a little better than S90V. I have found that to optimize the toughness a heat treat on the higher end of the data sheet range and a subzero quench and temper in the range of 400 to 600 are required. The ideal hardness range is RC 58 to RC61, with 60 being ideal. With this heat treat I can slice thick cardboard, cut rope, fillet a fish (with a very long thin flexible blade), and field dress, skin and quarter and elk with out any noticeable damage to the blade. I like to grind blades thin (.010 to .015 at the edge) and sharpen at about 15 degrees. Sharpening medium can be Silicon Carbide Norton fine or medium stone or the green or red DMT diamond. Remove the burr with a loaded leather strop. I –have- seen fine edge chipping on S30V by whittling dry Douglass Fir and twisting the blade out of the cut. The same thing will happen with 154CM, S90V, ZDP189 (rc66) and BG42. I do not have any VG10 blades to play with so can’t comment on that steel. The edge holding on S30V at RC 60 and sharpened as above is more than 30% better than ATS34/154CM. S90V is another step up and 10V is in it own category. This is all based on rope cutting tests I have done with the knives of the same blade geometry and sharpened the same. My testing is not as precise as what Cliff is doing, but correlates with the data that Spydeco gets with the CATRA machine. Here is the order based on what Sal (Spyderco) has related to me..

440C 360-400
VG10 500-510
S30V 550-580
S90V 750
ZDP 189 750
S125V 1200
VG 10 is not available to the custom maker as far as I know so if we want a steel better than 440C/ATS34/154CM for some applications then it going to be CPM 154 or CPM S30V at this point. Crucible had good representation at the Oregon show this last weekend and they were interested in how the production and custom makers were doing with their steels. They were also prepared to help with any problems and were offering free advice to any who would listen. As has been said many times, the right steel for the application, IMO S30V makes a great cutting slicing type blade where corrosion resistance and edge holding are important.

 

[db]

I just have to say great post Mr. Wilson. Are those results with the steels at the same hardness or are they all different?

 

[sodak]

Thanks for the information, Phil, this is very interesting! Where would 10V fall in with these steels that you've listed?

 

[Phil Wilson]

db, sodak, My comparisons have all been with 154CM, S30v and S90V at 60 and 10V at 63/64. In the Spyderco case I have to assume they were at the hardness that Spyderco normally does their blades. That would be all they have to work with. 10V continues to amaze me. I have been working with a 10V blade ground to .008 at the edge cutting 1/2 rope and the thin edge is doing almost twice the cuts as another one I have at .015 edge. The combination of the carbides, edge geometry and hardness is all working together. Cliffs tests on cardboard are telling beacuse cardboard dulls the blade slower and it is easier to measure when one starts to dull against the other. I think 10V is equal to or better than S125V at the same hardness and edge thickness. Just my feel at this pt.I haven't compared the two directly with the same edge geometry.. PHil

 

[Dog of War]

Thank you very much, Phil, that was very informative. I've heard nothing but good things about your work .... not owning one of your knives, my collection is starting to feel kind of incomplete. I hope to remedy that before long.

 

[Satrang]

I spent some time at the Eugene show and got a chance to discuss many issues with the knife community and the manufacturers. I highly recommend to anyone that has interests in the aspects of knives, especially the critics, take the time to attend the shows. No where else can you get the combined knowledge of a Phil Wilson, Sal Glesser, Crucible, etc in an open environment face to face unfiltered.