Sacramento Meeting

[CJ Buck]

On Wednesday, 3/22 Les DeAsis, Bob Miller, Lisa Sanderson (Buck's inhouse counsel) and I traveled to Sacramento for a meeting.

This is a meeting recap from Chris Michele. Chris was the lobbyist that Buck Knives hired to influence the definition of Dirk and Dagger and to win an exception added to the switchblade law to exempt one handed knives from 653K of the california penal code.

As you aware, on Wednesday of this week, CJ Buck, Les DeAsis, Bob
Miller, and Lisa Sanderson came to Sacramento.
On Wednesday, we met with Larry Brown, Executive Director of the
California District Attorneys Association (the group that represents the
59 elected DAs around the state). By phone, we talked for over an hour
with Jeff Gorell, Deputy DA from Ventura County and the individual who
has proposed legislation modifying Penal Code Section 653k, concerning
switchblades.
We heard from Gorell about the cases in Ventura County and why two
judges have tossed out cases involving "gravity knives" because of the
statutory language that provides switchblades do not include knives
"designed" to be opened by a thumb stud or pressure on the blade. All
of their cases have involved gangbangers who were searched and the
police found folders on them. The police were able to open the knives
with one hand by a flip of the wrist. As far as we could ascertain, the
knives involved were imports.
In addition to reviewing the substance of the cases that have led to
their desire to change the law, we discussed asked about the prevalence
of similar cases around the state. Brown offered to have CDAA send a
note to all 58 counties and inquire whether other DAs have had problems
prosecuting switchblade cases. Gorell also offered to contact several
of his colleagues in LA County and elsewhere. They will share their
fact-finding with us.
In addition, we discussed several options for possible amendments to the
statute that would protect our "exception," while allowing law
enforcement to prosecute gang members. Their real concern is that they
will have to return these confiscated knives and, once that happens,
word will be out on the street that these kids can carry cheap, import
folders and be exempt from the switchblade law.
Brown also inquired of us whether we would be interested in helping them
move legislation that would increase the penalties for use of a knife in
a crime. Under current California law, there are 10-20-30 year
enhancements for use of a firearm in a serious crime (felony). Those
sentence enhancements are mandatory (i.e., not discretionary with the
judge). On the other hand, the sentence enhancement for use of a knife
is 1 year (in the discretion of the judge). They would like to have the
knife industry support a measure to increase the penalty.
From here, we are awaiting draft language from Gorell and Brown, as well
as their research results to examine other possible problems with the
switchblade law. If we are able to negotiate acceptable language for
all parties, we would find a legislative vehicle to enact those changes
and help CDAA push such a bill through the process. In addition, we
should determine whether the industry wants to participate in their
efforts to enhance penalties for use of a knife.
They will forward their draft amendments to me and I will distribute
them. We will decide at that time whether to meet through conference
call or face-to-face. Overall, I think it was a very positive meeting
for AKTI and the knife industry in California.
CDAA wants to work cooperatively with us. We hope that our activities
here in California will serve as a model for AKTI to use in other
states.
Chris


------------------
CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003

 

[Jim March]

CJ, I've been particularly fond of the recent CA reforms and I've noted several times here and elsewhere that Buck played a big role.

So while this thread may end up debating ways and means, I'd hope everyone remembers that CJ and his crowd are the PROVEN "good guys".

In my opinion, go ahead and support the increased penalties for criminal misuse. If at all possible, get an exception for cases where there's "at least a possibility it was self defense".

To clarify: Thaddeus knows someone who was stabbed in the gut, and was bent over in pain while the multiple assailants stood around laughing. The victim pulled the knife from his own torso and proceeded to use martial arts training to go "utterly bezerk", seriously maiming several of the assailants.

A jury found that the guy who was initially stabbed wasn't in enough "continuing danger" to warrant the counter-attack. Admittedly, the guy probably chased the assailants - he went pretty much full-tilt bonkers due to pain, fear, shock and anger.

They put him away for two years.

In this type of case, the enhanced penalties would be a travesty.

One possible phrasing to fix this yet do enhancements: "These enhancements shall be stricken if at any time during the conflict in question, the person found guilty was themselves the victim of an illegal attack".

That way, if you've got a situation where even a gangbanger gets "jumped" and counter-attacks, he might very well "step over the line" and counter-attack beyond what the legal standard of "fear of great bodily injury or death" allows, and he can be punished for that as well as any illegal knife carry (true switchblade, concealed fixed, etc) BUT he's protected from the enhancements.

If however you've got a guy with a knife who does an attack, or mugging, or whatever, cool - nail his butt with the full enhancements.

Does this make sense?

I also recommend you support the same pattern of enhancements for "lethal blunt instruments". I personally witnessed an assault with claw hammers (and I can give you the name of the DA who prosecuted it) and I was once attempted-mugged with a wrench - my knife drove the fool off, no police report. In both cases the objects seemed to have been carried as weapons.

What else...

On knife carry by gangbangers:

Unless you can nail them on "carry of a deadly weapon by someone with a criminal past" type laws, there's not much you can do. Part of the problem is that cheap thubmstud/hole/disk type folders are made of inferior materials that wear quickly. This is especially true of copies of Zytel-type name brand folders but with plastic grips. The blades get loose, but they also get "fast", opening like greased lightning in some cases. The locks aren't too reliable, the blade steel is crud and there'll be blade play, but it's still a serious weapon.

Guess what? You *cannot* keep criminals from getting knives. Want proof? After that recent Pelican Bay prison riot, a total of -=80=- shivs of various types were swept up. Most were metal, and had serious cutting edges. That's the most max-secure prison in the state, and there were 80 knives floating around.

So are gangbanger kids going to carry little 4" plastic-thumbstud crappy knives? Yep. Is there anything you can do about it that does NOT involve harassing literally milllions of people across the state, causing the rift between the citizenry and law enforcement to grow?

NO, other than seriously nail the actual proven criminals. That's where the enhancements come in.

About eight years ago, a friend of mine with criminal background or tendencies was followed for eight blocks across Berkeley, CA by two BPD officers. Why? They were waiting for that one moment when his jacket might obscure his Buck 110 folder in a legal open-carry belt sheath.

DO NOT BRING THOSE DAYS BACK. His attitude for years after was that any BPD officer he ever saw in trouble would be sneered at as he walked away. THAT IS FAR WORSE THAN A FEW GANGBANGERS WITH JUNK CUTLERY.

CJ, please pass this on.

Thanks.

Jim March
Richmond, CA http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw

 

[James Mattis]

Hmmm . . . It sounds like the object may be to craft a "Saturday Night Special" knife law? I have a bunch of thumb-operated folders about me. Many of them are imports, but none of them are "cheap imports." Now how do we write a law that would make contraband out of that $5 POS PRC Enduraclone while keeping the real thing legal? I'm not smart enough.

I have within immediate reach an Endura which I can flip with ease, a BladeForums Native which I can flip with difficulty, and a lightweight Native that I can flip only once in 20 attempts. So what? They all work quickly with a thumb-push.

Did anybody mention that a double action auto with a thumbstud is as street-legal as a thumb-operated knife that can also be flipped? Did anybody try to explain why a "gravity flip" or even a spring-assist is a more evil way to open a knife than a thumb-push? Or simply pulling a kitchen paring knife out of an improvised sheath? The problem lies in the intentions and actions of the user, not the way the blade is deployed.

Since the DAs are talking about 653k, maybe the question to ask is "Do we really need it on the books at all?" as well as "What offender-oriented instead of object-oriented law would better address the problem of willful arterial bleeding?"

Should the law prohibit people with certain criminal records from carrying lock-blade or fixed blade knives at-ready in public, regardless of mechanism or degree of concealment? Should there be more restrictive rules for minors than for adults in full possession of their civil rights?

I'm not sure what effect, if any, that sentence enhancements would have. Assault with a deadly weapon is already against the law, and the penalty is already enough that somebody thinking about consequences wouldn't want to do it.

If I have, in the recent past, passed the background check to buy a gun of some sort (whether or not I actually buy one), is there any earthly reason to restrict me from buying and carrying any pocket knife I want? Could they at least put an exception in 653k for sales to and carrying by "emergency service" customers?

Maybe if a "carry any knife you want outside the courthouse" card required a background check, a multiple choice test, and a one-time fee of $50 or so, one would want to then carry something better than a $5 POS. I'm tossing that idea out without thoroughly pondering whether or not it's a good one, and for whom.

One other thing that should be brought up in any legislative discussion of "switchblades" is that an auto with a "moderate" coil spring, in a "utility" blade as opposed to a purpose-built "sticker," is a more useful pocket knife for old and arthritic hands than a conventional folder with a stiff backspring. The test subject in my office cannot close an Endura or a Buck 110 without a struggle, and treats her Ladybug as a fixed blade, but she can easily operate a Benchmade 3000, closing it two-handed.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[James Mattis]

And, while you were talking to the DAs, did the subject of "dirk or dagger" come up? There is now a split of authority among the CA appellate courts on whether the definition in Section 12020 is so broad that it requires that the prosecution prove intent to use the object as a weapon, if the statute as a whole is not to be tossed as unconstitutionally vague.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[Jim March]

I'm with James on the failure of any ban on cheapos that won't also hit higher-end pieces.

If that wasn't enough, some otherwise quite upstanding adults buy crappy knives. About two weeks ago one of my co-workers defended himself with a truly terrible immitation Cold Steel 4" Tanto Voyager...the mugger didn't bother to check if it was REALLY zytel

. He's now shopping online for an upgrade but still...should he have been disarmed?

CJ, did I ever tell the tale of a lady I once gave a Buck River Rafter Crosslock to, and she ended up pulling it on two Oakland Calif muggers

? Truly hilarious - she was dragging her stroller and year-old kid with one hand, and screaming something at the muggers about "THIS SUCKER'S SERRATED, IT WON'T HEAL!!!". Lol! Oakland PD nailed the clown, the bus driver who had let her off saw the whole thing. OPD was a bit disturbed that she was packing but she explained that the knife was in case she ever had to cut her kid out of a car seat carrier (sheepsfoot). They bought it, didn't charge her AND let her keep the knife, excellent treatment by OPD standards.

My roommate pulled a Nighthawk on three morons on BART once

. Pinned one up against a wall with the knife reverse-gripped at his throat, asked the other two if they still wanted to play. While grinning.

They didn't. Gee, I wonder why?

Defensive cutlery isn't always a bad thing! If it's at all possible to get these fools to realize that, it might help. I've given away five knives to people living in bad areas, so far two have been pulled in defense. No bloodshed, the BGs ran like bunnies. Odd that they were Bucks in each case

.

Jim

 

[James Mattis]

Another thought on the "politically incorrect gravity flip" - It is probably the most impolite way to open a folding knife in the presence of anybody else, the only exception being a fellow knife enthusiast comparing notes on gravity flips. It makes people jump even when you say "I, a non-enemy, am going to flip open this knife to show you how it works." It is even more "startling" than the opening of a switchblade, because the motion is more dramatic.

Besides being impolite, a "flip" is also a relatively unreliable way to open most folders. It doesn't work every time, and so is unsuitable as a combat technique. Since it is impolite for mundane cutting chores in the presence of other people, and unreliable in combat, the best time for folder-flipping is when one is on the phone, on "musical hold" for Technical Support.

It is not, however, desirable, to make all folders "tight" enough that a "gravity flip" is difficult for most users. That is because increased friction or spring tension would also make the knife difficult for people with weak hands to use. I suppose some might argue that a knife should be difficult for a 7-year-old to use, but then it would also be difficult for a 70-year-old to use.

And any degree of friction or spring tension can be overcome by the right combination of speed and direction. If somebody goes to buy a "gravity knife," he's looking for a knife that locks in both the open and closed position, where releasing the lock with the blade held downward lets the blade fall open, or swing open with any circular motion. The standard, if there must be a rule on such things, should be earth gravity - "One G". The standard should not be enough "G-force" to make a fighter pilot black out!

To be continued . . .

------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[CJ Buck]

I wanted to address one issue that keeps coming up. In the position of law enforcement, switchblades are no more lethal open then any other knife. The issue comes from the ability of that "edge" to materialize out of thin air. When an assailant(or suspect) is perceived to be unarmed with fist closed and then instantly is armed with an edge...that is the issue with law enforcement and switchblades. Our discussions were that if there was a bias toward closing, it would take a noticable flip of the wrist and same would announce the approaching edge.

No laws will be perfect here but to minimize the impact on law abiding citizens we make careful compromises.

This make sense?

We will keep updating this here and on the AKTI website. Chris has continued meeting with the CDAA and we are waiting for feedback from DA's accross the state.

------------------
CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003

 

[James Mattis]

Perhaps then the state would prefer one-hand opening by a "gravity flip" to one-hand opening by a thumb-push, since a thumb-push a much broader motion than pushing the button on a switchblade. That logic could lead in unpredictable directions.

Perhaps the state of California simply should not try to impose its own switchblade/gravity standard on knives that have passed muster as "PC" for purposes of importation and interstate commerce, lest manufacturers be forced to make a CA-legal line, an NY-legal line, a WA-legal line, etcetera, etcetera. Especially when it's a matter of spring tension and tightness that can vary from specimen to specimen within one model!

And, on true switchblades, should people with limited strength and mobility in their hands be forbidden to carry what are the most usable pocket knives for their purposes, just because some criminals also have uses for them? A coil-spring switchblade with moderate tension can easily be opened with full control by leaving one's fingers wrapped around the knife when pushing the butting, and letting the blade slip past them. And people don't jump as high when you do it that way.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[SDouglas]

********************************************
Maybe if a "carry any knife you want outside the courthouse" card required a background check, a multiple choice test, and a one-time fee of $50 or so, one would want to then carry something better than a $5 POS. I'm tossing that idea out without thoroughly pondering whether or not it's a good one, and for whom.
********************************************

I actually proposed something like this some time ago in thread titled "What type of Knife Legislation should AKTI support". I didn't address the Test or the Fee but I did propose a Knife Permit that would make it legal for a Citizen who passed a Background Check to carry ANY Knife including Automatics.

------------------
AKTI Member No. A000370

 

[CJ Buck]

Just a quick note to let you know that this is still going. Larry Brown was going to be poling his DA's for any other sensitive areas they had so we could draft legislation to handle them all and not be revisiting 653k anytime soon. Here is our last update from Chris Michele. It was dated 4/12

I wanted everyone to know that Larry Brown and I will be getting together to review their survey and other items sometime next week. He has been extremely busy with legislative hearings the past two weeks.
Next week the Legislature is out for five days for the Easter holiday.

I will let you know the outcome of that meeting.
Chris

------------------
CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003