Samurai and Ninja Sword

Stiletto Raggio:

I had made the assessment you were acquiring your information from other sources, understood. It is not a big deal, I'm not focusing this at you in any way.

I have seen reproduction swords upwards of $1000, and even though you can get an OK sword for that price range, your options are quite limited and I personally don't like them. Of course there are people who like their blades, nothing wrong with that. A well made repro for that price range is a good buy. But personally I dislike them. Guess I'm just a snob.

To assume the straight-bladed Ninja-to as a desirable weapon you would need more study into the concept of Japanese swordsmanship. Early on, straight swords were common, usually considered to have been adopted from Chinese style. By the 11th century they were mostly made obsolete by the development of the tachi, which had become the standardized sword and predominantly a cavarly-type sword, since the straighter blades proved inefficient for their needs.
As far as the priority of the tachi as a weapon is considered, yes it was a sidearm. The bow was often the choice weapon of the early samurai. But that does not mean the sword went unused.

The tachi was the standardized long sword up until the tactics shifted from cavalry to infantry tactics during the Muromachi period. Because of this serious change, what we now know as the katana was developed. The concepts are very close together, but they did not return to straight blades. If they felt a straight blade was more efficient to their styles of swordsmanship, they had quite a long time to redesign it. It was not beyond the capabilities of smiths to make straight swords. If it was, they wouldn't have made any. But, those swords were ceremonial in nature basically. Not battlefield weapons.

In the Tokugawa period the sword I would say reached its prime in the spotlight, and that time period is where it was thought of as the "soul of the samurai." It was more of a status symbol, primarily due to the lack of battle and no real necessity to utilize a wide array of weapons. Swordsmanship reached a peak through duels and other practices, and as I stated in a previous post, ninjutsu was a standardized art for samurai. Still the curved blade was held in favor and was used, while the straight blade, still rare, were still ceremonial in nature. Does not mean one cannot be used to cut, but it does mean that it was considered to be the base of less efficient technique.
(Now this is NOT my perspective necessarily, so don't try arguing with me about it)

In foreign styles of swordsmanship, sure the straight sword could be held in high regard. But ya gotta remember that swordsmanship can be broken down into much more than one category of battle. Styles, techniques, and purposes differed throughout the world to suit their respective situations. We cannot classify everything together and expect to make comparisons and assumptions based on those generalizations.

Shinryû.
 
Robert, you are the source of plentiful katana knowledge! Only few left to say. You may know about them, but I should post to make things clearer.

The straight blades were double edged ones for emperors and aristcrats. They lived their peaceful life in Kyoto, rather a religion center than a political center.
Samurais were not aristcrats so they had to develop amother type of cheap and practical swords.

Katana scabbarded to belt with its edge up, but on horse it had been hanged from belt by strings with edge down. Still I believe katana was side or backup weapon.

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Did you enjoy today?
\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
This subject seems to be getting slightly heated so I will try not to irritate anyone with my ignorance. Continuing with my martial art studies I have studies with swords often. My instructor for ninjutsu provided some insight for this subject. Whether or not there is any fact in this I cannot say. First I will be the first one to say that the teaching of ninjutsu now is definitely modern formed due to the secrecy of the art then. This is truly a lost art. Iga-ryu is supposedly as close to the true form as can possibly be derived ( at least so I'm told). The existence of the Ninja-To is real, however I think that what we think of as the ninjas sword is diiferent than what really existed. The ninja were deadly and efficient so it would stand to reason that a curved blade would be used. I find it easier to draw a curved blade off of my back than a straight one. I would venture that if a specific sword for the ninja existed it would be a less ornate wakizashi. The Ninja were often trained as commando squads for fuedal lords of the time. In fact from some of reading ninjas were used to try to assasinate the Tokugawan family before the unification of the country under one house. These were believed to be from rival lords. I would expect that to keep the expenses down the lord would have identical ninja-tos issued from his own smithery, thus keeping them secret and explaining the lack of distinctive markings between weapons. If I am off base here then I apologise for interrupting the debate.

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SSgt Christopher Wardlow
USAF Security Forces
425th ABS Izmir Turkey
 
I'm afraid there must have been some sort of miscommunication.

I don't think the topic really got heated, just some misconceptions that needed to be cleared.

Also, again, historically it appears the concept of the ninja has been clouded and misinformed quite a bit, particularly by books on the subject.

And I still feel the ninja-to is still a fictional fabrication blown out of proportion to a dangerous level. Do people think that the standard sword was not good enough? The "specialized task" BS doesn't fly either.

Shinryû.
 
Hey, Folks...

The only time you may have found a straight blade in ancient Japan was if someone was hiding it in a staff. Even then, a blade hidden like that was probably only of knife-length.

I have it straight from the horse's mouth (in person) from one of the highest-level Japanese Bujinkan instructors (who is very highly regarded as a master of other arts in Japan), that the ninja-to straight sword did NOT exist. He said it in a funny way: If a guy was carrying around a straight blade, people would immediately say, "Hey LOOK! A NINJA!" Carrying a straight sword kinda kills the whole art of invisbility that way, eh?
wink.gif


Besides, I believe that the ancient ninja of Japan WERE Samurai who had to do some dishonorable (according to Bushido) deeds and certainly didn't want their brethren to find out about it.
biggrin.gif


(BTW, the term "ninja" was invented much later -- any early mention of ninja-like activities usually referred to "shinobi.")

Peace,

Brian.
 
Straight blades in fact did exist, primarily the earlier blades of the Jokoto period, and various ceremonial swords in times following up until the present. And I'm sure some of them saw some restricted use, but the very vast majority were not made for such activities.

Any "hidden" blades are more or less of novelty, not much to see use. Of course there were exceptions, a popular one being tanto hidden inside mountings resembling a fan.

Also I would think many folks need to rethink the concept of ninja. You are right most of them were samurai. But the "dishonor" thing I feel is incorrect. As ninjutsu was a standard art, it was utilized as a military fashion even in times of peace. Was not an assassin or stealth warrior as people make them out to be. They are not of a special secret society. They are not born and specially raised for the job.

There are too many books out there by supposed "masters" and I've even glanced at a couple. They have a tendency to spread a lot of misinformation very quickly, particularly to people who want or wanted to be a part of a "ninja boom."

But in any case, it's difficult to discuss this with some people, as they claim the lack of documentation and everything was due to secrecy and special activities and allll sorts of other simple excuses. But oh well.

Everyone should be both a teacher and a student in their lives.

Shinryû.
 
Robert,

Excellent post. I do know that straight swords did exist -- just not the ninja-to as seen in movies today. When I wrote "dishonorable," I was being a bit facetious and light-hearted in my post. I agree that a separate class of "ninja" clans didn't exist. Just like a guy in the army can be a commando or sniper, a samurai could have been a "ninja." Even then, who really knows for sure if anything like it ever existed? It defines a set of activities or an attitude more than a historical sub-group of individuals in my mind. Most of us in the Bujinkan laugh about the "ninja thing." Some may have originally been attracted to the art by the idea, but that vanishes quickly once you train for awhile.

I train in Bujinkan because I am amazed at Hatsumi-sensei's skill in the art. I simply stive for that level of skill. I enjoy it and it works for me. It's his movement and skill that I pay attention to, not the history. Also my own teacher's skill as a martial artist. "Ninja-schminja" -- I'll never be one nor do I care about that. LOL. The character for "Nin" represents an attitude of perseverance in oriental culture and is used in Buddhism and elsewhere in general. It's a way of living and looking at life that anyone can apply. "ja" means person, so a "person who perseveres" is a ninja in that sense. Anyone can be one in that way -- we all are simply by virtue of waking up everyday and getting on with our lives.

But the art isn't for everyone; there is no single best martial art in my book. I agree that too many people in many arts get caught up in histories and/or fantasies -- and many arts have convoluted histories at best...but that's a whole other discussion, and I don't want to keep pulling this off topic.

Best,

Brian.

 
As Robert mentioned earlier, it was in fact easier to make traditional Nihon-to curved. This is because the differential heat treatment used in the construction of the blade is in fact what gives the blade its curve. The quicker cooling ha (edge) forms a larger crystalline structure than that of the slower cooling mune (spine). The relative expansion of the ha compared to the mune forces the blade to curve itself.

This is also probably why many straight traditional Nihon-to are double edged Ken.

QYV

 
I spent some time studying the Bujinkaan arts and don't want to get into a debate as to the validity of it as a fighting system. As for the sword and the length and what not I have had it told to me that it had more to do witht hte lack of funds found with most Ninja. A lot of sowrd blades they used would be of inferior quality and so you saw rough forged blades that don't sport the legendary razor edge common to other Nihon-To. Also the word TO often connotates a straight blade. Other times the sword used by ninja would be a broken samurai's sword. As for length I don't think there was a standardized length. A shorter sword makes for better fighting in close quarters. Some ninja houses would have a gradually sloping cieling that would eventuall get very short. Samurai would come in and draw there swords attemtping to use them on the ninja. The short cieling and tight quarters would restrict the longer weapons allowing the ninja to use their shorter weapons to make quikc work of the samurai thus protecting their home.
 
Ninja houses are a form of entertainment that have been popular for a while....

The samurai did not have the sort of relationship to the ninja you describe.

Crude swords did not need to be made, there were quite a few decent ones available. And it is not hard to pick one up off a battlefield. People did it all the time. There is no point in making a crude inferior weapon. If you couldn't get or use a decent sword, you would most likely not learn how to use the sword. Ninjutsu was a martial art. It was not a secret society, it was not a social class. And it was not a specialty art that taught a wide array of weapons and fighting.

I'm not trying to debate...but people hear so many misconceptions and learn so many things falsely...particularly in things like these.

Shinryû.

And also, the term "to" designates sword only, not a straight sword.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 08-19-2000).]
 
Were these Ninja guys aliens?

That might explain their need for specialized housing and use of bizarre weaponry. Also, their apparent need for secret society and a secret war with the oppressive and omnipresent Samurai, who were committed to wiping the evil alien Ninja from the face of the Earth. Apparently the Samurai succeeded.

Ninja have been pretty much banished to the fanatasy world, and have little ability to take on Human form. Some shape-shifting samurai may have magically taken on the form of the invisible Ninja from time to time, but only to kill other Samurai and let the Ninja take the fall.

Paracelsus, wondering about what sort of books Ninja Wannabes like to read. Maybe they should try a little more reality and less fantasy

(Preparing for the Attack of the Ninja's)

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 08-19-2000).]
 
Ya know what's funny? If you tell a regular Japanese citizen (one who doesn't train in any martial arts) that you train in ninjutsu, they start smiling. Why? Because so many cartoons over there portray them as superheroes. That's the impression they have of ninja. This has happened to me first hand.

It would be like telling someone over here that you are training to become a Power Ranger. LOL!

Now, as to whether the nuinja existed as a secret group, nobody can say "yea" or "nay" for sure, so debate here would be pointless and fruitless. After all, if they were good at keeoing secrets, we wouldn't know about them would we ?
wink.gif


Peace,

Brian.

 
One problem is that I've heard the "secrecy" thing discussed before...that is a cheap excuse that can be given for practically everything from the ninja to the existence of specially bred flying snapping turtles in Brazil. Once you give credibility to something you feel is secret, you will have to owe credibility to quite a few other things.

There is evidence ninjutsu did exist. There is evidence that it was a standard martial art among the many others. You can believe whatever you want to though, there are lots of people like that out there.

I probably respect the concept of the ninja a lot more now that I have a factual understanding of them and their real place in society.... It's a shame they are degraded by misinformation, even though it looks upon them in an ultra-glorified light.

Shinryû.
 
Laugh out loud. "Specially bred flying snapping turtles?" That's a good one. Next time some ninja wannabe starts running his mouth about how no one knows for sure because of ninjas being so good at keeping secrets I'll have to use that on him.
 
Brian, most Japanese don't know Power Ranger. They were "Ju Ragner" consists of five members in Japan. Power Ranger "Zeo" is "Oh Ranger", Power Ranger "Turbo" is "Car Ranger", and Power Ranger in space is "Mega Ranger". Sorry off topic, only hoping some more smiles on who are interested.

Seriously, I agree with you in conclusion. Ninja or Ninjutsu put smile on a Japanese's face in most case. Hatsumi sensei is known to so few people here.

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Did you enjoy today?
\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
In reference to Robert's reply to my post:
I stand corrected then....I guess I bought into the literature I was given to read a little too much. I am not pawning off my ignorance or laying blame for my beliefs on my teachers. This is how I was taught. If I came off as full of **** I am sorry.
 
The "to" in "ninja-to" (as well as "gendaito", "gunto", etc.) does not refer to straight blades so much as to single edged blades. It has the same kanji as the Chinese "dao" which means "knife" and also refers to the single-edged Chinese saber. "Ken," in Japanese, refers to straight, double-edged swords, and is analogous to the Chinese "Jian" or "Gim".

The Japanes term for straight-bladed, single-edged swords is, I believe, chokuto, and these were primative, archaic swords pre-dating the development of the Tachi.

The single, most important point to consider in this argument has been said a couple of times, but warrents repeating:

It is EASIER to make a curved-bladed sword than it is to make a straight one using traditional Japanese techniques, so the argument that that ninjas would have used straight-bladed swords because they were cheaper or easier to make is moot.
 
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