Sayoc Kali??

>Sayoc Kali is very much at the forefront of blade technologies...

Jeff, there is no doubt that Chris has developed a "comprehensive curriculum" for the use of KNIFE but "forefront of blade technologies"? Some of the more simplistic & direct approaches are often more effective. In real life, the use of knife is NOT limitless as it is conveyed. Why learn it, if you can't use it?


>YES. And this is coming from somone that has studied Modern Arnis, LAMECO, Kombatan/Arnis de Mano and Inosanto Blend.

How well versed are you in those other systems? The only profound difference is it's approach to knife instruction.

Make no mistake that my criticism is for the love of ALL Filipino Martial Arts NOT to discredit Chris' research. I respect his dedication and preservation of the indigenous arts from our homeland. Obviously my comments are from the perspective of an outsider but having been involved in the FMA for many years too, it offers a sense of balance.

Yours in the Arts,

John G. Jacobo
BAKBAKAN International
 
Dear John,
hello and thank you for your interest in Sayoc Kali and allowing me a chance to respond to your questions.

First off, to answer your questions about blade technologies... what makes Sayoc Kali different than other FMAs is the understanding of tactical use of a blade... Unlike many curriculums which emphasize knife dueling or one on one knife confrontations, Sayoc Kali focuses application of the blade... as an example, our basic introduction to a template, will allow a user to be able to circumvent conventional clothing to allow access to vital targets which would end a situation relatively quickly as opposed to arm/hand/limb cuts which cause a target to bleed, but not necessarily incapacitate them. In addition, this focus develops in a user, the ability to have a strong ability to counter a knifer's targeting of vital areas on the body. We teach many grips to use... these grips allow for ease of cutting and the ability to position the blade while manuevering an opponent into a disadvataged position...in addition, a blade may be used to perform other tasks aside from just cutting and thrusting. Sayoc Kali addresses these issues.

As i have taught in Chicago, New Hampshire, Washington, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Connecticut and NYC, many law enforcement personnel and military personnel have told me that they find my presentations useful and applicable to their work and training.

Ummmm... as for the quote of Lameco, Kombatan, etc?? I'm sorry John, i did not post that... as i cannot lay claim to that background.

i don't know about other people, John. I can only talk about myself. I've been training in the martial arts since 1971. I've been teaching in the martial arts since 1976. I've taught all over the country, and while i don't lay claim to knowing everything well, i feel pretty comfortable in my application of what i have learned in Sayoc Kali.

What makes Sayoc Kali truly unusual is this. We do not train to defeat an "untrained" individual... our approach has always been to be able to defeat the "trained" and "untrained" individual. It means little to be able to defeat an individual who has little experience or training. When one has experience in combat with an individual who is seriously trying to hurt you or trying to kill you, then that is a whole different story. Most of the senior instructors in Sayoc Kali are very skilled fighters. If you look at the background of these individuals it is clear that they bring with them a wealth of experience. We often train together, and work hard to bridge the gap from training drill to fighting.

I've never had the good fortune to meet you, i don't believe, John. Can i ask why the recent questions about Sayoc Kali?

Have you ever attended a Sayoc Kali workshop? I'd think that if you attended you might have a chance to get a better understanding of what we do.

I understand that Sayoc Kali and its flavor may not be what everyone looks for. But it works for me, i'm very happy in my training, and those who have seen me, and met me are very pleased with what i offer.

I assure you, i smile a great deal, and can demonstrate the curriculum effectively.

It is too easy to look at a curriculum and look at drills, but without understanding the application of technique or principle, those are nothing but lists on pieces of paper.

Honestly? i'd be happy to share my knowledge, and perhaps one day we can meet in friendship and work together to promote the filipino martial arts.

Sincerest of respect, Guro Jeff

http://www.tribalbladefightingarts.com



>Sayoc Kali is very much at the forefront of blade technologies...

Jeff, there is no doubt that Chris has developed a "comprehensive curriculum" for the use of KNIFE but "forefront of blade technologies"? Some of the more simplistic & direct approaches are often more effective. In real life, the use of knife is NOT limitless as it is conveyed. Why learn it, if you can't use it?


>YES. And this is coming from somone that has studied Modern Arnis, LAMECO, Kombatan/Arnis de Mano and Inosanto Blend.

How well versed are you in those other systems? The only profound difference is it's approach to knife instruction.

Make no mistake that my criticism is for the love of ALL Filipino Martial Arts NOT to discredit Chris' research. I respect his dedication and preservation of the indigenous arts from our homeland. Obviously my comments are from the perspective of an outsider but having been involved in the FMA for many years too, it offers a sense of balance.

Yours in the Arts,

John G. Jacobo
BAKBAKAN International
 
Dear John,
just for curiosity's sake, would you mind sharing with us your background in the martial arts? have you studied many systems? have you taught much? who are the people you practice with, etc..?

sincere respects, Guro Jeff
http://www.tribalbladefightingarts.com

by the way, if you get an opportunity, i'd be happy to have you as my guest in my upcoming seminars... i have seminars scheduled in Bloomington, IN in august, and San Francisco, CA in september.

i'm also making plans for a seminar in Las Vegas.
 
>what makes Sayoc Kali different than other FMAs is the understanding of tactical use of a blade...

Your curriculum without question delves in areas that aren’t generally covered in other styles. However, my take on added complexities is both good and bad. The understanding of “tactical use” accompanies knife training regardless of system... Sayoc Kali just goes into greater depth.

>personnel have told me that they find my presentations useful and applicable to their work and training.

I would hope so being an authority on blade use and defense.

>Ummmm... as for the quote of Lameco, Kombatan, etc??

I know, I should have been clearer with quoting. Obviously it was not directed to you. Nevertheless, thank you for your background.

>We do not train to defeat an "untrained" individual... our approach has always been to be able to defeat the "trained" and "untrained" individual.

I’m confused, so then your approach is for both. After all an “untrained” person can be your toughest opponent.

>It means little to be able to defeat an individual who has little experience or training. When one has experience in combat with an individual who is seriously trying to hurt you or trying to kill you, then that is a whole different story.

Isn’t that a bit of a contradiction? In the street (not in a ring) your fight is majority against the untrained. It's 90% Mental and only 10% Skill.

>Most of the senior instructors in Sayoc Kali are very skilled fighters. If you look at the background…..

I’m sure you have many talented instructors but I am not questioning anyone’s skills. I typically don't care about background and years of training because as we’ve seen to often…anyone can fall victim. In the Martial Arts community, that doesn’t hold up well either. In some circumstances I ask just as I did (re: Lameco, Kombatan).

>Can i ask why the recent questions about Sayoc Kali?

You are correct, we have never met. So, what recent questions are you referring to? This was the only post directed to Sayoc as per the thread. If you are referring to the questions on my post “Curriculum Based Drills…” then the answer is simple. Rafael was one of two people to view an opinion in great detail and we have continued to communicate on the matter. It was not originally directed to Sayoc. Sure, I disagree and are skeptical with some of the material but as you evolve as a Martial Artist you begin to challenge things...it's all part of education.

>Have you ever attended a Sayoc Kali workshop? I'd think that if you attended you might have a chance to get a better understanding of what we do.

No. I’m sure I would enjoy it because I enjoy FMA.

>But it works for me, i'm very happy in my training, and those who have seen me, and met me are very pleased with what i offer.

I couldn’t agree with you more, it is of personal choice.

>I assure you, i smile a great deal, and can demonstrate the curriculum effectively.

>>Honestly? i'd be happy to share my knowledge

Is it me or do I sense a tone of sarcasm? May I ask why you seem to be justifying yourself again? Have you taken my criticism to heart?

>and perhaps one day we can meet in friendship and work together to promote the filipino martial arts.

People who know me in the FMA arena know that I am the friendliest person around and even when engaged in competition, I am full of smiles. So, I wouldn’t see it any other way but in friendship unless provoked.

>just for curiosity's sake, would you mind sharing with us your background in the martial arts? have you studied many systems? have you taught much? who are the people you practice with, etc..?

I usually don’t care to share my experience publicly. However, since you seem to have an interest in my background, I’ll be glad to tell you. I have been FORMALLY training in various arts for over 20 years. My early days included the traditional arts of Han Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do & American Freestyle Kickboxing. For the past 11-12 years I have been devoted to the fighting arts from my Heritage. My Father introduced me to Arnis de Mano but that was rather brief. I studied Panananadata for over 3 years and have dabbled in Doce Pares / DP Multi-Style, Lameco, Modern Arnis and DBMA through seminars and with close friends from these respective styles. My home is with Bakbakan studying the Concepts & Strategies of the late GM Antonio “Tatang” Ilustrisimo. Unlike some of the Ilustrisimo factions back home, our current practice is more structured and has evolved in it's training methods. This was through the contributions of Master Tony Diego, Master Topher Ricketts, the late PG Edgar Sulite and my instructor Master Rey Galang. Today, my training now includes Reality Based Self-Defense and Military Combatives specifically the WWII Close Combat system known as Defendu under Clint Sporman and Ralph Grosso (Senior Instructors under legendary Carl Cestari). Among the other instructors who were instrumental in my progression; GM Won Keun Bai, Laurent Dably(2-Time World Heavyweight Kickboxing Champ), Guro Dong Cuesta, GM Cacoy Canete, GM Dionisio Canete, PG Edgar Sulite, Guro Marc Denny, Master Amante Marinas and Guro Robert Rivera. My teaching credential is rather short, only 3 years but by choice.

>if you get an opportunity, i'd be happy to have you as my guest in my upcoming seminars...

I live and train in New Jersey so please feel free to keep me posted on local events. I would be happy to attend as a participant NOT as a guest. I can be reached via e-mail at bakbakan@aol.com.

Yours in the Arts,

John G. Jacobo
BAKBAKAN International
 
Hello Everyone,

Great threads going on here and it is about time, this forum seemed to be dying a lingering death. Mr. Jacobo, interesting questions, I hope I can add some light to the information already presented in both of your threads.

The “transition drills”; these drills are designed so that a person coming in from another style or a person with no skill can “transition” into Sayoc Kali. These drills are not all about fighting. But rather a method or tool to help develop attributes. Each of these drills works a particular aspect in our training. Transition drill #1 is an introduction to wiping and clearing away an opponent'’ counters on our attacks, although in this drill he is not otherwise aggressive. Transition drill #2, teaches us more about an opponent who is controlling the flow (so to speak) and we are then recountering on their counters. So on and so on. There are also a variety of Vital templates, which are targeting systems for the various blades and applications therein. From each of these drills there are isolation’s, free flow, and that includes unrehearsed attacks with energy and intention, sparring methods, force on force training etc. As with many other FMA’s styles the way to introduce a student to their art is through structured drills that teach them the fundamentals from which they can then advance (with some skill) into sparring etc. I definitely agree that many systems neglect the aspect of true combat in their applications, neglecting the “caveman approach” or wild “berserker” attacking you. I have not found this to be lacking in Sayoc Kali. As for watching any drill performed on camera, it is difficult to capture any intent or reality on something that is published for public consumption. Unless a drill is first taught, and developed by additional methods of resistance, counters, etc a student does not always have the where with all to move to full force on force training, without ingraining bad habits.

From watching various drills presented in Mr. Galang’s video series, it would appear that the Bakbakan method is similar in the training approach that other systems, including Sayoc kali, use to train and develop their students. Sparring is a specific tool that can be used to enhance an individuals level of understanding in how to apply their art in a combat attitude. Although many stick players wear to much gear and often rely on it for their protection and just beat each other creating a dueling mentality. Clearly this is a two edged sword in regards to a student’s progress. On one end enhancing, on the other creating a false sense of security in the gear. How does the Bakbakan work on this? I think that a good comparison on enhancing a students progression is the way that various systems can enhance each others training methods.

I hope this helps and continues the thread in a positive way.

Train hard, it is the Way.

Steve L.
Kayan Dalawa Guro Sayoc Kali
 
To Mr. Jacobo of Babakan,

I like your attitude and your belief in reality based training!
Some of your instructors I'm very familiar with. I remember Rey Galang from the late 80's and early nineties. I believe he should be familiar with Tuhon Sayoc and Tuhon Ton Kier. As also I have met Guro Marc Denny of the Dog Brothers who I respect as a fellow FMA and person.

I've met some of the Babakan guys here and there as well, so maybe we have already met. I have the utmost respect for their curriculum and their training. I won't comment whether it is too simple or too complex - it works for them and that is all it needs to be.

You ask many questions about the complexity of Sayoc Kali and all I can say is that many martial artists from other systems say the same things about FMAs in general.

However, the only thing I would disagree with is how simple many people state real life defense or use of the knife truly is. Now this is regardless of style or even FMA but people in general. For one person to say Sayoc Kali is too complex, a TKD person MIGHT say is FMA is also. The next guy says the knife is nothing next to a gun and so on. So amny levels of the same thing... trying to understand the unknown.

Are learning a few drills sufficient? Like my brother said- any thing that isn't *real* is a drill. I would differ to the real world as many often cite; the real world as the true testing grounds. The contradiction is when that sample scenario of an untrained knife assailant being the most dangerous... untrained is the confusing term... actually it is the unknown that is the *most *dangerous. The unknown is complex.. it is a myriad of possibilities. The unknown is what many attempt to simplify by denying there is a million possibilities in one straight thrust to the trachea or the kidney. The unknown is not knowing what to do before, during, and after. The unknown will hurt those who want to simplify an opera of hurt into a few notes of denial.

It isn't *simple* until one learns the complex. We're not really talking about being simple then, we are talking about understanding the unknown. To do otherwise is taking a gamble.. why even train if one isn't willing to risk learning the unknown?

Tuhon Sayoc understands that the knife appears simple but the actual engagement is a complex series of problems that one must be familiar with to even have a 1 percent chance over their assailant.

One cannot simplify until they understand how complex something truly is. So many teach something simple and stay simple and give false confidence. Is someone who grew up on the streets using a knife... simple? Are we willing to bet our lives on that?

You cite the great Illustrisimo.. who was, as so many who have seen him in action first hand have states.. a very complex fighter yet *he* makes it simple! If you look at your own Babakan history, please correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Tatang's art so layered and complex that several people had to literally sit down and look at tapes of him in action just to deconstruct what to Tatang was personally a simple twist here, a pivot there? It was simple to him because he understood the complex- the only way he understood the complex was that he lived it.

So to conclude, yes there is simplicity but a beginner must go through the complex training or else go through life and death battles ala Ilustrisimo to make sense of this perfectly simple art.

Sayoc Kali is a Feeder based system. Meaning the battle is from within ourselves... the path to efficiency is from inside out. The opponent, skilled or unskilled is someone who happened to get in the way.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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To Brandon,

Please read the posts before this. The question refers to how simple some answers are to those who pose the correct questions. Usually the new students who come to our seminars or classes ask why the rigs or multiple knives.
We explain the feeder based mentality and in five minutes the student learns that there is a training purpose to the multiple knives. One that could save their lives.
And it didn't have anything to do about carrying eight knives on them.

Not the past but the future,
--Rafael--

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I've really enjoyed reading the threads recently, especially the great discussion between Tuhon Kayanan, Guro Jacobo, and the Kuntawman.

I just wanted to let everyone know that there's a "teaser" clip showing Tuhon Tom Kier demonstrating some isolations from the Sayoc 3/9 template. You can find it on the "public" multimedia page on the Sayoc website.

http://www.sayoc.com/multimedia.htm

Great stuff!
 
i have to say that at first i was a little prejudice to the "template" which i didnt know what that means. but after i saw the mini movies, i see that a temtplate is what i practice and i call it "striking/cutting/attack patterns". these are very useful because we need to have our attacks to be preplanned to come out smoothly, especially when you are talking about fighting with weapons because the nervousness of being inn a fight (especially a life or death fight) will hurt your ability to think and move.

oh and isnt that greg alland to the left of chris sayoc on the movie called "Classic Clip 01"? he cant even hide behind having some hair and those yoko ono glasses!
 
I'm also posting this here, because it seems to apply.

John,

Just thought maybe I could clear some things up.

To judge the effectiveness of a systems training methods, by seeing two low level students doing a few drills, is not sound investigation. I know many people in your organization, you certainly don't want that done. Of course, I never would do that.

As far as various responses go, in the Sayoc Kali Methodology:

Reactionary: A response of the body to physical injury, a physiological response.

Reflexive: A response given with no conscience thought, and in response to the subconscience perception of danger.

Conditioned: A train response to a given attack

Correct: A trained response which is the least likely to result injury to yourself.

Now of course we want our reflexive response to be correct. But before someone is properly trained, it rarely is correct. So we try to install correct response too given stimulus, and install it to such a degree that it becomes reflexive.

Conditioned response is easiest to understand, if it is thought of in this way. Take all the responses you can think to train against a given attack, pick the one you think has the best chance of working with the best results, you will then have Correct response.

As far as training with intensity and reality.

Once you learn the correct responses through the transition drills, we increase the intensity of the drills and than break up the order of the movements within each 10 count drill so we are free flowing within that drill. And then we do the same for all drills, free flowing within the 100 count drill. The next step is total free flow, feeder on receiver, while we force the receiver to also become a feeder, in other words both men become very offensive and try and control the flow, this is usually when more blades are introduced, and when we get the first aid kits out, (preparing for our suture and medical management lessons). What you saw on the site is just the very beginning stages of this evolution.

Gumagalang,
Tom
 
Rafael,

Why the change to formalities? John will suffice.

You wrote:>You ask many questions about the complexity of Sayoc Kali…

I believe my one comment was rather vague and on added complexities not necessarily “the complexities of Sayoc Kali”.

>However, the only thing I would disagree with is how simple many people state real life defense or use of the knife truly is.

I believe the statements are referring to the tools and techniques, which I too believe can be simple. The difficulty defaults to your Psychological preparedness to effectively utilize these tools when necessary in that given environment or time of engagement.

Your views and analogies on “complexities” are well thought. I can relate to some of them.

>Is someone who grew up on the streets using a knife... simple?

No but I would have to say that they are a small minority. I could be wrong but I think statistics would show that most knife attacks were initiated by the untrained based on the placement or degree of injuries and weapon used with the exception of prison assaults.

>You cite the great Illustrisimo.. who was, as so many who have seen him in action first hand have states.. a very complex fighter yet *he* makes it simple!

Tatang was a complex fighter because of his skill, mindset and ability to read his opponent’s move or counter. However, the Ilustrisimo system is far from complex. The movements are based on efficiency with maximum effectiveness in mind.

I’m not certain which account you read regarding Tatang’s teaching complexity. However, I do recall my instructor, Master Christopher Ricketts and the late PG Edgar Sulite stating that he was a fearsome fighter and a “bad” teacher. You are correct, his techniques had to be dissected & analyzed carefully to understand it’s proper use and effectiveness because the techniques were ingrained or second nature to him. Thus, it appeared complex.

Steve,

Thanks for your added clarification of the drills. I will reply to your inquiry shortly.

Tom,

I felt it was appropriate to acknowledge your persistence on this matter. Thanks again for your input.

Yours in the Arts,

John
 
John (I was in my formal mode in my last post),

I think we're making progress here- much typing to pretty much saying the same thing.

"Thus, it appeared complex"

When I mentioned Tatang Illustrisimo's 'complex' fighting method- I believe you summarized what I was talking about when you said that it took Mr. Ricketts and Galang to be able to deconstruct what he was doing. It was simple to Tatang but not to the untrained eye. I believe this is the case with 99 percent of effective martial arts. A new student has to go through what seems like complexities to get to the simple truth. Thus the path through the complexities are what makes the real life application simple.

I feel the templates, the transition drills are throwing people off because it seems new and complex to them. However, once they find out why they are doing these things the path seems logical and simple.

I'd also have to add that some students adapt to the transitions rather quickly and others take longer. It maybe that they have prior training in other FMAs or they just gravitate to the drills easier. To those students the transition drills are simple while another student might have trouble just getting his knife deployed.

Again, it's a good thread you started (even though it wasn't intended to be about the Sayoc system) and maybe it's gotten some others aware of Sayoc Kali who may not have gotten any info about it before.

best,
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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John,
Thought I would break up the posts here.

If you check out the documentary or records of prison systems like Pelican Bay facilites you will see that the prisoners have their own 'Templates'. Gangs have their own systems passed down differently than what we may practice but they have their own systems. There's the 36 Blocks (I may have the name incorrect by now) of the 5 percenters which are similar to FMA destruction and JJ moves made for the gang initiate. They have surveillance film of about thirty inmates going through what seemed like harmless exercise moves in pelican Bay. Authorities later discovered it was a series of shiv attacks done in exercise form. They also have surveillance of 'sparring' sessions of inmates going through what we would call freeflow.

Afterall, all our old school FMA elders came from the streets.
:)

The untrained to me is someone who may not have gone through an official school or organization but that does not mean they were not trained in the ways of killing. That is the individual who should be in our mind's eye when we train.

As per those who are truly first time knife attackers, Guro Chung was making the point that our FMAs training *should* adapt to the typical attacker who has no clue. We should know what vital organs to cover, deflect and shield most often as trained individuals. Our awareness makes fighting a truly raw knife wielder much easier contrasted to someone who is skilled at it- whether from a school or from the streets. If we have doubts, then we should reaccess why. This is the time we should all be trying to cover all the bases.

Most often we get to their knife before they do. For most attacks can be countered before the knife is drawn.

best,
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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Hey Rafael,

Absolutely, I think everyone has contributed some valid points and expressed their knowledge in vast areas of training. I too believe many will benefit from this thread.

After all, the purpose of this forum is to also provide education to both old & new players of the FMA.

BTW...the documentary sounds quite interesting!

Yours in the Arts,

John
 
It's often shown on cable- last showing was about a year ago.

Btw, the 36 blocks is different from the Pelican Bay knife which is from the Mexican gangs (Pelican Bay is on the West Coast) . There's been several articles on the 36 blocks in magazines usually about inmates in the East Coast. I reread my post it appeared like I was talking about the same thing.

best,
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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