EdgePal... I just thought I'd ask... is a convex edge inherently bad? And if you're working within the constraints, and trying to keep it the same, of that convex edge, are you going to be removing ALL that much material? I understand that if you place inherent value in a "flat" bevel, then you'll want to undo the convexing... but why not just run with the natural tendencies?
Sharpeners..Spyderco or Lansky?
- Thread starter JTR357
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Lucky Bob, I use convex edges on my knifes because it is the best type of edge for me.
I think it is the best type of edge for most people – but not for people who works a lot in wood.
But, the discussion is mostly about straight / flat edges – and most people say that this is what they have – but mostly edges is slightly convex, they just do not know it because they must measure it up to see it…. That is my experience.
But 2. If you use a convex edge the problem is still there. When you sharpen your convex edge it will be more and more convex, from slightly to steep convex. This means that your knife will be “duller and duller” = the edge angle will increase every time you sharpen your knife. You cannot come around this problem.
For most people today this is really not a problem because they do not use there knifes so often (I think I will be spanked now).
I think that you must understand that when I live outdoors, I live outdoors for 4-6 month at the time, no electricity and so on – and my knifes is the only tools I have to solve all my problems. This means that I use both my knifes every day in many different ways –and when I use a knife – it will start to get dull, the drops you know.
In my way of life I then must decide what is the best type of edge for me – and how shall I maintain the edge during the time I am outdoors – in EXACTLY the same edge angle as I started to use. I do not like to have a knife that changes the edge angle during the time I use the knife. If I have a knife like that, I must learn to handle a new knife every day. That is not practical. The knife shall do exactly what I like it to do; I make all decisions about that – not the knife.
I have a third knife with me hanging in my knife-belt and that knife have absolutely flat edge and it is for special small wood work (knife-tip engravings).
So, the answer is, I use convex edges and it is perfect edges for just me.
I think it is the best type of edge for most people – but not for people who works a lot in wood.
But, the discussion is mostly about straight / flat edges – and most people say that this is what they have – but mostly edges is slightly convex, they just do not know it because they must measure it up to see it…. That is my experience.
But 2. If you use a convex edge the problem is still there. When you sharpen your convex edge it will be more and more convex, from slightly to steep convex. This means that your knife will be “duller and duller” = the edge angle will increase every time you sharpen your knife. You cannot come around this problem.
For most people today this is really not a problem because they do not use there knifes so often (I think I will be spanked now).
I think that you must understand that when I live outdoors, I live outdoors for 4-6 month at the time, no electricity and so on – and my knifes is the only tools I have to solve all my problems. This means that I use both my knifes every day in many different ways –and when I use a knife – it will start to get dull, the drops you know.
In my way of life I then must decide what is the best type of edge for me – and how shall I maintain the edge during the time I am outdoors – in EXACTLY the same edge angle as I started to use. I do not like to have a knife that changes the edge angle during the time I use the knife. If I have a knife like that, I must learn to handle a new knife every day. That is not practical. The knife shall do exactly what I like it to do; I make all decisions about that – not the knife.
I have a third knife with me hanging in my knife-belt and that knife have absolutely flat edge and it is for special small wood work (knife-tip engravings).
So, the answer is, I use convex edges and it is perfect edges for just me.
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I do not mean to seem to question your post, but I am a little confused. You state in one sentence that you use convex edges and then in another sentence that you maintain you edge with your guide using exactly the original flat angle you started with. Are you saying you do different knives differently?
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I find your argument concerining straight edges to be perfectly sound, however I don't think I agree that using a clamp angle guide system for routine touch up is the best choice on so many different levels. I'm talking about the 15 second kind of touch up you are talking about.
A touch up with this amount of ease lends to it being done often which lends to a very healthy edge, virtually eliminating any kind of "heavy sharpening". The problem I have is that it requires a couple of minutes of set up time to do the 15 second touch up. I'm not nocking your tenaciousness in maintaining a perfectly flat bevel. I did the same for some time, however after the novelty of being able to produce a hair popping edge on demand wore off, I soon found myself loathing dragging out the ole clamp, and my edges began to suffer, requiring more work between sharpenings.
It became apparent to me that I had to come up with something different. I tried steeling for a little while, but I wasn't satisfied with the edge retention after steeling. I have just recently began using ceramic crock sticks that I have adjusted to around 33 degrees. I have four EDC pocket knives, three of which needed a touch up. Each knife took, you geussed it, about 15 or 20 secondes. And so the convexing begins. Now here is my argument. I am convexing my edge right at the edge to anywhere between 33 and 36 degrees. The depth of steel that I am convexing is not even detectable. Just as you say, little by little, the convex edge will get larger and larger, however It will be quite sometime before I notice, and I will only notice at sharpening time. The crock sticks will little by little become less effective at the 33 degree angle. When I have found the sticks to be more work than they are worth at the 33 degree angle, the convex part of the edge will still be virtually undetectable with the naked eye. At this point(probably next year), I'll raise my crock stick angle to about 37 degrees, and for a while, this will give me some more 15 to 20 second sessions. By the time this becomes a pain, I might be about to see some trace of the convexed part of the bevel, but it will still be such a small cross section of the edge that it still won't effect the performance of my thin edges, other than they will be a bit stronger than when I first set the original bevel.
Eventually, as you say, I will have to break out the clamp guide and thin out the edge again, and with as little steel as is removed with ceramics, this job won't take more than five or ten minutes on my system.
With all that said, not even touched is the argument that everytime you use a clamp guide system, you create a new micro-bevel. I don't necessary agree with this argument, however I take special precations to clamp my knife in exactly the same place and I tighten my clamp bolt all the way. I do however feel that there is still some micro variance between uses that would make a fifteen second touch up on a consistent basis difficult to obtain, unless you are using a micro bevel, but then that would just be similar to the growing convex edge problem. Your micro bevel would grow and grow to the point that you would have to thin it out again.
Edit to add: I was typing all of this before I saw your answer. :foot:
A touch up with this amount of ease lends to it being done often which lends to a very healthy edge, virtually eliminating any kind of "heavy sharpening". The problem I have is that it requires a couple of minutes of set up time to do the 15 second touch up. I'm not nocking your tenaciousness in maintaining a perfectly flat bevel. I did the same for some time, however after the novelty of being able to produce a hair popping edge on demand wore off, I soon found myself loathing dragging out the ole clamp, and my edges began to suffer, requiring more work between sharpenings.
It became apparent to me that I had to come up with something different. I tried steeling for a little while, but I wasn't satisfied with the edge retention after steeling. I have just recently began using ceramic crock sticks that I have adjusted to around 33 degrees. I have four EDC pocket knives, three of which needed a touch up. Each knife took, you geussed it, about 15 or 20 secondes. And so the convexing begins. Now here is my argument. I am convexing my edge right at the edge to anywhere between 33 and 36 degrees. The depth of steel that I am convexing is not even detectable. Just as you say, little by little, the convex edge will get larger and larger, however It will be quite sometime before I notice, and I will only notice at sharpening time. The crock sticks will little by little become less effective at the 33 degree angle. When I have found the sticks to be more work than they are worth at the 33 degree angle, the convex part of the edge will still be virtually undetectable with the naked eye. At this point(probably next year), I'll raise my crock stick angle to about 37 degrees, and for a while, this will give me some more 15 to 20 second sessions. By the time this becomes a pain, I might be about to see some trace of the convexed part of the bevel, but it will still be such a small cross section of the edge that it still won't effect the performance of my thin edges, other than they will be a bit stronger than when I first set the original bevel.
Eventually, as you say, I will have to break out the clamp guide and thin out the edge again, and with as little steel as is removed with ceramics, this job won't take more than five or ten minutes on my system.
With all that said, not even touched is the argument that everytime you use a clamp guide system, you create a new micro-bevel. I don't necessary agree with this argument, however I take special precations to clamp my knife in exactly the same place and I tighten my clamp bolt all the way. I do however feel that there is still some micro variance between uses that would make a fifteen second touch up on a consistent basis difficult to obtain, unless you are using a micro bevel, but then that would just be similar to the growing convex edge problem. Your micro bevel would grow and grow to the point that you would have to thin it out again.
Edit to add: I was typing all of this before I saw your answer. :foot:
First let me say I'm now a free hand sharpener and rarely use any of the systems I have now.
Those are only the hole settings on the Lansky clamp it is much more adjustable than that by how you attach the rods to the hones. It is my opinion that the Lansky clamp is the best clamp out of the three systems, and DMT has the better hones even though they aren't as adjustable as the Lansky hones but they do work with the Lansky clamp.
True but I beleive there are many more choices of Lansky hones and considering you can use both DMT and Lansky hones interchangably there is even more choices than with the Gatco.
That was the main thing I didn't like about the Gatco rod/hones, and what makes the Lansky system even more adjustable.
Wasn't even a thought for me, same can be said for DMT's rod since you switch out the hones from the holder.
True but even some of the Lansky stuff can be hard to find.
All three systems really do work about the same way. I'm sure if you can use the Gatco you can use the other two just as well. All three are very good systems with some small differences. Witch one is better really probably depends on the person useing them more than any real difference between them.
I agree. They all work. It seems that all of the systems have advantages and disadvantages. I will stick with the GATCO mainly because I have the money invested and from what I can see the advantages of other systems versus the disadvantages of the GATCO versus the money I would have to spend for something else versus my success with the GATCO add up to a wash.
The Edge Pro is the system I would buy if I sharpened more than I do and if I had the money in the sharpening budget. If I was into sharpening as a hobby in and of itself I would steer toward the Edge Pro. I would pair that up with a Spyderco Sharpmaker if it offered more angles for maintenance.
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Not to piss off anybody but I do not like any of the guide systems I use a 10 inch jewelstik for touch up and if the knife is real dull I go to a good soft arkansas stone then the jewelstik and if I really get fussy i might even hit it with a leather strop. I skin alot of animals a year and have had great luck with this
That shouldn't piss anyone off. It works for you. There are a lot of methods for sharpening a blade. Even within a system or with simple bench stones and hones there are inumerable variations.
Nosetotail, the clamping system you are talking about have fixed sharpening angles, that means, as you say, that you get a new micro bevel every time you sharpen the knife, it is invisible, but it is there anyway. To compensate this I use a sharpening angle screw instead of fixed angles. With this sharpening angle screw I can adjust the sharpening angles in step of 15/100 parts of one degree – and use this possibility to avoid those micro bevels – if I need to or like to.
The same thing can you do on a Lansky if you use the vertical part of the guide rod to adjust the sharpening angle. To do this, you need a magic pen so you very clear can se what you are doing.
On Gatco this is impossible because of the built in fixed guide rod.
Lansky, Gatco and DMT is very nice sharpening tools and they all give you very good edges – if you know how to use them.
If you use a secondary bevel, this bevel is very personal. The angle on the secondary bevel is depending on just your way of using the knife. You “balance” the edge and your way of using the knife with the secondary bevels angle.
Normally the secondary bevel holds 1-3 degrees above the main bevel. Lets say that you start with 2 degree above main bevel. When you use your knife it feels a little dull for you. Then you go down to 1,5 degree on the secondary bevel - and now the knife works as you like it to do. Let say that 2 degrees angle and your knife gets dull to fast for you, well, make a secondary bevel on 2,5 or 3 degrees – and now the edge holds for you – this is the “balance” I talk about, it is a personal thing. This means also, at least in my mind, that the angel support you use shall be able to do this adjustments = steps in, at least half degrees both up and down. Most systems cant do just this.
Then, as I say above, I do not like my edge to change even slightly. When I am outdoors the edge shall be exactly as I like it to be, always. But that is I. The knife shall always perform what I like it to do. I do not like to press a little harder and so on. I like the feeling that I make all decisions, not the knife. I like to know my knife.
We talk about very small variations on edges here. I think that for most people this is something they never even notice about their edge because they do not use the knife so often = they never learn to know theirs knifes personality.
But, for a person who uses the knife many hours per day 365 days a year, they notice every small variation on the edge and some times this small variations can makes problems for them.
The principle is still the drops of water on the stone. Everything you do (and not do) give consequences on the edge. If I do not understand that – and what this consequences are – I get in trouble sooner or later – and I must pay for it with, for example, removing a lot of material from the edge, or, I got a very dull knife.
To get an edge absolutely perfect is impossible – and now I talk about microscope checking of the edge. There is always something that makes the edge not perfect, this what ever you are doing to it – or a machine is doing to it. If you can agree with me in this point – the consequence is that when I sharpen my knife I must have a goal to come as close as possible to the perfect edge. If I do not use a support for the sharpening angle every time I sharpen the knife – I will come further and further away from the goal.
I can make an intelligent decision that this, in just this moment, do not matter for me – but I must always later pay for that decision.
There are no shortcuts in sharpening. You must always do the job and follow the law of psychic.
The first 20 years or so I sharpen my knifes by freehand and I was good at it. But in my way of life (I lived outdoors for about 4-6 month at the time) it is necessary to trust my knifes, and edges, with my life sometimes, and I never know when this situation is coming up. The consequence of this is that my knifes, all the time, must be so sharp as I like them to be.
My discussions are always from outdoors perspective because outdoors is the place where edges normally get dull. The spot where your edge gets dull is also the most important spot to be able to get the edge sharp again. It do not matter if you have a grinding workshop at home, the knife get sharp there – but dull in another places. The spot where your knife gets dull is also the spot you must be able to maintain its sharpness. It is the spot where you decide how long life your knife shall have.
The problem with this is that at home you have time to do the proper sharpening, outdoors, there is often not so much time for it because when you use the knife, then you have a job to do, the edge will be duller and duller because of the job (drops on the stone) = you must be able, during this job, to maintain the edges sharpness. If you shall butcher fish, lets say 100 fishes in glacier cold water, your hands will be very cold, you drop the knife and it gets dull - you must be able to sharpen the knife, same thing if I butcher an mouse during rain and storm, perhaps even snow. That is the point where I am standing when I discuss this because my life looks like this (at least my earlier life).
Thomas
The same thing can you do on a Lansky if you use the vertical part of the guide rod to adjust the sharpening angle. To do this, you need a magic pen so you very clear can se what you are doing.
On Gatco this is impossible because of the built in fixed guide rod.
Lansky, Gatco and DMT is very nice sharpening tools and they all give you very good edges – if you know how to use them.
If you use a secondary bevel, this bevel is very personal. The angle on the secondary bevel is depending on just your way of using the knife. You “balance” the edge and your way of using the knife with the secondary bevels angle.
Normally the secondary bevel holds 1-3 degrees above the main bevel. Lets say that you start with 2 degree above main bevel. When you use your knife it feels a little dull for you. Then you go down to 1,5 degree on the secondary bevel - and now the knife works as you like it to do. Let say that 2 degrees angle and your knife gets dull to fast for you, well, make a secondary bevel on 2,5 or 3 degrees – and now the edge holds for you – this is the “balance” I talk about, it is a personal thing. This means also, at least in my mind, that the angel support you use shall be able to do this adjustments = steps in, at least half degrees both up and down. Most systems cant do just this.
Then, as I say above, I do not like my edge to change even slightly. When I am outdoors the edge shall be exactly as I like it to be, always. But that is I. The knife shall always perform what I like it to do. I do not like to press a little harder and so on. I like the feeling that I make all decisions, not the knife. I like to know my knife.
We talk about very small variations on edges here. I think that for most people this is something they never even notice about their edge because they do not use the knife so often = they never learn to know theirs knifes personality.
But, for a person who uses the knife many hours per day 365 days a year, they notice every small variation on the edge and some times this small variations can makes problems for them.
The principle is still the drops of water on the stone. Everything you do (and not do) give consequences on the edge. If I do not understand that – and what this consequences are – I get in trouble sooner or later – and I must pay for it with, for example, removing a lot of material from the edge, or, I got a very dull knife.
To get an edge absolutely perfect is impossible – and now I talk about microscope checking of the edge. There is always something that makes the edge not perfect, this what ever you are doing to it – or a machine is doing to it. If you can agree with me in this point – the consequence is that when I sharpen my knife I must have a goal to come as close as possible to the perfect edge. If I do not use a support for the sharpening angle every time I sharpen the knife – I will come further and further away from the goal.
I can make an intelligent decision that this, in just this moment, do not matter for me – but I must always later pay for that decision.
There are no shortcuts in sharpening. You must always do the job and follow the law of psychic.
The first 20 years or so I sharpen my knifes by freehand and I was good at it. But in my way of life (I lived outdoors for about 4-6 month at the time) it is necessary to trust my knifes, and edges, with my life sometimes, and I never know when this situation is coming up. The consequence of this is that my knifes, all the time, must be so sharp as I like them to be.
My discussions are always from outdoors perspective because outdoors is the place where edges normally get dull. The spot where your edge gets dull is also the most important spot to be able to get the edge sharp again. It do not matter if you have a grinding workshop at home, the knife get sharp there – but dull in another places. The spot where your knife gets dull is also the spot you must be able to maintain its sharpness. It is the spot where you decide how long life your knife shall have.
The problem with this is that at home you have time to do the proper sharpening, outdoors, there is often not so much time for it because when you use the knife, then you have a job to do, the edge will be duller and duller because of the job (drops on the stone) = you must be able, during this job, to maintain the edges sharpness. If you shall butcher fish, lets say 100 fishes in glacier cold water, your hands will be very cold, you drop the knife and it gets dull - you must be able to sharpen the knife, same thing if I butcher an mouse during rain and storm, perhaps even snow. That is the point where I am standing when I discuss this because my life looks like this (at least my earlier life).
Thomas
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I understand completely what you are trying to say. You need to be able to "find" your edge on demand, so you ensure that it is right where you left it over and over again. Since you don't just use your knives everyday, but rely on them for your survival you need at all cost to know the edge will be there to refresh any and everytime you need it which is often and for a seemingly indefinate amount of time. That certainly puts much more value on consistency.
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I prefer the Sharpmaker to the Lansky, but that's just my personal preference. The Lansky or Gatco is probably more versatile. I use an Edgepro Apex for my sharpening, then a Sharpmaker between sharpenings. And to be honest, I go a very long time between sessions on the Apex- the Spyderco does a great job keeping my blades sharp.
If you keep 'em maintained I'd go with the Sharpmaker. But if you routinely reprofile or sharpen a lot of very dull knives, the Lansky will probably be a lot faster.
If you keep 'em maintained I'd go with the Sharpmaker. But if you routinely reprofile or sharpen a lot of very dull knives, the Lansky will probably be a lot faster.
I have no particular experience with the Sharpmaker but I am going to get one. I have a lansky and while it does a pretty good job on small blades it doesn't do well on big blades in my opinion.
I have several beckers and kabars that just do not "fit" the system.
I usually use a motor drive "chefs choice" to take a dull blade down (re-profile), and use the lansky to put the final edges on.
I have several beckers and kabars that just do not "fit" the system.
I usually use a motor drive "chefs choice" to take a dull blade down (re-profile), and use the lansky to put the final edges on.
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Just want to add that I have a Lansky Standard kit, and hardly use it. I take the hones and use them freehand.
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