Sharpness 'rant'

L

LaMess

Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Messages
120
I'm pretty new to these forums and well aware of my relative ignorance. I say that so any reader can substitute humility and curiosity for any percieved arrogance.

With that disclaimer I am totally confused by knife reviews that exclaim about how sharp a knife is. If it is not 'out of the box' sharp can't we just sharpen it? When I read that somebody dressed 12 whitails and a moose before sharpening a knife I am completly astonished. I would touch up my blade maybe 40 or 50 times if I can extrapolate. Am I missing something completely?

I like working with wood. There are few greater pleasures than a sharp plane blade slicing off unbroken curls of transluscent wood. To maintain an edge that will do that you must sharpen early and sharpen often. A polished edge is important so I like an 8000 grit Japanese water stone. Edge holding obviously is important since it's nice to do a little cutting betwen sharpening (planing plywood is a real pisser) but every blade gets dull.

Reading here it took me awhile to figure out that a polished edge is not always desirable and some people like to finish with my starter stone - a fine India. It Chafes me but I'm going to try leaving some knives with saw teeth and see how it works.

Anyway enough blather. It just seems when someone says a knife is good because it is sharp the implication is that sharpening is bad. All knives get dull. If you can carry a knife you can carry a sharpening tool (quick insert humility it really is a question).

Please set me straight. Thanks

Lynn
 
Lamess - I pretty much agree with you. I like my knives to be shaving sharp, i.e., they will shave hair off my forearms without chaffing my skin. Hair popping sharp is nice, but it rarely lasts long, and bringing a blade back to hair popping sharpness in the field is difficult for me to do with the portable sharpening implements I usually carry (medium and fine diamond hones like DMT and EZlap). Also, edge durability comes in as a higher prioity for me than sharpness alone. A hair popping edge that chips out on a moose's leg bone really grates my cheese. I would rather have a knife with a more durable edge geometry that I have to touch up every so often than one too fragile to survive my mistakes, e.g., hitting bone, dropping onto or cutting into rocks, etc. And I'm not talking about chopping blades because that's a whole different can of worms. I will say one thing though, and I live by this, "a dull knife is not your friend." Keeping a blade sharp enough to do its job is the wielder's number one responsibility. Anyway, my two cents.
 
The whole "sharpness out of the box" thing is basically mentioned for two things - firstly (most importantly), it's a QC issue. If it's blunt out of the box, just the same as if the action on a folder is tight or if a carbon blade isn't oiled, it reflects on the QC of the manufacturer or supplier (or other third party in some cases). Secondly, a lot of people *will* just buy a knife and use it straight out of the box. If the edge is blunt/chipped/deformed/wired, it'll annoy them and again reflect in thier mind the quality of that maker/supplier. The second point is mostly aimed at people new to knives. Not everyone was born with a knife in one hand and a waterstone in the other remember.

*My* personal sharpening rant is the proliferation of Lankys/Sharpmakers/other pre-set sharpening tools. There's no skill or fun in simply swiping a blade through a pre-set "v". It's as bad as using those electric knife sharpeners my mother used to have. What's so difficult/expensive/time-consuming in spending a while getting to use stones hones and strops?
 
I'm with you that I would never dress multiple deer without edge touch-up, but I might go for an entire hunt without doing it. Since I am always the guy with the best and sharpest knife my knife might get used on two or three elk without my normal TLC. Elk are roughly the size of a horse. If you have a knife that can clean three elk between sharpenings it is a heck of a blade. I don't generally expect that out of a knife, but it does offer extra value.

I carry a pocket medium diamond hone in my pack when I hunt elk. I don't want to use it in the middle of cleaning an animal, it is real messy. I would be likely to touch up my edge between animals given half a chance. A coarse edge really cuts through hide well. A thinner edge works better for seperating fine tissues. If you have to split bone it is best to have a really tough blade as well as sharp. I like BG42 for a good combination of sharpness and toughness.
 
shortgoth, I agree. (edit: I agree, but at the same time,..) People do so much whining about factory edges...like they're never going to sharpen it again, anyway:rolleyes: I buy a knife for it's design. If it comes with a great edge, fine. If not, no big deal.

Hey! don't knock those v-sharpeners:mad:, I've got stones and strops, too, but that Sharpmaker is the handiest thing ever for quick touch-ups. Learning to sharpen by hand takes time. Who has time? We're all too busy screwing around on the internet:p
 
No your on the money. The sharpness out of the box is a quality control issue as others have said. If you get a high end knife with really tough steel like BG-42 or even ATS-34 if its real hard, and its dull as a butter knife, its really a huge pain in the butt to have sharpen it right away. Also some customs have really different blade profiles, and its a shame to mess them up when you will hardly use them. But who wants a dull knife. Certain defensive type knives will be carried and really used lightly if ever and it would be nice not to have to start out by having to grind away on a tough steel, just to get a sharp knife that should have arrived that way. Yes, I too would touch up after using a knife. Its just some guys like to see how long the edge can last.
 
I think the out-of-the-box sharpness says volumes about a knife manufacturer. Obviously anyone who really uses their knives will certainly dull them and have to resharpen them. But if a company sends a knife out of the factory with a dull edge it raises a few red flags:
Why did'nt the maker sharpen it?
Do they not care if their knives are sharp when the customers buy them?
Are their knives difficult to sharpen because of the steel used?
If the maker did'nt take the time to sharpen the knife, then what other details were ignored?

As it was said earlier, a dull factory edge says "lousy quality control, lack of attention to details, and no pride in the product".

You can always sharpen a nail or a tack but I would'nt want a box of blunt ones.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
Owen, I only got on the 'net in '96, I had plenty of time before then, and given the number of people that will spend 4-8 hours a day watching TV, I'm sure they can find 1/2 hour a day to practice :)

As for "v" sharpeners, they're the sole reason I've had friends give me knives to remove chips, change bevel angles, and even simply sharpen in a couple cases.

As for "touching up" edges, I do it obsessively whenever I use a knife for more than a single cut, mainly because even as a non-hunting non-camping suburbanite, I never know what it might be needed for next. From opening a letter to slicing up cardboard to altering jeans to carving wood to hacking through planks to trimming fingernails (Seriously, a girl I knew once did this), there are a thousand uses for a sharp knife but only one use for a dull one - binning it. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. My British Army survival knife is pretty much just a sharpened prybar and will never be brought to shaving sharpness, but there's nothing a Busse Battle Mistress or custom machete can do that that thing can't at a fraction of the cost.
 
I don't understand the knock on V-sharpeners. Why does it cheese people off if others want to save time? Do your benchstones sharpen serrations? Can you honestly say that you keep your angles on a benchstone as perfectly as on a V-sharpener? I find it dubious that anyone can keep an angle better free hand than they can on a V.

There's no "fun" or "skill" in using a V sharpener? I find it very fun to touch up my knives on my 204, and I'm still building my skill with it after over a year of use. If you think that a V sharpener is anywhere near the same league as those cheesy kitchen sharpeners then you haven't spent much time on a V. V sharpeners lend themselves to interesting technique and skill and while they level the playing field for novices, they still allow the advanced user to develop incredible skill.
 
thinkOfTheChildren (love that nick): Level the playing field? It's not a competition you know. :)

But as someone that tends to abuse whatever knife comes to hand (being an electrician) and have friends that do they same (construction workers, mechanics, other electricians), I often need to remove chips, re-profile tips (clip-point style tips tend to lose up to the first 4mm very easily), and sometimes completely change the bevel angle. You can do these with stones & hones, but you can't do it with a "v" system. EDIT - I just recalled a thread stating a specific problem with v-sharpeners rounding off tips and people having to develop a special technique to ensure they get sharper rather than duller. Just a slight tangent again since this thread started out with an out-of-the-box sharpness rant, it's worth remembering that those first-time users are always told to get a 204 or Lanskey by the majority of the forumites. A newbie with a dull blade that then uses the 204/other v-system will only make the tip worse.

As for exact bevel angles, the human eye/hand co-ordination is much better than you might think. I'd say I can get it to withing one or at absolute maximum two degrees constant, and for general purposes, one or two degrees make no difference. I don't say I can get a more perfect angle freehand, but I can get the exact angle I want. I seem to recall the 204 has two possible angles - 40 and 30 degrees. What happens if you want a 45 degree or a 10-15 degree? Again you need to use stones and hones anyway.

That's why I'd advise anyone to skip out the middle man and go straight to freehand. YMMV of course.

ANOTHER EDIT - as for serrations, part of my stones & hones are two pen-shaped devives. These are diamind hones, on a steel that's half-circular in cross section, the flat side for flat blades, the round side for serrations. One also has a fine groove going down the round side for sharpening fish hooks, or going back to an earlier comment, nails and tacks.
 
Shorgoth I agree. I learned when I got into knives that there was no shortcut to actually learning how to sharpen. I contatct James Mattis and he told me that the sharpmaker worked well, but to learn now when i am getting started, how to use stones/benchstone style dmt stuff and a handamerican strop handle all of my knives. I am going to purchase a sharpmaker as for quick touch ups in the warmer months (when I have less time) are much more convenient. Convenience is probably why most buy the sharpmaker, and the fact that is it cuts paper smoothly it is sharp PERIOD. I dont agree with the latter statement obviously, and I have razor points on all my knives. :eek: Good luck.

JC
 
Originally posted by shortgoth
thinkOfTheChildren (love that nick)
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Thanks

I often need to remove chips, re-profile tips (clip-point style tips tend to lose up to the first 4mm very easily), and sometimes completely change the bevel angle. You can do these with stones & hones, but you can't do it with a "v" system.
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True, V sharpeners aren't good for restoring a tip, but I have no problems removing chips with mine. Also, with the new diamond rods coming out for the 204, reprofiling will be quite easy. Changing the angle with these will be easy. I am not claiming, however, that a V sharpener is the only thing anyone will ever need.


I just recalled a thread stating a specific problem with v-sharpeners rounding off tips and people having to develop a special technique to ensure they get sharper rather than duller. Just a slight tangent again since this thread started out with an out-of-the-box sharpness rant, it's worth remembering that those first-time users are always told to get a 204 or Lanskey by the majority of the forumites. A newbie with a dull blade that then uses the 204/other v-system will only make the tip worse.
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This is a problem with technique, not the system. In the video and the manual, Spyderco and Sal are clear about using light to moderate pressure. When I first started, I stupidly thought, "well harder must be better." In pushing too hard too fast, one can draw the point off the side of the rod, rounding it. Even when doing this pretty hardly, I didn't see the difference until after a couple times. So I wouldn't say your characterization of newbies dulling their knives further with a 204 as accurate.

The same thing would happen, btw, if you were to draw your point off the edge of a benchstone repeatedly. As I said, it's a problem in technique.

I seem to recall the 204 has two possible angles - 40 and 30 degrees. What happens if you want a 45 degree or a 10-15 degree? Again you need to use stones and hones anyway.
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True, I don't think the 204 is the end-all-be-all, but I think it's a lot more than you're giving it credit for. It's great for what it does, but it can't do everything. You yourself state how you need multiple parts in your sharpening set to do everything you need. Everyone has to build their own sharpening kit based on their needs.

Originally posted by Jameson
I am going to purchase a sharpmaker as for quick touch ups in the warmer months (when I have less time) are much more convenient.
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So you haven't actually used one?

Convenience is probably why most buy the sharpmaker, and the fact that is it cuts paper smoothly it is sharp PERIOD. I dont agree with the latter statement obviously, and I have razor points on all my knives.
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Convenience, and proven results. The fact that you think that it can only bring a knife to cut paper smoothly infers one of two things to me:

A. You've never used a sharpmaker
B. You've never properly used a sharpmaker

The 204 can get knives a lot sharper than just cutting paper smoothly. In fact, I can get my knives a lot sharper than I've ever needed them to be. I no longer usually go to the final stages as I like to leave a slightly coarser edge with more microserrations.
 
LaMess :

If it is not 'out of the box' sharp can't we just sharpen it?
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Yes, however restoring the performance of a blade that had been properly sharpened is very different from one that was not. While it is true that you do have to sharpen knives if you use them, one that is poorly ground from the factory can actually require a complete edge reset. This means that you have to fully grind out the edge, sometimes dropping it back quite a bit to remove the hollows in the bevels. Without power equipment this can take about an hour. I would like to see additional commentary on knives that are not that sharp NIB concerning how difficult it was to get them sharp. A knife that just has a small burr is very different from one that has uneven, possibly burnt, edge bevels with hollows.

... I would touch up my blade maybe 40 or 50 times if I can extrapolate. Am I missing something completely?
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People who do finish work with wood have a much greater standard of "sharpness" than the everyday knife user. Chip knives for example are sharpened constantly with use to insure smooth cuts, you can't have the wood fibers tearing. However, if you are just cutting a piece of rope, or slicing through a piece of cardboard then this is not really a concern. Plus, the easier sharpening is for you, the more you will do it.

Many people look at it like a chore and thus their blades will get very blunt before they sharpen them. I sharpen a lot of knives for friends. The vast majority of the time when I get them they are so dull that you can pull them across your hand with enough pressure to drive the blood out of the contact region without any danger of cutting your skin. A knife in that condition is basically a scraper, and not a good one at that.

-Cliff
 
I am not good at freehanding knives, and I don't want to damage the cosmetics. I bought an Edgepro, and it's the best favor I ever did for the knives. Plus, I am learning about sharpening, and learning things gives me insight into this hobby.

My knives live the suburban life. I work in an office and use knives for opening envelopes and UPS boxes. I like the mirror edge of the 4000 grit polishing tape.

My wife, on the other hand, is not a knife knut, doesn't want to become one and couldn't care less about whether a knife is a two buck paring knife or a handmade custom! She grabs what is close by. I bought her a Kersha Boa, and sharpened it to a mirror also. (I read in another thread that Mr. Hossom doesn't think 440V can be polished due to the vanadium content. You can see your own eyes when you look at my wife's bevel, is he talking about micro imperfections?) Anyway, it would kill you to watch my wife open a cardboard box. She hammers at it, twists the knife like a prybar and thinks a knife is "cheap" if she can't use it like a laser beam. The Boa looks NIB and it seems to re-sharpen easily. Besides, it keeps her away from my Microtechs.

BTW, Ben Dale now sells 1200 grit ceramic sticks which are good for touch-ups. It doesn't seem to mar the mirror edge, and a quick strop afterward makes them shaving sharp. You have to get to them before the edge goes really dull.
 
I started sharpening with Arkansas stones many years ago, and they worked just fine. I bought the 204 when they first came out and I just couldn't re-profile an edge, where do you get those diamond sleeves? I now primarily use the Edge Pro. Recently, I bought the Skarb and it is ok for small blades, though not near as quick as the Edge Pro. I think that it is difficult to beat a belt sander, IMHO. It really doesn't take that much practice to learn all you need to know. A convex edge is a good using edge that really holds up, IMHO. Iknow that I'm going to be in the minority here but I don't care that much for the Sharpmaker 204, it's just too slow for me.
 
Well I think the advocates of the 204/"v"-systems and the freehand style are going to have to agree to disagree. I personally wouldn't touch another "v"-system with a barge pole (after trying a few including the Lanksy and the 204), but I can see why some people swear by them.

As I originally said, they're good for people who collect/use folders and want to keep them sharp, but I don't rate them at all for doing re-profiling, repair, or anything other than a folder.

As for the need for a multitude of stone and hones, not at all. I have a lot because I use a lot. For convenience, I'd rather carry a 2"x1"x.5" "pocket" diamond sharpener (which retail in this country for about £5, US$7.50 equiv.) if I *really* needed to touch up blades while at work. And this single sharpener would be enough to do the same task as the 204 is intended (folders, just touch-ups), so no need for a multitude at all if you're that way inclined.

Of course, one thing so far unmentioned is pricing, a 204 retails in this country for £50, US$75 equiv, before we even get to the diamond hones for it. You can pick up the aformentioned pocket sharper for 10% of that, or a two-sided whetstone for the same £5, my setup cost just over the £50 of the 204, but it will do anything and everything I need to do with a blade.

Also just to clarify I only own a handful of folders, and will probably only buy another half-dozen or so more until I find the right one for me. I never used to need a folder at all as I carried one or more FBs at my old job and never did (still don't BTW) rate folders for self-defense.

Previously, I've used my stones and hones on everything from a tiny little 1" folder to a broadsword, cheap POS blades to ceramic kitchen knives, pretty much every concievable grind type and bevel angle, but it would be impossible for me to do so with any "v"-system.

This, along with the enjoyment I get out of freehand sharpening as opposed to the dull repetitive task of using a "v"-system, is why I don't advocate them to anybody.

As always, YMMV.
 
Hi Owen :)
Originally posted by OwenM
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People do so much whining about factory edges...like they're never going to sharpen it again, anyway:rolleyes:
Well, I confess, I've complained about BM (and some others as well)edges many times, mostly on BM forum. Like Cliff said, it can be time consuming. I've spent over an hour on several BM M2 blades thining the edge to my liking. Those were above 30 degree measured with on the edge pro. Some of the BM blades were 20-21 degree on the edge-pro. It took around 10 mins to polish them... As you can see it's a significant difference. Especially when I get more than 1 blade at a time. I have to spend several hours sharpening... Don't get me wrong, I do like sharpening, but still, would've been nicer to get something that wouldn't require that much of the work.
Now, if one needs an hour of grinding with Edge-Pro, to remove the same ammount of metal with Spyderco sharpmaker would take forever...
Other than that, sure, the factory edge will go away, and you have to sharpen it anyway :)

P.S. I touch up or strop my EDCs couple times a week, seemt to be enough for my needs.
 
I agree with Cliff on this one (except that it often takes me several hours to get a completely dull knife sharp). Having to sharpen a new knife, that I just paid good money for is never fun, especialy if the steel is a hard stainless or the edge bevel angle is way off or the grind is uneven. It is sort of like buying a new car that won't run because it is so far out of tune. If the knife maker can't or won't properly sharpen their products I will buy something else (I have no shortage of knives that I want - in fact the list gets longer by the day).
If the blade was properly sharpened by the factory, I almost allways have an easy time resharpening it. Just my 2 cents.
 
Originally posted by frank k
I agree with Cliff on this one (except that it often takes me several hours to get a completely dull knife sharp).
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You are quite patient!

A bench grinder or belt sander, set up with proper grits, is so fast that I can't imagine sharpening a large knife (anything past 5") without one.

Quite literally, I can take a fully dull machete, from 14" to 22", and within a couple minutes, have a quite literally shaving sharp edge at approximately whatever angle I choose. I think my machetes run 30-35 degrees. Steep, and slightly convex. (and that is the fine hair on my arms, not the easy-to-shave coarse hair on my legs).

I haven't timed it, but 2 or 3 passes per side to rebevel and get a burr is very reasonable. And 2 or 3 passes takes all of two minutes per side including the "stop, get machete wet to cool, inspect, another pass".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find that many of the sharpening systems and methods have merit. Each excel in different ways, for different knives. Always a tradeoff: time, ease, edge type, edge quality, etc.

A thread to that effect.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187084
 
Interesting. When you use a bench grinder, do you use a standard speed one, or one of the special, low-rpm units specifically for knife sharpening? I've got a regular grinder, but am concerned about using it on good blades due to potential overheating breaking the temper. Do you use a standard grit wheel, buffer wheel, paper wheel, or what?

Thanks in advance,

-- PG
 
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