Sintered Ruby As A Replacement Material For The Sharpmaker Ceramic Triangles

Hi SPNKr,

Thanks! That is very cool. :)

I'm a science junkie with a background in physics (undergrad) and computer science (grad). I still have some connections to university through a collaboration, so I was able to download the papers. I'm hoping to read up on some fracture mechanics. Is there a textbook you would recommend for this?

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
Hi SPNKr,

Thanks! That is very cool. :)

I'm a science junkie with a background in physics (undergrad) and computer science (grad). I still have some connections to university through a collaboration, so I was able to download the papers. I'm hoping to read up on some fracture mechanics. Is there a textbook you would recommend for this?

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian

Mechanical Metallurgy by G.E. Dieter is a decent resource for fracture in metals and linear elastic fracture mechanics. For ceramics I liked Mechanical Properties of Ceramics by Wachtman, Cannon and Matthewson.
 
@Bill DeShivs , @bucketstove , @David Martin , @eKretz , @Eli Chaps , FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades , @GABaus , @hank_rearden , @HeavyHanded , @Jason B. , @jpm2 , @kelbro , L Lagrangian , @me2 , @navin74 , @NORTHWEST_KNIFE_GUY , @Nosetotail , Obsessed with Edges Obsessed with Edges , @samuraistuart , @Scrim , @SpeedHoles , S SPNKr , @Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith , @The Deacon , @Thomas Linton , @thombrogan , V vorpalblade , @WValtakis

I could have posted this in my Spyderco ceramics thread or the Arkansas thread but chose to ask the question here, @all :D :
If you had a 8" UF Spyderco benchstone only (as your main finishing stone before hopping onto strops) AND you could choose freely between the 8" FINE Degussit ruby benchstone and the 8" ULTRAFINE Dan's Black Arkansas benchstone to complement your Spyderco UF setup, which of the two would you prefer (and why)? "freely" means, please disregard the price difference for now.

Currently i am testing the DEGUSSIT FINE material and it is lovely, so much better than my Chinese ruby from ebay/AliX. It is only slightly finer than a brandnew Spyderco 302UF but not finer than a 302UUF (=glazed 302UF), imho. I'll be testing also if one could glaze/refine the DEGUSSIT by lapping, i bought a full series of SiC wetordry sandpaper (also geman made, MATADOR brand by STARCKE). Btw a glazed 302UF does cut slower than a brandnew 302UF but it also mirror polishes to a much higher degree. I am sure that the Black Ark is so much finer than the German ruby but i am unsure if the Ark would be overall better and more preferable to the ruby, if price didn't matter.

Also, is the following correct? — If one had a 8" FINE Degussit ruby benchstone, one would not need the Spyderco UF benchstone any longer. o_O
 
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Also, is the following correct? — If one had a 8" FINE Degussit ruby benchstone, one would not need the Spyderco UF benchstone any longer. o_O

Not exactly, no. Both are sintered aluminum oxide and the differences between them will be difficult for most people to identify if both stones are given the same surface treatment. With sintered stones, their cutting action more resembles that of a machinist's file in that because of the extreme hardness of the bond, the surface finish of the stone has a very large and noticeable effect on the cut rate and the finish produced. You can deliberately alter this finish by lapping with loose lapidary diamond grit or by abrading the surface with a diamond plate. Resurfacing is part of the care and maintenance of sintered materials, and was part of the inspiration for my Black Magic sintered silicon carbide stones. The ruby does perform differently than the white sapphire of the Spyderco, but you would need to know the specific blend of the ruby used in sintering (sintering typically uses a specific proportion and range of grit size mixed to assist in the fusion of the grains) and technical data on the resulting fused material to make such claims authoritatively. It is generally a tougher and less friable grain, and is a little harder than white alumina. So you ought to get a little longer use out of it before blunting the grains, but you'll still need to periodically dress it, as is the case with all sintered ceramics, and the surface finish will still be mostly determined by the surface finish produced on the stone by the dressing process.
 
K kreisler ,

Regarding choosing between the ruby or the black hard Ark, I'll likely always favor the synthetic stones over natural. This is just because I find natural (Arkansas) stones to be too limited in their ability to work with many modern steels. I've always wanted to like natural stones more, as there's a certain sense of affinity or romantic attachment to them for sharpening. Especially with the black, there's an impressiveness in the fineness and consistency of the grain in such a natural stone. But more often than not, I've found them not quite practical enough for my uses, most of the time.

I have a very small, pocket-sized black hard Arkansas stone, which I occasionally pick up and test with some of my knives. At times, it seems as if the stone is literally doing nothing at all, in terms of cutting or removing metal. It's prone to glazing very quickly, even in my own relatively light uses of it. So, virtually every time i've tried it, I put the stone away pretty early and opt to use something else. I HAVE sometimes found this small black hard Ark to be useful in aligning a burred or rolled edge on a blade, as a polished kitchen steel might be used for the same purpose.

For really high-polishing of most blade steels, as might otherwise be done on something like a hard black Ark, I've found a hard or very hard wood substrate used with something like 3µ or finer diamond compound to be a lot more effective (faster), with little or no degradation in sharpness or fineness of the apex.
 
I appreciate the differentiated/comparative explanations, thank you very much FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades and Obsessed with Edges Obsessed with Edges ! I have hands-on experience with the very ruby material (Gesswein/Degussit) but absolutely none with any Arkansas. The only natural stones i tried are the chinese WHITE10000 ("white gem") and GREEN10000 ("emerald"), and they are very friable, waste of money. So i take the words of you board seniors:cool: as truth/fact. Has helped me to drop :oops: the Ark from my shortlist @NORTHWEST_KNIFE_GUY

I concur, wood+compound works optimal for mirror polishing metals, it's my goto method when exactness of geometries isn't required because polishing removes metal and can alter geometries/angles/tolerances/etc. For example, you wouldn't want to mirror polish a phosphor-bronze washer with wood or with a microfibre cloth; mirror-polishing a washer (for our knives) is imho best done on a dead flat ceramic stone.

When/if i get the 8" Degussit, i would use it only occasionally for polishing. I'd want to own it to have something superior/finer than the Spyderco ceramics. For starters, the Degussit is dead flat and smooth whereas the 302UF really isn't; case in point, here the unglazed bottom face of my stone Spyder Co. r u kiddin me :poop::

img_20200113_185956n0kji.jpg


The 204UF and the 302UUF (but not the 302UF!) are capable of producing a quite satisfactory mirror finish. The Degussit ruby seems to cut/abrade finer-sized particles out of the metal surface than the 302UF, so in my eyes the following inequality holds true:

(finer resulting finish) < 302UUF < DD57UF < DD57F RUBY3000 302UF 204UF << RUBY1000 < (coarser resulting finish)​

DD57F is my short for Degussit Fine. Good/interesting news: Today I was able to refine DD57F with MATADOR wetordry sequence 1500/2000/2500/3000/5000 and tomorrow i am going to test how more refined it performs/polishes. Let's call the refined finish "DD57UF" :p.

I am also going to resurface (lapping) the top face of my 302UF (=302UUF, has glazed center section) with MATADOR sandpapers as soon as i get to it. Fun maintenance project! :thumbsup:
 
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K kreisler Have you tried resurfacing the Chinese "RUBY3000" stone? I got one of these and it came finished in fairly deep longitudinal scratches. I reground one side and it behaves rather differently now.
 
K kreisler Have you tried resurfacing the Chinese "RUBY3000" stone? I got one of these and it came finished in fairly deep longitudinal scratches. I reground one side and it behaves rather differently now.
Yes, my chinese RUBY3000 stones have longitudinal lines in the finish too, the lines are either raised or deep and become visible when i rub a piece of metal along the surface. Basically, the stone is unidirectional, has an orientation, namely lengthwise. I don't mind it, so never thought about resurfacing.

lol. the chinese raised lines would be too much for me to grind away (with SiC sandpaper or whatnot). i wouldn't even tackle the shown bottom face of my Spyderco stone; i have confidence/hope for the top face only, since most of it is glazed and there are only few factory machining marks remaining to be lapped away.

Did you regrind your chinese stones with SiC powder or how? Got a pic to share? ;)
 
Did you regrind your chinese stones with SiC powder or how? Got a pic to share? ;)

Yes, basic silicon carbide grit from a lapidary shop, probably starting at #50. I don't think a photo will be very informative but I'll take one if you think it will help.
 
DD57 has the following properties (repeating some things already mentioned):
  1. Really, really hard
  2. Really, really flat – they’re visually as flat as my Starrett straight edge, that is, no light passes through between the stones and the straight edge, in any direction
  3. The only thing that matters is the surface finish (medium and fine contain the same mix of 10 and 100 µm “grit”, they’ve just been ground with different diamond wheels)
  4. Resurfacing can quite easily be done using silicon carbide powder
The ones glued to a wooden box, 90{1,2}-4111{0,1,2}-0, can be removed from the wooden box and have their underside used as well. You’ll have to destroy the wooden box in the process, however, as the glue they’ve used is incredibly strong. I believe that they use stones that have minor imperfections on one side for this product group. The one I did this with had a minor blemish in the spreading of the iron oxide, so a dot, about 1 to 2 mm in diameter is slightly lighter in color on that side. It doesn’t affect performance.

I find the largest stones to be quite nice to sharpen on. The feedback is a lot better than you’d expect. They don’t sharpen very fast, but they’re very consistent and they work well for most any ferrous metal, from low to high hardness. I haven’t tried them with high vanadium carbide steel, but I trust that they would at least work, even though my diamond stones might be more well suited for that use case.

Note that they certainly work for non-ferrous metals as well, but, as with most any material, some amount of Aluminum or Copper will stick to the surface. I’ve found that they don’t really load up with Aluminum or Copper, mostly because they’re so finely ground that there’s really no place for the Aluminum or Copper to go, so it’s mostly aesthetic.

I’ve found it quite hard to quantify what grits they correspond to, but I would venture a guess that I wouldn’t make anyone angry if I stated that the coarse finishes in the FEPA P 600–800 range, the medium in the 1200–1500 range, and the fine in the 2500 range. Given how flat these stones are, they resulting surface is very flat as well. The finish won’t be a mirror, that’s for diamonds, but it will give a mirror-like appearance.

Simpler cleaning can be done using an eraser, preferably one based on natural gum (India rubber). A thorough cleaning can be done using, for example, Barkeeper’s Friend. Barkeeper’s Friend will get most anything off if you let it sit for a while and then scrub well enough.

I haven’t tried resurfacing using diamond powder, though they state that diamond powder can be used to achieve even finer finishes on the stones.

The smaller stones that come in various sizes are quite useful for various tasks, though hardly for sharpening a knife. They can be useful for minor fixes, such as a nicked tip or such.

AL24, used for the coarse variant of the larger stones, is very different from DD57. It’s white in color, slightly porous, consists of 100µm “grit”, and is very different to the touch. It does its job well. Sadly, they don’t make the largest stone – 200×50×12 mm in size – in this material.

The set phrase “your children will inherit it” used so often for products of this kind to justify their cost really does apply here. It’s basically a big jewel that’s both pretty to look at and also quite useful.

Here’s the content of a document called “Instructions for fine grinding tools made of FRIALIT®-DEGUSSIT® oxide ceramics” by Aliaxis, the previous owners of Friatec. I believe they’re now owned by Kyocera Ceramics.

Fine, dense whetstones made of DEGUSSIT DD57 should be moistened with petroleum or cutting oil before use.

Clean with oil after use: using grease solvent, for example petroleum, xylene or similar. if necessary, any acid or alkaline solution can also be used.

For dry applications, the stone will remain clean considerably longer if usage traces are removed at regular intervals.

Regrinding the abrasive surfaces: Grind on a flat iron plate using a lapping emulsion of silicon carbide powder (with the following grain sizes) and water:

Type fine: Grain no. 400

Type medium: Grain no. 80

Type coarse: Grain no. 60

refine or coarsen the surfaces of the fine stones with silicon carbide powder. Use grain no. 180 to coarsen the fine stones. The surface can be considerably enhanced or polished using very fine boron carbide or diamond powder. Use grain size no. 60 to coarsen fine grinding tools of medium type and no. 120 to enhance.

When treating surfaces, ensure that there is enough unused silicon carbide powder on the grinding plate, otherwise its effectiveness will be quickly lost during grinding.

Fine cuts and edges (e.g. knife blades, gouge stones, etc.) can be sharpened or blunted by pulling through another stone in FRIALIT-DEGUSSIT oxide ceramic.

Do not bend thin, fine grinding tools in FRIALIT-DEGUSSIT oxide ceramics.​
 
in my eyes the following inequality holds true:

(finer resulting finish) < 302UUF < DD57UF < DD57F RUBY3000 302UF 204UF << RUBY1000 < (coarser resulting finish)​
These are my rubies from today's quick tests:
top - super cheap chinese ruby, lemme name it "RUBY1000"
middle - DEGUSSIT "DD57F / DD57UF" geman pro industrial grade ruby
bottom - affordable chinese ruby suitable for ruixin pro, the RUBY3000
rubytodayu0kod.jpg

yikes. i didn't realize until now that the two chinese rubies differ a lot in quality and performance, even though both are named "3000grits" by vendors.
  • RUBY1000. cuts fast, has (unvisible) raised longitudinal lines which apparently do the cutting. it's also where the steel particles build up and the stone starts to get loaded. works okay for basic sharpening/deburring of knife blades. the resulting macro scratches form a satin-mirror finish. i used this stone to set the reference and base stage for all 7 finishing tests. easy to clean.
  • DEGUSSIT DD57 FINE. very dense, cuts fast, has no unevenness, abrades very finely, creating micro scratches only. like a strop, catches and absorbs the steel particles evenly in the surface, getting them right out of the way, very nice, thx! Leaves a micro-scratched mirror finish between 302UUF (virtually perfect mirror finish) and 302UF (macro-scratched mirror finish). It is possible (and recommended by me) to sand one side to "DD57UF". very easy to 100% clean. I haven't tested it with knives yet :oops:
  • RUBY3000. very dense, cuts slowly, has visible longitudinal grooves which have no effect. the steel particles build up on the raised flats, and the stone eventually gets loaded unevenly. as with 302UF/204UF, the mirror finish potential gets marred by macro scratches caused by the steel particles on the raised flats. works best in conjunction with Ruixin device for refining the RUIXIN1500 scratch pattern. very easy to clean. maybe(?) not super suitable for freehand sharpening, i haven't really tested this.
K kreisler you haven't tested the 2 stones with knives?? :confused: So how did you test the 7 stone finishes? o_O

:p I ground the bottom face of 7 Fujitsu AA-batteries with RUBY1000 (stage1), then proceeded with the respective stone finish (stage2 = final stage). Then i trusted my eyes and brains to compare the 7 batteries with each other.;) The "" symbol means that it was a close call (and some other pair of eyes and brains might see it differently), also due to technical reasons. All in all, the resulting finishes of DD57F, RUBY3000, 302UF, 204UF are not clearly apart, with the main difference being that DD57F leaves dense micro scraches (from the ruby i guess) and no macro scratches or grinding errors/defects from "floating" steel particles (as seen with RUBY3000, 302UF, 204UF). Sure, i yet have to test the DD57F and DD57UF for our purposes: knife sharpening and deburring. (…)

yes i still have and keep those 8 batteries. Who is interested in phone cam photos? It is difficult to capture the inequality in a photograph :(

anyway, with these test results i am getting interested in buying the 8" DD57F Benchstone (without wood box). Gesswein quotes 259US$ shipped (incl taxes) aha.
 
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K kreisler I don't know if you still wanted photos but I'm glad you asked as it made me take a closer look. I ended up imaging some other stones too so I'll post these in a separate thread when they're ready. I am surprised that you find the ruixin-style stone to be as fine as you do, especially in its unlapped state. I have a "3000# Pink" stone that appears identical, crooked plastic base and all. (Though I remounted mine to correct that.) I also have a different "Ruby 3000#" that is a different color. Neither are particularly fine under the magnifier and the original finish on both was rather coarse. Nevertheless they both work well enough.
 
Here’s the content of a document called “Instructions for fine grinding tools made of FRIALIT®-DEGUSSIT® oxide ceramics” by Aliaxis
Are you able to share the original document PDF (or a PNG screenshot of the pages)? I'd love to print out the original, thank you!
Neither are particularly fine under the magnifier and the original finish on both was rather coarse.
Hmm. i'm surprised, chinese rubies must be hit or miss then. "Dec. 08 2017, Memories of youth 2628 Store, US$2.46 shipped China Post Ordinary Small Packet Plus, incl tracking number" is where i got my ruixin-style RUBY3000 from lol, it is crazy smooth, really deserving of the "3000" designation.

I'll try to take photos too. Looking forward to yours!
 
Those Congress 1/2" ruby triangles are sold for around $10-16 a pair depending on grit choice (probably not including shipping), but the lack of precision on them keeps me away for the time being. I'd imagine a nice precise set actually made for the Sharpmaker would easily sell around $25-30, and I would pay that much.

There is a 180x13mm ruby triangle on ebay that is advertised as fitting the Sharpmaker, but is seems way over priced at $29 for only 1 triangle, putting a pair at much higher price than the Diamond or CBN. And not to mention risk the gamble of it being from China it may be the same thing as the Congress triangle and lack precision (either not fit into base or fitness so loosely that the angle is off).

I am eager to try one for myself though...
Did somebody try those Congress Rubys? Are them made in China? Are they good?
 
Bought this stone a few days ago. There is an instruction here. Or paper of this type (like oiled wrapping paper) that it looks old, or it is really old stone. While the stone is still on the way, as soon as it arrives, I will also post this instruction here. If it works well for German stones, then it may well work well for Chinese stones. Unfortunately, in the photo, part of it is covered with stone and is not visible. Let's see if there are many differences in the instructions depending on the release time. Judging by the photo, there are 3 languages - German, English, French. The stone itself seems to have been used. According to the instructions I will try to clean the surface so that it is rosy and clean, like a newborn pig.
1640080823299.jpeg
 

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Are you able to share the original document PDF (or a PNG screenshot of the pages)? I'd love to print out the original, thank you!
iirc i've got the original PDF somewhere (gmail or hdd) and i can confirm that N now 's quote is 100% correct and complete. however i will never use these instructions, i.e. i will never attempt to mod my bunch of Like New degussit stones. why not? like factory sharpness of giantmouse or spiderco knives, i know that i caht surpass that, because i *uck.

failbot failbot congrats to the degussit acquisition! hopefully your sample is still good to go and only requires some cleaning. for cleaning, use Barkeepers Friend only, plus patience and lots of elbow grease. BKF dissolves metals better than any other end consumer product. looking forward to your report and further shares! lemme know if you need me to source the pdf. i caht remember where i saw it last.
 
Finally arrived, here is a photo of the instruction, it is in 3 languages, like a Rosetta stone))

After light cleaning, it is quite noticeable that the surface has thin ruts, apparently someone pressed very hard with a carbide cutter, it looks like the work of bark beetles, there will be a long alignment of all 4 sides.

This is a quick photo, later I will try to iron the instructions with an iron to smooth out the wrinkles.

K kreisler

Thank you very much for your advice! I will definitely try BKF :)
 

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Hello, I have found a suitable framed window pane. I used F230 silicon carbide, removed surface defects in ~40 minutes. In the next days I will use finer silicon carbide. It has an interesting structure, it looks like it was originally cast, it looks like concrete filled with pieces of rubble, or to brecciated sedimentary rocks. The distribution of these pieces is not uniform, there are almost no inclusions on one side and everything is homogeneous, while on the other side there are a lot of these pieces. This either does not affect the sharpening of the knife, or I don’t feel it with my knife (ATS34 57-59HRc) and with the current grit, or I don't feel.

 

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failbot failbot Would you say that the general color of your sample in RL looks very much like the color in the digital photo image?
i have chinese rubies which match the color in your jpeg but my Degussit Fine units have a much darker red color (like a cherry red).

maybe your unit isn't Fine but Medium, whaddya think?
 
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