So in NY almost ANY folder can be illegal

synthesist said:
Read a VERY scary article on the Daily Beast this morning about how illegal, in New York state, many modern, easy open knives could be construed as illegal and get you a felony arrest (read that as very expensive legal defense) and, potential jail sentence.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-york-just-saved-a-law-used-to-jail-thousands-of-minorities.

Corey "synthesist" Gimbel
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yup, the only knife i carry with close to 100% confidence is my spyderco roadie. i have a slew of other innocent looking folders that pass gravity wrist test that i'm like 95% comfortable carrying, and then there are flippers, risking my back every time i carry them (not often at all, actually only when i go fishing, yes i used to take my shirogorov fishing, never actually used one on a fish :D). check out our other thread on this

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/new-york-knife-laws.1315205/

flatblackcapo said:
The enforcement of this old law has little to do with protecting the public and much to do with financial gain.
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don't forget race driven agenda. absolutely infuriating
 
All knife laws.
Just.
Plain.
Ridiculous.
I carry a gun every day. I can easily inflict SERIOUS damage on someone at a distance exceeding arms reach by a factor of 20 (I'm not a great shot, otherwise it would be a factor of 50).
Yet, I can't carry a knife that opens and closes with the push of a button, even if the blade is only 3" long.
 
I don't think the point is that the knives are really dangerous, the point is to have a freebie excuse to justify a cop detaining you and ripping through your pockets and maybe tossing your car in the hopes of finding drugs. Which is another gimme to justify police intrusion, it's just been that way for so long that we accept it as fact. But yeah, just don't wear it showing, then they need to figure out another way to justify going through your pockets to find it and practice the flick. Then there is also the element of New York cops being really out to destroy people's lives, like incentivized through bonuses for making ANY arrests that lead to conviction, and the gravity knife is a super easy case to prove and becomes the crime, rather than the excuse to investigate further for evidence of a real crime. No need to investigate further, we got him!!

The thing is though, most situations like that can be resolved just by being smart. Talk respectfully to the cops, treat them like people, don't be an asshole and let them run their power trip, try to come across as a decent person and not a dirtbag, and generally that is worth 100 times more than whether you have a knife showing from the corner of your pocket. It comes down to whether these particular cops on this particular occasion want to mess you up. The knife thing is just one way that they do it, there are tons of crimes that you can catch normal people on to justify detaining and arresting them. I also feel like this is just a pretty typical example of something so crazy the government has allowed itself to do, I think even if the bill had passed it's not like you would be any safer from the police element that is just out to get the most convictions out of the least work possible. Remember, the police made the "gravity knife" apply to any knife by the way they enforced the law, and also there was a lot of violent crime in New York City in the 1980s or 70s or whenever this got enacted. The police and the courts over time take a thing like this gravity knife and turn it into what we have today. They can and will find a way!!!
 
Ha! That reminded me of a GBU thread where a "helpful" former NYPD doxxed a scammer.... Only he doxxed the wrong guy because the dude's name was fairly common. His attitude was just like that...

fonedork said:
No need to investigate further, we got him!!
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fonedork said:
I don't think the point is that the knives are really dangerous, the point is to have a freebie excuse to justify a cop detaining you and ripping through your pockets and maybe tossing your car in the hopes of finding drugs. Which is another gimme to justify police intrusion, it's just been that way for so long that we accept it as fact. But yeah, just don't wear it showing, then they need to figure out another way to justify going through your pockets to find it and practice the flick. Then there is also the element of New York cops being really out to destroy people's lives, like incentivized through bonuses for making ANY arrests that lead to conviction, and the gravity knife is a super easy case to prove and becomes the crime, rather than the excuse to investigate further for evidence of a real crime. No need to investigate further, we got him!!

The thing is though, most situations like that can be resolved just by being smart. Talk respectfully to the cops, treat them like people, don't be an asshole and let them run their power trip, try to come across as a decent person and not a dirtbag, and generally that is worth 100 times more than whether you have a knife showing from the corner of your pocket. It comes down to whether these particular cops on this particular occasion want to mess you up. The knife thing is just one way that they do it, there are tons of crimes that you can catch normal people on to justify detaining and arresting them. I also feel like this is just a pretty typical example of something so crazy the government has allowed itself to do, I think even if the bill had passed it's not like you would be any safer from the police element that is just out to get the most convictions out of the least work possible. Remember, the police made the "gravity knife" apply to any knife by the way they enforced the law, and also there was a lot of violent crime in New York City in the 1980s or 70s or whenever this got enacted. The police and the courts over time take a thing like this gravity knife and turn it into what we have today. They can and will find a way!!!
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I agree 100% with the above.

Outside of NYC, this law has only been applied a handful of times. But it could be applied at ANY time. I carry smaller fixed blades almost 100% - bust me for a 'dangerous knife' but you won't get me for a gravity knife.

NYC policing is anything but lawful. How many stop and frisks are a result of any form of RAS let alone probable cause. A gang that will run your pockets, expect fellatio to let you out of an unlawful arrest, hound you into prison for filming one of their own choking a fat man to death for selling a single cigarette. Or you can languish on Rikers for years with the sodomites, gangbangers and homicidal guards and never even have your day in court.
 
robgmn said:
All knife laws.
Just.
Plain.
Ridiculous.
I carry a gun every day. I can easily inflict SERIOUS damage on someone at a distance exceeding arms reach by a factor of 20 (I'm not a great shot, otherwise it would be a factor of 50).
Yet, I can't carry a knife that opens and closes with the push of a button, even if the blade is only 3" long.
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this is one of those things that i just don't get about the US.
it seems like knives (a tool) are more regulated than pistols (a weapon).
 
Its true I believe the police culture is totally out of control. They feel they are above the law and can do anything without reprecussion. I never see cops get convicted even when they break the law. The top brass Toronto cop who rounded up and detained hundreds of completely innocent civillians during the g20 got docked 30 days paid vacation. That was it! This was despite all the human rights violations. They were literally jailing people for being down town doing nothing.

It is so super rare that cops are punished for breaking the law. If anything they should get more time for betraying the public's trust.

And I am not putting up with the "most cops are good, its just a few bad apples" BS story anymore. The fact is that "good cops" will lie and obstruct to protect their bad compatriots. The old "blue wall". This is definitely a situation where the few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.
 
So can someone clarify the NYC sub 4 inch fixed blade laws? As best as I can tell, you can carry one "with legal intent" concealed or unconcealed in NYS, but it seems that you MUST conceal it in NYC. Is that correct? Also, self defense appears to have traditionally NOT been a legal reason for carrying NYC, but I saw something about a recent court case that overturned that.
 
jdm61 said:
So can someone clarify the NYC sub 4 inch fixed blade laws? As best as I can tell, you can carry one "with legal intent" concealed or unconcealed in NYS, but it seems that you MUST conceal it in NYC. Is that correct? Also, self defense appears to have traditionally NOT been a legal reason for carrying NYC, but I saw something about a recent court case that overturned that.
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The court case you're referring to has bearing only on defense against criminal charges for possessing a dirk, dagger or stiletto. If a cop finds you with a fixed blade you very well may be arrested and charged, and you'll have to have your day(s) in court to clear your name, but chances are you will be cleared at the end. But you would still have to go through all that crap, so is the risk of arrest and court dates worth carrying a fixed blade?
 
lieferung said:
The court case you're referring to has bearing only on defense against criminal charges for possessing a dirk, dagger or stiletto. If a cop finds you with a fixed blade you very well may be arrested and charged, and you'll have to have your day(s) in court to clear your name, but chances are you will be cleared at the end. But you would still have to go through all that crap, so is the risk of arrest and court dates worth carrying a fixed blade?
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If you are cleared, they should have the arresting officer return the knife to you in court with an apology!:thumbsup:
 
Most of the people that we are hearing about are not being arrested/ticketed for carrying a knife. They are being arrested/ticketed for carrying a GRAVITY knife. The Village Voice even mentioned the 4 inch fixed blade rule as a rather silly way to get around the laws that the police and Mr. Vance have been using/abusing. I had previously heard that it had to be concealed, but i saw something yesterday that said that it didn't. As for the current fiasco, my understanding is that many of those cited were carrying in their pocket and the cops saw the pocket clip. That is apparently what passes for probable cause up there. ;)
lieferung said:
The court case you're referring to has bearing only on defense against criminal charges for possessing a dirk, dagger or stiletto. If a cop finds you with a fixed blade you very well may be arrested and charged, and you'll have to have your day(s) in court to clear your name, but chances are you will be cleared at the end. But you would still have to go through all that crap, so is the risk of arrest and court dates worth carrying a fixed blade?
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jdm61 said:
Most of the people that we are hearing about are not being arrested/ticketed for carrying a knife. They are being arrested/ticketed for carrying a GRAVITY knife. The Village Voice even mentioned the 4 inch fixed blade rule as a rather silly way to get around the laws that the police and Mr. Vance have been using/abusing. I had previously heard that it had to be concealed, but i saw something yesterday that said that it didn't. As for the current fiasco, my understanding is that many of those cited were carrying in their pocket and the cops saw the pocket clip. That is apparently what passes for probable cause up there. ;)
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I was just relaying what the knife law website said. They emphasized that while a fixed blade is legal to carry in NYS (I didn't read anything specific to NYC) and that People v Richards defined self defense as a reason to carry, you could potentially still be arrested and charged for it. I don't think it's right and I hope it can be changed.

Now the gravity knife thing I have heard about, even the picked up for showing a clip as well. Absolutely ridiculous.
 
The law in question is from 1956. In the 1970's IIRC, the late Bob Loveless made a sub 4 inch knife called the New York Special. I think that we are just now catching on to that loophole that he appears to have known about back then. ;)
lieferung said:
I was just relaying what the knife law website said. They emphasized that while a fixed blade is legal to carry in NYS (I didn't read anything specific to NYC) and that People v Richards defined self defense as a reason to carry, you could potentially still be arrested and charged for it. I don't think it's right and I hope it can be changed.

Now the gravity knife thing I have heard about, even the picked up for showing a clip as well. Absolutely ridiculous.
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NYC Admin code 10-133 is the part that says it can not be visible. This is only NYC, but they consider a pocket clip to be visible, and the visible part allows them to see if it is an illegal knife ( gravity knife mostly). What is the recent case on a dagger as I did not see that one!!!! I must be slipping up!!!
 
tom19176 said:
NYC Admin code 10-133 is the part that says it can not be visible. This is only NYC, but they consider a pocket clip to be visible, and the visible part allows them to see if it is an illegal knife ( gravity knife mostly). What is the recent case on a dagger as I did not see that one!!!! I must be slipping up!!!
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As I understand it is not super recent, it's from ten years ago (yes 2008 was ten years ago, feel old yet?!?).
 
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