Some Comments on the Busse Battle Mistress
- Thread starter Burke
- Start date
Nomex is like asbestos in that it won't burn (well, not without extreme heat) but it will allow transfer of heat. In other words a nomex wrapped kydex sheath might not receive direct flame damage, but the heat would still transfer and melt it.
A good leather sheath looks nice, feels very comfortable but they just don't work for me. More than one leather sheath has suffered some serious cuts while re-sheathing the knife. In fact I've already taken a slice off the side of my BM-E's sheath. Kydex just doesn't do that. All my kydes comes from Normark and I'd chose it over leather any day.
A good leather sheath looks nice, feels very comfortable but they just don't work for me. More than one leather sheath has suffered some serious cuts while re-sheathing the knife. In fact I've already taken a slice off the side of my BM-E's sheath. Kydex just doesn't do that. All my kydes comes from Normark and I'd chose it over leather any day.
Let's see. One sheath, thrown 6 feet and landing on concrete. N=1. Sounds like real science alright. When you reach N=20, let me know. Geez I'm glad I wear cyberboots around here.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
Wow. This is the second thread that I have read where people seem to like to go after Cliff because he reports his results as objectively as possible. For the record, it was Eric getting a little defensive, not Cliff.
It only takes one counterexample to disprove a theorum or postulate, not 20. People seem to be of the opinion that kydex is pretty much unbreakable. Cliff disproved that. Big deal, nothing is unbreakable.
It only takes one counterexample to disprove a theorum or postulate, not 20. People seem to be of the opinion that kydex is pretty much unbreakable. Cliff disproved that. Big deal, nothing is unbreakable.
Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
Interesting thread, especially with the comments on the Kydex sheaths. Cliff is right when he said I had a cold weather sheath failure, it was between 20 and 30 below zero farenheit. I had a cow knock me into a fence and the sheath was the first to hit and it pretty much shattered. The belt loop broke and the outside of the sheath broke as well. The sheath could have held the knife but with the broken belt loop it was rendered pretty much inoperable.
I like Kydex/Concealex sheaths very much, but the cats ass would be Cordura covered Kydex/Concealex. I have in fact designed 2 knives around Blackhawk sheaths of the above description because I like the sheaths so muck. They have the plastic liner and the rest including the belt loop is cordura. Great combination in my opinion.
I like Kydex/Concealex sheaths very much, but the cats ass would be Cordura covered Kydex/Concealex. I have in fact designed 2 knives around Blackhawk sheaths of the above description because I like the sheaths so muck. They have the plastic liner and the rest including the belt loop is cordura. Great combination in my opinion.
I didn't read it that way. What I read was that Cliff PROVED how FRAGILE kydex is.
I think it's going to take more than a couple stories and pitching one sheath 6 ft to prove that kydex is so fragile in cold weather. Out of the thousands of kydex sheaths out there how many are busting up so easily? Does anyone really KNOW???? I don't think so and I sure don't think Ciff does. And I'd be willing to bet that if you took 10 of Eric's Schrade Sharpfinger sheaths (I have a nice one of his.) and threw them 6 whole feet in 20 below weather, not a single one would break. But we really don't know do we? We only have "data" of one that broke so easily.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2000
- Messages
- 6,104
I don't see any reason for anyone to get defensive. We're going to have different needs, experiences and viewpoints. Wouldn't be much point in having a forum, otherwise.
I doubt we'll ever have the "perfect" sheath, anymore than the "perfect" blade steel. But we can get the best for our own purposes.
I doubt we'll ever have the "perfect" sheath, anymore than the "perfect" blade steel. But we can get the best for our own purposes.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 1999
- Messages
- 6,651
Hey Guys...
First off I appreciate the comments..
In my opinion I have No doubt that Cliff "shattered" the sheath..
Cliffs kind of known for breaking things around here,,isn't he..
LOL
Lets go back to Cliff's childhood for a minute..
Cliffs mother and I Quote:
"Cliffy, you are going to Break that new toy of yours if you don't stop slamming the door on it"
"Cliffy,, Why do you keep pushing your toys down the stairs? "
LOL
Anyway seriously now...
Ok Cliff broke a sheath, what else is new!
I'd like to add that it wasn't one of mine Not that I know of anyway...
Out of the tens of thousands of synthetic sheaths produced each year, I would bet that less than .5 of a percent are returned because of damage.
Out of the thousands of sheaths I've built I have not replaced Any sheaths do to "Blunt Force Trauma" and only one becuse of high heat exposure. Oh and maybe 2-3 broken belt loops. None to structural failure.
The fellow lived in Arizona or something and left it on the hood of his jeep at high noon. Clearly the fault of the end user,, but the sheath was replaced without question..
It's not a secret that I feel some of Cliffs testing methods are faulty. If they were done with more of a scientific method I would hold them more as being fact.
Testing the same way Consumer Reports tests would be more to the level I would accept.
Cliff's testing methods Lack very badly the scientific validation.
That part about me being defensive or maybe sensitive is true. I felt it was rather vauge and wanted to distance myself and my sheaths as far away as possible. Some people could get the wrong idea about the comment made by Cliff.
One must also remember that Cliff is a end user with his own opinions in the matter,,thats fine I value that. On the other hand,, he's not a sheath manufacturer, and doubt he knows more than basic sheathmaking skills.
Not an attack just stating what I believe to be fact. Please feel free to enlighten me.
I just wish I knew the color of the sky in his world..
Just teasing ya Cliff..
I have No doubt about what happened to Rob's sheath.. I would consider that "Blunt Force Trauma", and have my own theorys on why it happens and how it could be prevented.
Rob if you would like to shoot me an e-mail , I will explain my theories to you..
Anyway,, just my opinions,, take them however you like,,just Don't take them as personal attacks,, they were not intened as such...
We can go Round and Round about How, Why things happen, I have Several therories about them. Improper heating, Over Heating, Bad design, Inferior materials and such.
What I won't do is comment on them publicly, because I Don't know for a Fact!
Synthetics have their place in the knife industry Firmly placed. It's not the answer to Everything, it's not the Best material for all jobs, but I'll tell you one thing,,, It's the best we have right now.
Invent something better,,and I'll buy the copyright and patent from you!
ttyle
Eric..
------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing
First off I appreciate the comments..
In my opinion I have No doubt that Cliff "shattered" the sheath..
Cliffs kind of known for breaking things around here,,isn't he..
Lets go back to Cliff's childhood for a minute..
Cliffs mother and I Quote:
"Cliffy, you are going to Break that new toy of yours if you don't stop slamming the door on it"
"Cliffy,, Why do you keep pushing your toys down the stairs? "
LOL
Anyway seriously now...
Ok Cliff broke a sheath, what else is new!
I'd like to add that it wasn't one of mine Not that I know of anyway...
Out of the tens of thousands of synthetic sheaths produced each year, I would bet that less than .5 of a percent are returned because of damage.
Out of the thousands of sheaths I've built I have not replaced Any sheaths do to "Blunt Force Trauma" and only one becuse of high heat exposure. Oh and maybe 2-3 broken belt loops. None to structural failure.
The fellow lived in Arizona or something and left it on the hood of his jeep at high noon. Clearly the fault of the end user,, but the sheath was replaced without question..
It's not a secret that I feel some of Cliffs testing methods are faulty. If they were done with more of a scientific method I would hold them more as being fact.
Testing the same way Consumer Reports tests would be more to the level I would accept.
Cliff's testing methods Lack very badly the scientific validation.
That part about me being defensive or maybe sensitive is true. I felt it was rather vauge and wanted to distance myself and my sheaths as far away as possible. Some people could get the wrong idea about the comment made by Cliff.
One must also remember that Cliff is a end user with his own opinions in the matter,,thats fine I value that. On the other hand,, he's not a sheath manufacturer, and doubt he knows more than basic sheathmaking skills.
Not an attack just stating what I believe to be fact. Please feel free to enlighten me.
I just wish I knew the color of the sky in his world..
Just teasing ya Cliff..
I have No doubt about what happened to Rob's sheath.. I would consider that "Blunt Force Trauma", and have my own theorys on why it happens and how it could be prevented.
Rob if you would like to shoot me an e-mail , I will explain my theories to you..
Anyway,, just my opinions,, take them however you like,,just Don't take them as personal attacks,, they were not intened as such...
We can go Round and Round about How, Why things happen, I have Several therories about them. Improper heating, Over Heating, Bad design, Inferior materials and such.
What I won't do is comment on them publicly, because I Don't know for a Fact!
Synthetics have their place in the knife industry Firmly placed. It's not the answer to Everything, it's not the Best material for all jobs, but I'll tell you one thing,,, It's the best we have right now.
Invent something better,,and I'll buy the copyright and patent from you!
ttyle
Eric..
------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing
I have an On-Scene Tactical sheath for one of my Busse knives, it is by far the nicest concealex work I have seen. I've made a few sheaths myself and have several sheets of Bladetech concealex and fasteners in my basement, but when I saw the quality of Eric's work I had to buy one.
Although I prefer the look and feel of leather, concealex has a definite advantage in humid enviroments, as well as ease of fashioning and the ability to be used in multi-carry modes.
One thing that I have learned in the use of thermoplastics is that the time/ temperature curve used to bring the material to "shaping" heat will greatly impact the toughness of the material.
Normark is on the cutting edge of concealex manufacturing, I am greatly impressed with his work. I have carried my Busse in his concealex sheath through a variety of conditions, including PDC weather (pretty darn cold) and never feared for a minute that it would fail.
A number of custom knife makers are very knowledgeable in regards to kydex and concealex, Newt Livesay has a forum dedicated to the topic at his Website.
Take care and stay sharp,
Chad
------------------
Wicked Knife Co.
Hoods Woods
chad234@email.com
Although I prefer the look and feel of leather, concealex has a definite advantage in humid enviroments, as well as ease of fashioning and the ability to be used in multi-carry modes.
One thing that I have learned in the use of thermoplastics is that the time/ temperature curve used to bring the material to "shaping" heat will greatly impact the toughness of the material.
Normark is on the cutting edge of concealex manufacturing, I am greatly impressed with his work. I have carried my Busse in his concealex sheath through a variety of conditions, including PDC weather (pretty darn cold) and never feared for a minute that it would fail.
A number of custom knife makers are very knowledgeable in regards to kydex and concealex, Newt Livesay has a forum dedicated to the topic at his Website.
Take care and stay sharp,
Chad
------------------
Wicked Knife Co.
Hoods Woods
chad234@email.com
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
I think we all agree Kydex is a great material. Best impregnated leather too. We are getting to the stage where its the execution, fit and finish that makes all the difference.
I'm just about to order two Kydex sheaths, basically to keep the bulk down. I only wish there was a cover material that could be bonded to the kydex to keep the noise down without adding bulk or weight. What glue works on kydex?
If there is a way to break something we'll find it
I'm just about to order two Kydex sheaths, basically to keep the bulk down. I only wish there was a cover material that could be bonded to the kydex to keep the noise down without adding bulk or weight. What glue works on kydex?
If there is a way to break something we'll find it
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
In regards to heat, I tried some brief eposure to open flame and heated steel on leather and Kydex and the leather easily held up better. Kydex will deform/melt readily on contact whereas leather will not. Both take quite some time to catch on fire (one match will not do it). But since Kydex can deform around the contact point it is more likely to see damage suffer as a result. The Kydex was on a Busse Basic and the leather just an old belt, 1/8" thick.
An important point was brought up about Cordura, I don't know how fire resistant it is but one thing is critical, the more carrying options a sheath has the easier it is to catch on fire. Every thing that protrodes produces a point with a very high surface area / volume ratio and that is directly proportional to how easy it is so ignite something. If you are going to max fire resistant make sure your sheaths are very "clean", simple in design with no add ons.
There was a very important point made in the above concerning interpretation of results. If you do something just once it is very difficult to judge if what you saw was real or if it simply was a defect in that particular piece. Why do I think that the failure I described in the above is a real effect and not just defects in the Kydex sheath? Well a few reasons.
First of all, it is well known that you will get a decrease in ductility and impact toughness for most materials as the temperature drops and I found out quite some time ago that this is true for Kydex. For an extreme end point I worked with it at liquid nitrogen temperature. Of course at this temperature most things are brittle and its not like people could survive let alone use knives (which would also be quite brittle). I have also tried it at dry ice temperature and it still is quite brittle. This is about the limit at which people function and still I think a bit low for a classification as being brittle as once again I don't think many knives would remain functional at this temperature, which might be something to look at later on. In any case it does bound the performance, which only raises the question of how it behaves are more sensible temperature like -40 to -20 .
Secondly, it is not just one point. To date I have seen failures on three Kydex sheaths in the cold. One from TOPS, one from Camillus and one from Busse Combat. Basically all of the Kydex I have used in cold weather that has seen any amount of impact has all failure in a very short period of time. The Busse lasted the longest and it is obvious why from the design and materials. It uses slightly thicker Kydex and as well the design is much cleaner and stronger as it has no sharp corners, all the transitions are smooth and flowing. The only argument against my results would be that they are not a real effect, ie. I got three defective sheaths from three different makufactures. Now the only way is see this as even remotely possible is that their QC is very poor. Consider even if they are putting out faulty sheaths say 1:50 (defects in the Kydex). Then my odds at seeing what I did are less than 1:100 000. Personally I see it as a far more reasonable case that this is the way Kydex behaves.
Third, the threads I have posted have lead to several email back and forths about Kydex with several users that report similar failures, a few have been mentioned on the forums in various places.
Fourth, you have to look beyond just the results and see how the maker responds to them. They are the ones who actually set the QC. It is up to them to say if the results I describe (or anyone else obviously) are the expected performance or some kind of materials defect. Specific to this the Machax went back to Becker last week and I enclosed a lists of problems I had with it once of which was the Kydex fractures in cold weather. Now if it is of his opinion that this is not the expected behavior I will obviously do the same kinds of things and see how it holds up and if it is different that what I described in the above then I will correct the various threads.
Specific to this Eric is a Kydex sheath maker and has commented that what I describe is not the expected behavior, for his sheaths anyway. So I ask you Erik, the same question I ask any maker who makes those kind of performance statements, will you guarantee that your sheaths will perform as you describe. To be even more specific :
In addition to this, it should obviously not fail the drop work that broke the Machax and Steel Eagle Sheath.
One correction to what I noted in the above, there is another argument that can be used and it is quite simply that I am lying, not about the sheaths failing but what I did to induce it. I have access to liquid Nitrogen on a regular basis and I could have easily induced the failures once the sheaths were at that temperature. You might be able to prove this by looking at the structure of the Kydex as it might either transform at really low temperaures or suffer stress cracks. As well the pattern of the failure should be somewhat indicative as the cracks would be very numerous. Of course I could also lied about the level of impact. If I used a big enough hammer than they Kydex would obvious break even at room temperature. But this would be kind of obvious if you looked at the level of compression of the material. Anyway, if it is of your opinion that I am lying about what I describe then obviously you disregard anything I say, or in fact infer the opposite.
Chad does in fact bring up one further point in that maybe Eric is actually making Kydex sheaths that are far more durable than Busse, TOPS and Camillus. If this is the case, for whatever reason, it is obviously not sound to classify his sheaths using work done on directly inferior products.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-10-2001).]
An important point was brought up about Cordura, I don't know how fire resistant it is but one thing is critical, the more carrying options a sheath has the easier it is to catch on fire. Every thing that protrodes produces a point with a very high surface area / volume ratio and that is directly proportional to how easy it is so ignite something. If you are going to max fire resistant make sure your sheaths are very "clean", simple in design with no add ons.
There was a very important point made in the above concerning interpretation of results. If you do something just once it is very difficult to judge if what you saw was real or if it simply was a defect in that particular piece. Why do I think that the failure I described in the above is a real effect and not just defects in the Kydex sheath? Well a few reasons.
First of all, it is well known that you will get a decrease in ductility and impact toughness for most materials as the temperature drops and I found out quite some time ago that this is true for Kydex. For an extreme end point I worked with it at liquid nitrogen temperature. Of course at this temperature most things are brittle and its not like people could survive let alone use knives (which would also be quite brittle). I have also tried it at dry ice temperature and it still is quite brittle. This is about the limit at which people function and still I think a bit low for a classification as being brittle as once again I don't think many knives would remain functional at this temperature, which might be something to look at later on. In any case it does bound the performance, which only raises the question of how it behaves are more sensible temperature like -40 to -20 .
Secondly, it is not just one point. To date I have seen failures on three Kydex sheaths in the cold. One from TOPS, one from Camillus and one from Busse Combat. Basically all of the Kydex I have used in cold weather that has seen any amount of impact has all failure in a very short period of time. The Busse lasted the longest and it is obvious why from the design and materials. It uses slightly thicker Kydex and as well the design is much cleaner and stronger as it has no sharp corners, all the transitions are smooth and flowing. The only argument against my results would be that they are not a real effect, ie. I got three defective sheaths from three different makufactures. Now the only way is see this as even remotely possible is that their QC is very poor. Consider even if they are putting out faulty sheaths say 1:50 (defects in the Kydex). Then my odds at seeing what I did are less than 1:100 000. Personally I see it as a far more reasonable case that this is the way Kydex behaves.
Third, the threads I have posted have lead to several email back and forths about Kydex with several users that report similar failures, a few have been mentioned on the forums in various places.
Fourth, you have to look beyond just the results and see how the maker responds to them. They are the ones who actually set the QC. It is up to them to say if the results I describe (or anyone else obviously) are the expected performance or some kind of materials defect. Specific to this the Machax went back to Becker last week and I enclosed a lists of problems I had with it once of which was the Kydex fractures in cold weather. Now if it is of his opinion that this is not the expected behavior I will obviously do the same kinds of things and see how it holds up and if it is different that what I described in the above then I will correct the various threads.
Specific to this Eric is a Kydex sheath maker and has commented that what I describe is not the expected behavior, for his sheaths anyway. So I ask you Erik, the same question I ask any maker who makes those kind of performance statements, will you guarantee that your sheaths will perform as you describe. To be even more specific :
In addition to this, it should obviously not fail the drop work that broke the Machax and Steel Eagle Sheath.
One correction to what I noted in the above, there is another argument that can be used and it is quite simply that I am lying, not about the sheaths failing but what I did to induce it. I have access to liquid Nitrogen on a regular basis and I could have easily induced the failures once the sheaths were at that temperature. You might be able to prove this by looking at the structure of the Kydex as it might either transform at really low temperaures or suffer stress cracks. As well the pattern of the failure should be somewhat indicative as the cracks would be very numerous. Of course I could also lied about the level of impact. If I used a big enough hammer than they Kydex would obvious break even at room temperature. But this would be kind of obvious if you looked at the level of compression of the material. Anyway, if it is of your opinion that I am lying about what I describe then obviously you disregard anything I say, or in fact infer the opposite.
Chad does in fact bring up one further point in that maybe Eric is actually making Kydex sheaths that are far more durable than Busse, TOPS and Camillus. If this is the case, for whatever reason, it is obviously not sound to classify his sheaths using work done on directly inferior products.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-10-2001).]
OK. I'll go with that. I don't believe Cliff is lying. He has too much fun telling the truth about his passion for breaking things. But neither is Eric. So Eric just makes better sheaths.
Perhaps next winter Cliff will test one of Eric's sheaths? Or perhaps the other kydex makers will send Cliff to Antarctica to perform more tests. And he was never heard from again...
Seriously, three failures are too many for defects to explain them away. Either there is a problem with kydex or there is a problem with the methodolgy. From this vantage point so far removed from the test conditions it's not really possible to say which it is. But a problem this dramatic should lend itself to temperature and impact testing under laboratory conditions so rigorous controls could be imposed, and that would shed light on real world tests. There must be some data out there already. Anyone have a government grant handy?
Perhaps next winter Cliff will test one of Eric's sheaths? Or perhaps the other kydex makers will send Cliff to Antarctica to perform more tests. And he was never heard from again...
Seriously, three failures are too many for defects to explain them away. Either there is a problem with kydex or there is a problem with the methodolgy. From this vantage point so far removed from the test conditions it's not really possible to say which it is. But a problem this dramatic should lend itself to temperature and impact testing under laboratory conditions so rigorous controls could be imposed, and that would shed light on real world tests. There must be some data out there already. Anyone have a government grant handy?
Cliff, the only person I see raising the issue of lying is you. It's a classic straw man Cliff and the only reason you raise it is to bolster your weak argument. IMO, that's sad.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
------------------
Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
- Joined
- Nov 7, 1999
- Messages
- 6,651
Hey Guys...
Wait,, Lets not get carried away and start calling each other liars...
That's Not what this is about.
I was going to wait until later to completely respond to this, but will now before this gets out of hand..
I Do not believe Cliff is lying about his testing. I do believe "some" of his testing is flawed and unscientific though.
First of all we have to get a couple of things straight...
When we say Kydex, lets mean Kydex.
When we say Concealex lets mean Concealex.
The broken sheath pictured is Concealex I believe.
Two Completely different Animals,like comparing Benchmade with Spyderco..
Secondly I apologize to Burke the original poster for sending this thread on a completely Different tangent than it was intended..
Thirdly I think I said "Inferior materials", Not "Products", and I would like to expand on what I meant by "Inferior Material",, meaning a possible bad batch of synthetics being kydex or Concealex whatever,,
I did Not know there was more than one knife involved in the cold weather testing procedure.
I also have No doubt that Extreme temperature conditions effect synthetics, I never said it didn't.
Blunt Force Trauma as I call it can happen at any temp, not Only under cold conditions.
I simple stated the fact that my testing on a (empty)small bladed sheath made from 60 grade Concealex in a pouch configuration Did Not shatter when hit repeatedly with a ball peen hammer in minus zero temps.
Only after I drove over it several times did the face fracture.The sheath was still fully functional and the fracture was cosmetic in nature.
What Cliff didn't mention,,or maybe I missed it,,but was the sheath empty or loaded ?
Now onto my "performance statements"
I warranty my products for 1 year against manufacturing defects,, Excluding exposure to heat due to neglect or tampering.
This statement can be found on my website
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel/mission.htm
"All On/Scene Tactical products come standard with a 1 year warranty against manufacturing defects and are hand tuned to get rid of as many rattles as possible. If you destroy it under normal working conditions, I'll replace or fix it at no cost!(exposure or tampering with high temperatures will void this warranty) A sheath of this high quality however should last you many years of a Service!"
Leaving a sheath made from thermalforming plastic on the dash of a car in Arizona at High Noon in my mind is neglect.
The same would be the case for CDs, Children, Pets, Cold Beer and Ice Cream.
The sheath shown in Cliff's post would have been replaced,, but Not because of a defect, rather because of mishap.
Would my sheath survive the exact same thing that happened to Rob's? Doubtful.
Would my sheath survive Cliff toss test? Ya probably.IMHO
Am I going to toss my $350.00 Battle Mistress
onto a concrete driveway to prove it,, Not Likely...
In my opinion with the experience I have in synthetic sheathing, a pouch style sheath is more structurally sound than a two piece sheath.
I do not warranty Against what I perceive to be Abuse/Misuse determined on a case by case basis.
If a person tosses his sheath against a concrete wall, it breaks and expects me to cough up a new sheath,,then,,LMAO Tooo Bad..
If the same person gets kicked by a horse,impacts with a fence and blows the front off of the sheath,,then Yes, Obviously I would be inclined to replacement after inspection of said sheath.
If the person breaks a clip in the process, I will replace. If he takes a Flame Thrower to it......Nope..
I believe if you take ten particular sheaths from the leading manufactures in synthetics i.e, Blade-tech, Edgeworks, Tactical Tools, River City Sheaths, On/Scene Tactical and perform the Exact same tests under laboratory conditions you will have similar results with all of the sheaths.
Where some results will be different will be in design in general.
IMHO
ttyle
Eric
------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing
Wait,, Lets not get carried away and start calling each other liars...
That's Not what this is about.
I was going to wait until later to completely respond to this, but will now before this gets out of hand..
I Do not believe Cliff is lying about his testing. I do believe "some" of his testing is flawed and unscientific though.
First of all we have to get a couple of things straight...
When we say Kydex, lets mean Kydex.
When we say Concealex lets mean Concealex.
The broken sheath pictured is Concealex I believe.
Two Completely different Animals,like comparing Benchmade with Spyderco..
Secondly I apologize to Burke the original poster for sending this thread on a completely Different tangent than it was intended..
Thirdly I think I said "Inferior materials", Not "Products", and I would like to expand on what I meant by "Inferior Material",, meaning a possible bad batch of synthetics being kydex or Concealex whatever,,
I did Not know there was more than one knife involved in the cold weather testing procedure.
I also have No doubt that Extreme temperature conditions effect synthetics, I never said it didn't.
Blunt Force Trauma as I call it can happen at any temp, not Only under cold conditions.
I simple stated the fact that my testing on a (empty)small bladed sheath made from 60 grade Concealex in a pouch configuration Did Not shatter when hit repeatedly with a ball peen hammer in minus zero temps.
Only after I drove over it several times did the face fracture.The sheath was still fully functional and the fracture was cosmetic in nature.
What Cliff didn't mention,,or maybe I missed it,,but was the sheath empty or loaded ?
Now onto my "performance statements"
I warranty my products for 1 year against manufacturing defects,, Excluding exposure to heat due to neglect or tampering.
This statement can be found on my website
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel/mission.htm
"All On/Scene Tactical products come standard with a 1 year warranty against manufacturing defects and are hand tuned to get rid of as many rattles as possible. If you destroy it under normal working conditions, I'll replace or fix it at no cost!(exposure or tampering with high temperatures will void this warranty) A sheath of this high quality however should last you many years of a Service!"
Leaving a sheath made from thermalforming plastic on the dash of a car in Arizona at High Noon in my mind is neglect.
The same would be the case for CDs, Children, Pets, Cold Beer and Ice Cream.
The sheath shown in Cliff's post would have been replaced,, but Not because of a defect, rather because of mishap.
Would my sheath survive the exact same thing that happened to Rob's? Doubtful.
Would my sheath survive Cliff toss test? Ya probably.IMHO
Am I going to toss my $350.00 Battle Mistress
onto a concrete driveway to prove it,, Not Likely...
In my opinion with the experience I have in synthetic sheathing, a pouch style sheath is more structurally sound than a two piece sheath.
I do not warranty Against what I perceive to be Abuse/Misuse determined on a case by case basis.
If a person tosses his sheath against a concrete wall, it breaks and expects me to cough up a new sheath,,then,,LMAO Tooo Bad..
If the same person gets kicked by a horse,impacts with a fence and blows the front off of the sheath,,then Yes, Obviously I would be inclined to replacement after inspection of said sheath.
If the person breaks a clip in the process, I will replace. If he takes a Flame Thrower to it......Nope..
I believe if you take ten particular sheaths from the leading manufactures in synthetics i.e, Blade-tech, Edgeworks, Tactical Tools, River City Sheaths, On/Scene Tactical and perform the Exact same tests under laboratory conditions you will have similar results with all of the sheaths.
Where some results will be different will be in design in general.
IMHO
ttyle
Eric
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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Messages
- 17,562
Normark:
I always thought the two were pretty much interchangable. Are there significant differences in heat resistance, strength toughness etc. . Do they look different?
Camillus has it described as Kydex on their webpage. The TOPS and Busse Combat one were also listed as Kydex.
As I stated above, while it is in use, during a fall, a sheath will experience far more impact stress than if I just drop it. If a sheath shatters during an impact and the blade comes out, well the rest is obvious.
It is I think a valid test for a sheath, and consider that leather and cordura easily pass it with no harm, one of the key points. Opinons obviously differ on what is a reasonable durability limit for sheaths as well as blades.
Can you make a sheath with the join running up the back rather than on the side. Have you tried it? This to me would seem to be more durable as the impact corners are now nice flowing curves. And the join is well protected as impacts will never hit from the inside.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-10-2001).]
I always thought the two were pretty much interchangable. Are there significant differences in heat resistance, strength toughness etc. . Do they look different?
Camillus has it described as Kydex on their webpage. The TOPS and Busse Combat one were also listed as Kydex.
As I stated above, while it is in use, during a fall, a sheath will experience far more impact stress than if I just drop it. If a sheath shatters during an impact and the blade comes out, well the rest is obvious.
It is I think a valid test for a sheath, and consider that leather and cordura easily pass it with no harm, one of the key points. Opinons obviously differ on what is a reasonable durability limit for sheaths as well as blades.
Can you make a sheath with the join running up the back rather than on the side. Have you tried it? This to me would seem to be more durable as the impact corners are now nice flowing curves. And the join is well protected as impacts will never hit from the inside.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-10-2001).]
Eric,
I also would like to know the substantial difference between Kydex and Concealex, other than manufacturer and appearance. I didn't know there was a signifacant difference in functional terms. Can you fill us in, if that won't involve you in a squabble between brands etc?
I also would like to know the substantial difference between Kydex and Concealex, other than manufacturer and appearance. I didn't know there was a signifacant difference in functional terms. Can you fill us in, if that won't involve you in a squabble between brands etc?
Cliff Stamp's testing is among the most scientific there is for product type evaluations. And how many samples do you think the big testing firms use? How many samples did his critics PERSONALLY test? And Cliff does it for NO compensation, unlike the big testing firms that make money off of their findings or the manufacturers that take pot shots at him for his findings without backing up their claims with a real guarantee or testing the products they build (and MAKE MONEY OFF OF) nearly as well as he does. Instead they usually choose to talk about how many satisfied customers they have (that we don't know how many of which use a knife for letter\box opening or looking at at its hardest) or attack his testing methods. If most of the makers had their way, all evaluations would be based on looks without ever actually using the equipment. Hey, most of the "tests" here ARE like that! Maybe thats why Cliff catches all the flack, he's one of the few that actually uses and tests his equipment.
- Joined
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Yegads, lets not start another fight.
Gentlemen PLEASE!!!
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Gentlemen PLEASE!!!
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!