Spyderco CPM440V Rockwell?

Hmmm.... Looks like I jumped to a conclusion. I've never had CPM440V so I can honestly say that I haven't any experience with the super steels. I was expecting behavior similar to the mass of stainless steels (440C, ATS-34, BG-42, etc.) All behave very similarly and the RC hardness is a pretty good indicator of the edge holding ability. Look on the general discussion group where there is a very good thread on 440V/420V. I learned a lot. Looks like Sal has been doing his homework. A lot of other knife makers with experience using these steels agree with him. Sorry Sal for doubting you.
smile.gif
I'll put it to the test...let you know later.

jj
 
We use the Rc that we do because in our testing, it provided the best edge retention AND toughness.

440V at 55/56 outperformed almost everything that we tested by 20+%. CPM420V, BG42 and ZDP-189 (Hitachi's powdered metal) were in the same range. The BG42 we tested was heat treated by Chris Reeve and was a higher Rc. The 420V was at a lower Rc. The ZDP was surprizingly hard (Rc 65).

MRS-30, VG-10 & MBS-26 were up there with the others in initial sharpness, but not in edge retention. Talonite was up there in edge retention, but not in initial sharpness. (Quite amazing considering the very low Rc of Talonite.)

Hope this helps. Thanx for the "faith"

O_D - BTW, I think you just have a bad blade. we ended up with several that for some reason escaped heat treat???. If you would return it, We'd be happy to make it right. I don't think that the results you are experiencing is indicitive of either the steel or the model.

sal


[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 09 October 1999).]
 
Misque / Drew, in no way did I (or do I) think Spyderco is not doing a good job at what they are doing. My comment about faith simply stands that without questioning there cannot be learning. This however is almost getting into a religious debate so I'll leave it there.

Drew, there are a couple of problems with what you describe. First off soft materials are usually low strength and this means that the edge will impact and roll easier than a hard one. It does little good to have hard carbides present if they are not focused in a nice crisp line. The problems I have seen reported with the Militaries have all been when the edge was used to cut hard materials and this is where softer can be very bad. Minor note though, as the steel wears away what does not happen is that new carbides get exposed. What happens is that they just eventually round off and the edge gets polished and starts to lose its bite.

I discussed this with Phil Wilson as I noticed some rather odd behavior with my CPM-10V blade. It was getting much smoother as I resharpened it compared to the edge it had when he sent me it. What was happening is that I was just using a steel and a ceramic rod to maintain the edge and over time while I was restoring the steel matrix I was not doing anything to the worn carbides. A little grinding on a diamond stone made a huge difference in how the edge behaved.

This behavior can easily be seen. Yesterday I did some cutting on an old car mat. I was cutting strip off, about 4 feet long and noting how many slices it took to cut each strip off. The first few cuts were very low pressure and the mat parted easily. After about 75 slices the blade showed a little blunting and it took about 25% more slices to cut through a strip. However 300 cuts later it pretty much still had the same performance.

Basically while the relatively soft steel matrix (63 RC) deforms rather easily when exposed to the dirt and grit as compared to the much harder Vanadium carbides (80-85 RC). Using a ceramic rod on the edge polished it but would not restore the bite. However 5 strokes on an 8" fine DMT easily had the edge back in line and acting very aggressive.

Sal thanks for the info, how do you measure toughness?


-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12 October 1999).]
 
Cliff, are you suggesting that high-tech steels like CPM-440V may require a different sharpening regimen than say ATS-34? That soft-matrix/hard-carbide type steels respond better to diamond vs ceramic sharpeners due to the hardness of the carbides.

Or does it amount to a more general observation that these types of steels are better served with an unpolished edge, in order to let the abundant carbides work to their best advantage in slicing?
 
Sal, I guess I'll have to give up my blade for a little while, eh?
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I was very serious when I said that I love this knife, and I hate to send it back in. But, I guess I need to put my money where my mouth is and let your people take a look at it, see if it's a "softie." I really hope that you nor anyone else got the wrong idea from my posts. I DO NOT in any way want to suggest that Spyderco does not put out a first rate product, second to none. I just have to throw in my experiences when I kept hearing of the tales of the wonders of 440V. I think someone (Longden?) in the general discussion forum puts it best:

My advice: don't buy this knife expecting the 440V to make the waters part... I think what all the discussions have shown is that YMMV, depending on the kind of service you put the knife into.

It may be that I was looking for the waters to part. Anyway....

Should I just send it to the address given in the Spyderco Catalog?

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Sometimes you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug.
Outlaw_Dogboy


 
Over the years it has seemed that certain hones (and honing combinations)work better for a particular blade than others. Since the heat treatment process can change the carbide structure of the blades I don't just attribute these particularities to the alloy. There are also lots of blade geometry issues that influence optimum sharpeness as well.

For example I got a Buck Master Series model 501 folder last week. It has a fairly thin 2-5/8" blade of BG42 alloy. One of the reasons I got it was to see if I could make it shave like a straight razor (no it's not practical, but it's a thing I do). I put it through my basic sharpening sequence: thin edge using medium course diamond hone, smooth the thinned bevel using extra-fine diamond hone (gee that feels real sharp), refine the edge using extra fine ceramic rods, strop on hard leather with chromium oxide buffing compound. The result shaved well, but wasn't really where I wanted it.

I took the knife to work with me on Sunday. I was bugged that I couldn't get a clean shave of my two-day old beard stubble (it shaved, but left some stubble behind). I thought back how sharp the edge felt before I used the ceramic rods and strop. I thought maybe the edge would shave better with a slight bit of toothiness, and maybe even a touch of wire edge. I tried stropping the edge using a Norton india stone I keep in my office desk. It didn't seem better, probably worse. I tried a little honing and stropping with a small Blackjack Knives hone from my desk, it seemed even worse. I tried stropping on various surfaces available in my office--no joy. (Note to self, get razor strop for office). It ruined my day.

Last night I thought of an alternate path. Return to the medium then extra fine diamond plates. Then use my 1000 and 4000 grit Japanese water stones. Refine the edge with a little work on freshly cleaned ceramic rods. Then strop on a relatively non abrasive plain leather razor strop. This worked much better.

What did I learn? It seemed that the BG42 liked really clean and sharp honing particles and then a non abrasive stropping. I've had other knives that really love the Norton India stones, but it just isn't universal. Way back when it seemed like the basic carbon steels liked an oily India Stone followed by stropping on leather with red iron oxide buffing compound. They seemed to get more of a razor edge that way.

I like Cliff's explanation of how the sharpening with diamond cleans up the carbides. I suspect that some of the clean up is actually ripping out some carbides and exposing fresh ones. I don't think that diamond is absolutely necessary for the harder steels, but I would want a hone that is not 'loaded' with metal or glazed from use (got the edges worn off the abrasive particles). The Japanese water stones have an advantage of shedding their worn abrasive particles to expose sharp-faced particles. I try and keep my ceramic rods clean by scouring them with sink cleanser.

It's good to try different sharpening procedures and tools on different knives. Sometimes you just have to experiment if you really want the ultimate performance. Of course any sane person would have been happy with the edge I got off the extra-fine diamond plate.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 12 October 1999).]
 
Great details Jeff:

I tried stropping the edge using a Norton india stone I keep in my office desk. It didn't seem better, probably worse. I tried a little honing and stropping with a small Blackjack Knives hone from my desk, it seemed even worse. I tried stropping on various surfaces available in my office

ROTFL... sounds like my office...down to the Norton india stone. I started keeping my stuff here to keep my wife from seeing all the sharpening gadgets. I wonder how many co-workers flinch when they hear me sharpening.

BTW, where'd you get that heretical 501? I was looking for the 110 Master Series myself (sorry Sal, but your knives do outnumber everything else in my collection anyway, and I know you appreciate balance).

Back on topic: it sounds like a matter of different steels responding differently to different hones. I wonder what stones CRK recommends for the sharpening of their BG-42?
 
OK, Sal (er..., I mean, Mr. Glesser), new question, please.
Could it be that the initial edge on the BF Native was so thin that it allowed the edge to roll so much when I nicked the staple? Reason I ask is, I took out the BFNative, to see if you could even see the nick anymore, which you can't. As I said, I have finally gotten it sharpened enough times that the nick was mostly gone (well, all the way gone). So, I, ... uh,... ummm, ...
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duplicated the incident. Different results. Little edge rolling. It did blunt it a lot, but it will still sort of cut paper. But, it didn't nick it, or roll the edge, nearly as bad as the first time it happened. Weird!

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Sometimes you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug.
Outlaw_Dogboy


 
Longden,

I got the 501 from Cumberland knives. They're having a closeout on them (the last Master Series they have in stock). The 501 is a much smaller knife than a 110, more the size of a traditional jack knife. A gentleman's town knife that could probably skin a moose. I got it for places that my Starmate is too big. Besides it doesn't look funny. If you want a Master Series Buck 110 get them to make you an equivalent with their new web-based custom shop. I've been thinking BG42 blade and stag grips myself.

Outlaw_Dogboy: One possibility with your staple failure is that the factory edge could have been left with a sharp burr or "wire" edge. It's easy to get a very sharp edge that's basically foil on the edge of the blade. These are real sharp, but roll with the slightest use. Proper honing, edge-first, and alternating side to side, takes off the wire and leaves a more solid edge.
 
OD - (BTW "sal" is fine). It sounds soft to me. We have to soften for some preocedures, then harden. I cannot explain why it would still be soft, but that's what it sounds like. Have to test it here though to find out. If you send it in, Please make sure to call it to my attention. Thanx.

sal
 
Longden :

[referring to what I wrote]

soft-matrix/hard-carbide type steels respond better to diamond vs ceramic sharpeners due to the hardness of the carbides.

Basically yes. The hones used should be hard enough to actually cut into the knife. With some very high alloy steels the carbide content is very large, and the carbides are actually harder than some hones. The AO stones for example are much softer than the Vanadium carbides. The cutting action will go the other way if you try to sharpen the knife.

As Jeff noted, different steels respond to different sharpening methods and you should try a wide varity of method and hones to get the most out of your blades.

Concerning wire edges, while they can blunt easily I doubt they would extend enough into the blade to allow for a visible deformation to result from their fracture. Their width is just related to the grit size of the honing medium which is very small.

-Cliff
 
Jeff, thanks for that info ... I've always wanted a Buck to offset my Spyder infestation. I agree that the size is actually more to my liking than the 110. The BG-42 is an added bonus, if they got the heat-treat right.

Cliff, this sounds like 440V could provide an added impetus for Spyderco to give us a long-awaited diamond option. Thanks for giving me more food for thought, "edgewise".

I'm trying to order a 2nd BF native from Mike Turber (with modifications...serrations on the swedge), and would like to see how the plain-edged 440V blade performs myself.

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"Cogito ergo spud"

I think, therefore I yam
 
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