Stainless vs Carbon Steel Sword Blades

Big ti alloy blades: Better than high-quality iron alloy? No, just really good also. With some odd-ball characteristics that are a nice bonus for large blades.

The point is that Ti has long been blown off as worthless for the purpose, but it's actually quite nice. There are many alloys of titanium, as varied in character as the list of steel alloys out there.
 
Thanks, to the late John Moore who started Mission Knives, for his forward thinking.
rolf
 
I don't see the light weight of titanium as being a real asset. A properly balanced steel blade only weighs in at between 2 and 3 lbs. Much of the cutting ability of a sword is derived from the mass moving at speed, and lightening that by a great degree- you're losing cutting ability and you're not going to be able to swing a superlight sword fast enough to make that up.
 
I wonder if anyone has ever tried 301 FULL HARD ? work hardened to the low 40s IIRC .It certainly makes nice springs .
 
KnifeMakeReplicate said:
I was told by a seasoned knife maker that most alloys of stainless and stain resistant steels are not suited for battlefield swords because the stainless steel is not as elastic, not as shock-resistant, and carbon spring steel is the best type of steel for actual battle-worthy swords. Is this correct or are there some forms of stainless steel that would work as a decent sword for actual battlefield fighting?
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The right stainless steel, with the right heat treatment, will work. Carbon steel will typically give you either a higher hardness for the same toughness, or more toughness for the same hardness, so the compromise with stainless steel is that you will lose some hardness (and therefore edge retention) or toughness for that gain in corrosion resistance. A stainless alloy like 440A, tempered a little softer than you might for a carbon steel blade of the same carbon content, should be sufficiently tough (and can be tougher than the higher-carbon carbon steels like 1095). You could get an even tougher blade with a lower carbon stainless alloy like 420J2, although then you will have a soft blade by modern sword standards (but plenty of historical examples with HRC hardness in the 40s). Higher-carbon stainless alloys like 440C heat treated hard would be asking for trouble.

Cheap and nasty stainless swords usually fail at the tang/blade junction or otherwise fail in the hilt. Because they're badly made, not because the blade is stainless.
 
"The right stainless steel, with the right heat treatment, will work. Carbon steel will typically give you either a higher hardness for the same toughness, or more toughness for the same hardness, so the compromise with stainless steel is that you will lose some hardness (and therefore edge retention) or toughness for that gain in corrosion resistance."

Which is why most sword makers and users opt for the carbon steel. As long as you're taking care of it with oil and polish, it's not going to rust or even stain.

"A stainless alloy like 440A, tempered a little softer than you might for a carbon steel blade of the same carbon content, should be sufficiently tough (and can be tougher than the higher-carbon carbon steels like 1095)."

I heard Bill Bagwell approved of Ontario Knife Company's use of 440A in their factory made Bagwell Helle's Belle bowie knives. So I gather he must have tested it and found that it was tough enough, since Bagwell is a staunch carbon steel proponent and obsessed with steel toughness.

"You could get an even tougher blade with a lower carbon stainless alloy like 420J2, although then you will have a soft blade by modern sword standards (but plenty of historical examples with HRC hardness in the 40s)."

I have often wondered just how tough Cold Steel's laminated San Mai III steel blades are, such as in their Natchez Bowie. They have a hard inside steel of VG1 and a soft outside steel of 420J. I have wondered whether those are tougher than straight 1095 or 1080/1084?

"Higher-carbon stainless alloys like 440C heat treated hard would be asking for trouble."

Except that a few makers, like Dawson, were able to use 440C for swords. I have not come across any complaints about toughness. So I guess it really is mostly about heat treat. Dawson did eventually switch to another steel. I think it was 5160. And now Dawson uses German 80CrV2, a carbon steel, supposed to be like 5160 but even better.

"Cheap and nasty stainless swords usually fail at the tang/blade junction or otherwise fail in the hilt. Because they're badly made, not because the blade is stainless."

Because of poor heat treat and inclusions in their steel. Although modern steel is supposed to be highly reliable in its chemical content, I've heard that steel made in China (PROC) is highly suspect for cutting corners and using mystery steels, resulting in extremely poor quality steel.
 
GrReaper said:
"Cheap and nasty stainless swords usually fail at the tang/blade junction or otherwise fail in the hilt. Because they're badly made, not because the blade is stainless."

Because of poor heat treat and inclusions in their steel. Although modern steel is supposed to be highly reliable in its chemical content, I've heard that steel made in China (PROC) is highly suspect for cutting corners and using mystery steels, resulting in extremely poor quality steel.
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The failure is usually an issue of construction, not materials. Lots of the el cheapo wall hanger swords are simply rat-tail tangs poorly welded onto the blades. The welds crack or the very thin tangs break.
 
althesmith said:
I don't see the light weight of titanium as being a real asset. A properly balanced steel blade only weighs in at between 2 and 3 lbs. Much of the cutting ability of a sword is derived from the mass moving at speed, and lightening that by a great degree- you're losing cutting ability and you're not going to be able to swing a superlight sword fast enough to make that up.
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Make the ti sword 35% larger than the steel counterpart. It will still be 2-3 lbs and even quicker than the steel one. That's not a disadvantage - speed and accuracy are king!
 
Mecha said:
Make the ti sword 35% larger than the steel counterpart. It will still be 2-3 lbs and even quicker than the steel one. That's not a disadvantage - speed and accuracy are king!
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By making it that much larger, you're also putting out the point of balance and increasing recovery time. 2-3 lbs is normal sword weight anyhow. Still don't see any advantage in the Ti blade.
 
madcap_magician said:
The failure is usually an issue of construction, not materials. Lots of the el cheapo wall hanger swords are simply rat-tail tangs poorly welded onto the blades. The welds crack or the very thin tangs break.
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Yeah, weak tangs fail a lot too. But it's hard to quantify the types of failures. After all, who keeps stats for that stuff? A lot of catastrophic failures, like the one on youtube with the knife/sword salesman, must be bad heat treat or impurities/inclusions. Blade suddenly shattering just because he tapped the sword on the table? Obviously that was an issue with the steel itself.
 
Quick few points to add here, as I understand things...

(Mecha could correct me if I'm wrong) but I think he skipped a few details in his responses (probably expecting you to read his other posts about Ti):

1. the regular titanium alloy used in handles on flippers etc is NOT a good sword material... this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti-6Al-4V which is a 'alpha and beta' form...
2. what Mecha uses is the more beta end of of the Ti alloy spectrum, which is really complex stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy
3. any properly made steel sword using good sword steel will be harder than a similar sword of Ti (but not as tough), but because of the complex nature of beta Ti, Mecha seems to have largely compensated for that shortfall... this beta Ti stuff seems to be work hardened in addition to heat treatment, and it looks to be quite excellent, and can approach some steel-level hardness. (I think he's managed the mid 50's?) which is amazing for Ti alloy

enjoy your learning experience, there is a LOT to learn here
 
dirc said:
Quick few points to add here, as I understand things...

(Mecha could correct me if I'm wrong) but I think he skipped a few details in his responses (probably expecting you to read his other posts about Ti):

1. the regular titanium alloy used in handles on flippers etc is NOT a good sword material... this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti-6Al-4V which is a 'alpha and beta' form...
2. what Mecha uses is the more beta end of of the Ti alloy spectrum, which is really complex stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy
3. any properly made steel sword using good sword steel will be harder than a similar sword of Ti (but not as tough), but because of the complex nature of beta Ti, Mecha seems to have largely compensated for that shortfall... this beta Ti stuff seems to be work hardened in addition to heat treatment, and it looks to be quite excellent, and can approach some steel-level hardness. (I think he's managed the mid 50's?) which is amazing for Ti alloy

enjoy your learning experience, there is a LOT to learn here
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That's the basics, although it gets a lot more complicated from there, not just metallurgy but with philosophy of swords in general (and types of swords in particular) and the slew of desirable characteristics in a material to make a good one. There is the titanium alloy used and how the alloying elements affect the long blade, the heat treatment and how it alters the results, the work input and how it changes things, then the shape of the blade itself, and how little subtleties make a huge difference in flex, impact and motion. Then there is balance in movement, which there is a lot more to than just a see-saw balance point. The sword can be optimized for certain types of use too, of course - massive cutting power or nuanced dueling, thrusting, etc.
 
2lbs of any ti alloys weigh the same as 2lbs of any steel alloys, or for that matter, 2lbs of feathers.

Mecha said:
Make the ti sword 35% larger than the steel counterpart. It will still be 2-3 lbs and even quicker than the steel one. That's not a disadvantage - speed and accuracy are king!
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What am I missing here? 2-3lbs of either require the same amount of energy to overcome inertia, right?

If we are to quantify benefits, let us look at rotational forces, momentum and other factors before we claim any superiority. Heads up, equal dimensions, all the junk than can really support an argument one way or the other. Is faster equal to kinetic energy? You need the variables to compute that, right? Is less mass at a higher velocity delivering as much energy as more mass traveling slower with more momentum? Again, you need the variables to compute this stuff.

:p

GC
 
GrReaper said:
Yeah, weak tangs fail a lot too. But it's hard to quantify the types of failures. After all, who keeps stats for that stuff? A lot of catastrophic failures, like the one on youtube with the knife/sword salesman, must be bad heat treat or impurities/inclusions. Blade suddenly shattering just because he tapped the sword on the table? Obviously that was an issue with the steel itself.
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That example you are talking about is from that knife selling infomercial. The knives they sold on there were pure wallhanger crap made extremely poorly out of the absolute cheapest worst steel they could find.


Swords of this quality are not even swords. Another issue is transitions from the tang to the blade with sharp corners rather than radiused ones. This causes an area where stress fractures tend to happen.
 
FWIW, I had championed smaller lighter blades as quicker, while allowing heavier longer blades deliver more energy in developing more momentum (requiring more energy to achieve that).

So, is a 5.56mm booking along at an incredible speed more effective than a .45 acp in cqc? If a point is the accuracy, is a longer blade of the same weight as the shorter one an advantage? Is the shorter blade delivering more momentum at its tip in a perfect rotation? All that junk. Let's plot all that before we claim king of the hill.

Cheez

GC
 
Oh gourd, you're really going to drag up a 16 yr (or so) year old video to show the good, bad and ugly?

Lapedog said:
That example you are talking about is from that knife selling infomercial. The knives they sold on there were pure wallhanger crap made extremely poorly out of the absolute cheapest worst steel they could find.


Swords of this quality are not even swords. Another issue is transitions from the tang to the blade with sharp corners rather than radiused ones. This causes an area where stress fractures tend to happen.
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Also, fwiw, Al Massey aka althesmith has been around the block a few times.

I am reminded of the beaver sword for fun and more recently Blackbird's Lament surfacing. A collaborative affair with Jake Powning iirc.

5T8YdT7.jpg


Huzzah

GC
 
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My whole point is that sword design and materials are a lot more complicated than "what's the HRc" and "mass = cutting power." Otherwise, if you're about to sword fight someone I bet almost everyone would pick a katana over a tanto. :D
 
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