Steel Comparison

[Coyote420]

If you would ask the general swedish population about knife steels you would not score many good answers. VG10 is also quite rare in Sweden, only Fällkniven basically and they export most knives anyway.

The people who I meet and who has a genuine interest in blade steels here are the custom makers and they use almost exclusively Sandvik 12C27 and Uddeholm AEB-L. They are quite similar and fulfill what they require, which is:
*Tough (Swedish knives are thinner than US ones)
*Easy to polish (custom guys loves this fact)
*Easy to sharpen (coarse grades like ATS-34, VG10 or 440C does not take a thin Scandi grind as easy)
*Good hardness range (58-60 HRC is most common for them)

About Moras. Many of my friends dont see the point in getting other knives than a few Moras. They are cheaper here in Sweden than the US and the performance is superb as a slicer imo. You get a stainless clipper here for 7$, and that includes 25% sales tax. I love more high-end knives but find it hard to not agree with their point of view. The good thing is that anyone can afford and try one.

Looks like Mora mostly uses High Carbon Steel, how does the non-laminated compare to the laminated?

As for their stainless blades, how does the 12C27mod (Eriksson) compare to 12C27 (Frost)?

I think it's well known that stainless steels have a higher corrosion resistance than non-stainless, but how drastic of a difference is it? Most of the corrosion tests are done by soaking the blade in salt water, but who ever actually lets their blade soak in salt water, or fresh water for that mater, for long periods of time besides divers or fishermen? So for northern forest use, where most of the water is fresh rivers, lakes, or rain, and the blade will not sit in the water for long periods of time but may still be wet consistently, does the difference in corrosion resistance actually make a significant difference?

What are people's thoughts on the wooden handles versus the rubber handles? I think I would like the feel of wood better, though the shape of the rubber handles may have a better grip.

Razorsharp, you mentioned Uddeholm AEB-L, I've never seen that mentioned before, more info? Also, you say that the coarse grade steels like VG10 don't take a "Scandi grind" as well, what do you mean by Scandi grind? Is that like sharpening on a grinding wheel as opposed to a flat stone? Also, I would think that a blade with a finer grain, which would make it more readily sharpened or ground down, would also make it more readily blunted and dull, thoughts?

Anyone, if you were to have one knife for the rest of your life, and it was to be your only tool besides your hands and teeth, and all modern technologies and conveniences were removed, which knife would you chose?

 

[Coyote420]

I'm betting your buddys knife was being used for something it wasn't supposed to previous to the blade breaking. Knife blades just don't break from wittling soft wood or any wood for that matter. I'll bet bataning or prying could have been involved as a defect should have shown up in the blade within a year I would think. Depends on how much use it got.

I am quite the opposite. I love high carbon steels. After using them I clean them up and oil them. Never had any issues. Of coarse, I have some stainless blades that have given me no issues as well. Just depends on the company offering the steel. Some are better than others.


S30V
D2

So which companies do you think offer the best stainless blades?

That's a creepy picture by the way.

 

[rifon2]

So which companies do you think offer the best stainless blades?

Wow, there are many, many knife companies offering great stainless blades.

One point worth mentioning is that the steel is being purchased by the knife companies from various steel manufacturers - Crucible, Latrobe, Sandvik, Bohler, Takefu, Hitachi, and others - and then the knife companies are heat-treating and otherwise working with the purchased steel to their own specifications.

There are really fine stainless blades available from Spyderco, CRK, Bark River, Buck, Benchmade, Fallkniven, various Scandinavian companies - it's a long list.

 

[Coyote420]

Wow, there are many, many knife companies offering great stainless blades.

One point worth mentioning is that the steel is being purchased by the knife companies from various steel manufacturers - Crucible, Latrobe, Sandvik, Bohler, Takefu, Hitachi, and others - and then the knife companies are heat-treating and otherwise working with the purchased steel to their own specifications.

There are really fine stainless blades available from Spyderco, CRK, Bark River, Buck, Benchmade, Fallkniven, various Scandinavian companies - it's a long list.

That is a good point to mention. So which three knife makers would be your top preferences, specifically for stainless?

 

[rifon2]

That is a good point to mention. So which three knife makers would be your top preferences, specifically for stainless?

Well, look, I've been collecting and working with knives for a pretty long time.
I don't think I could list only three knife companies and I'm not gonna try.

IMO a few at the top (this is not an all-inclusive list) are Spyderco (which offers a wide variety of top stainless steels especially in the Military model), CRK (that's Chris Reeve Knives, not CRKT), Buck's BG-42, S30V, and 154CM with their terrific Paul Bos heat treat, the previously mentinoned laminated VG-10 from Fallkniven, and Bob Dozier's D2.

D2 is not a true "stainless", but close enough.

In fact, if I were in your shoes, I'd take a good close look at the Bob Dozier knives.
They are customs but reasonably priced overall, relatively speaking; and the quality is absolutely superb.
www.agrussell.com has several on hand for immediate delivery, otherwise you're looking at a pretty long (& worthwhile) wait.

 

[Coyote420]

Buck's BG-42, S30V, and 154CM with their terrific Paul Bos heat treat, the previously mentinoned laminated VG-10 from Fallkniven, and Bob Dozier's D2.

D2 is not a true "stainless", but close enough.

In fact, if I were in your shoes, I'd take a good close look at the Bob Dozier knives.
They are customs but reasonably priced overall, relatively speaking; and the quality is absolutely superb.
www.agrussell.com

Dozier does have some nice knives, reasonably priced but a bit high for me.

How do you think Buck S30V compares with Fallkniven VG10?

 

[alaskanativeson]

Anyone, if you were to have one knife for the rest of your life, and it was to be your only tool besides your hands and teeth, and all modern technologies and conveniences were removed, which knife would you chose?

Easy. Busse Badger Attack. This knife approaches magical in its abilities.

There are some good steels on your list, but I think you've discounted one of the best without cause. 1095 is an old standby, and it's one of the best. A RC-4 from RAT Cutlery is just about a perfect utility knife. The blade is a great balance between a large utility knife and a small hunting knife. There aren't many things you will expect your knife to do that it won't do well. Yes, 1095 is prone to rust, but only if you're failing to provide the most basic of care.

For a very inexpensive but good useable knife I'd have to agree that a Mora is a great choice. I just got two from Ragweed Forge that are really good knives, especially when you consider that I only paid $12 a piece for them. They're not going to handle abuse like my beloved Busse will, but I'd have no problem with recommending it for a good all-around user.

 

[Coyote420]

Easy. Busse Badger Attack. This knife approaches magical in its abilities.

I would definitely go for the Badger Attack too, but why does Busse have to make their reflective knives, the satin finish or "Limited Edition," more expensive?

 

[rifon2]

Dozier does have some nice knives, reasonably priced but a bit high for me.

How do you think Buck S30V compares with Fallkniven VG10?

First, I want to say that I think alaskanativeson makes some really good points in his post. :thumbup:

As for a comparison of the two steels you mentioned, I think it's the kind of question that could fuel a very extended debate.

Does Buck make a knife in S30V that you'd consider buying?
It doesn't seem so.
So it appears that you're back to a Fallkniven, which is a great knife and suitable for the purposes you mentioned in your OP.

 

[Coyote420]

First, I want to say that I think alaskanativeson makes some really good points in his post. :thumbup:

As for a comparison of the two steels you mentioned, I think it's the kind of question that could fuel a very extended debate.

Does Buck make a knife in S30V that you'd consider buying?
It doesn't seem so.
So it appears that you're back to a Fallkniven, which is a great knife and suitable for the purposes you mentioned in your OP.

Everything does seem to be pointing towards the Fallkniven.

alaskanatison does make very good points, so Fallkniven vs Mora?

Price is obviously in favor of Mora, but will it last just as long if put through the exact same usage and maintenance care, or would the high carbon blade require more cleaning to resist rust? Mnyshrpknvs, the guy with the creepy picture, said that he would clean and oil his high carbon blades after each use, necessary?

Would one need to be sharpened more often?

 

[rifon2]

Everything does seem to be pointing towards the Fallkniven.

alaskanatison does make very good points, so Fallkniven vs Mora?

Price is obviously in favor of Mora, but will it last just as long if put through the exact same usage and maintenance care, or would the high carbon blade require more cleaning to resist rust? Mnyshrpknvs, the guy with the creepy picture, said that he would clean and oil his high carbon blades after each use, necessary?

Would one need to be sharpened more often?

The Mora is not meant to perform overall like the Fallkniven, and won't.

As for carbon steel - it does require regular cleaning and oiling to resist rust.
That's the main reason why so many manufacturers coat their carbon steel blades. With use, though, those coatings scratch and wear.
(And, of course, the edge necessarily remains uncoated, requiring normal maintenance.)

 

[Razorsharp244]

Looks like Mora mostly uses High Carbon Steel, how does the non-laminated compare to the laminated?

As for their stainless blades, how does the 12C27mod (Eriksson) compare to 12C27 (Frost)?

I think it's well known that stainless steels have a higher corrosion resistance than non-stainless, but how drastic of a difference is it? Most of the corrosion tests are done by soaking the blade in salt water, but who ever actually lets their blade soak in salt water, or fresh water for that mater, for long periods of time besides divers or fishermen? So for northern forest use, where most of the water is fresh rivers, lakes, or rain, and the blade will not sit in the water for long periods of time but may still be wet consistently, does the difference in corrosion resistance actually make a significant difference?

What are people's thoughts on the wooden handles versus the rubber handles? I think I would like the feel of wood better, though the shape of the rubber handles may have a better grip.

Razorsharp, you mentioned Uddeholm AEB-L, I've never seen that mentioned before, more info? Also, you say that the coarse grade steels like VG10 don't take a "Scandi grind" as well, what do you mean by Scandi grind? Is that like sharpening on a grinding wheel as opposed to a flat stone? Also, I would think that a blade with a finer grain, which would make it more readily sharpened or ground down, would also make it more readily blunted and dull, thoughts?

Anyone, if you were to have one knife for the rest of your life, and it was to be your only tool besides your hands and teeth, and all modern technologies and conveniences were removed, which knife would you chose?

Hi again,
I'll try to answer a few of your questions.
12C27 vs 12C27M. Since they heat treat to the same HRC I would consider the difference small. 12C27M has higher corrosion resistance abut lower wear resistance (due to lower carbide volume).

Uddeholm AEB-L is quite similar to Sandvik 13C26. It's originally made for razorblades. You'll find Sandvik in Gillette and Schick and Uddeholm in some african made junk (just kidding, I work for Sandvik btw). It would take a wizard to tell the grades apart in a similar heat treated knife blade. In extremely acute razor edges we believe that ours is better (and vice versa I presume).

Scandi grind is a flat grind that is not a "full flat". Your Mora is a prime example of a Scandi grind. It's fairly easy to resharpen because of it's "simple" geometry and it works wonders for whittling and wood cutting chores. In the US it's common with a thick blade with a large primary grind + secondary bevel. This secondary bevel is, by swedish standards, very obtuse (can still be sharp of course) at 25-35 deg/side. Compare with a Mora (Scandi) and you have almost no secondary bevel at all. This kind of this geometry is more difficult to make/maintain with a coarse carbide steel grade such as 440C and 154CM. this is why these steels aren't used much in Sweden.

No steel fulfills all demands and the weight of importance of different properties is different across our globe.

 

[Razorsharp244]

Also, I would think that a blade with a finer grain, which would make it more readily sharpened or ground down, would also make it more readily blunted and dull, thoughts?
QUOTE]

Ok I'll bite on this one although it's a controversial subject. I believe your statement is false. I'll eleborate with my view on the CATRA test.

Catra tests cutting ability through sandpaper. Paper impregnated with grains of siliconoxid (sand). It measures how many cuts can be made until the blade cust below a certain value. So that is essentially the same thing as testing how fast you can grind away a sharp edge (siliconoxid is harder than steel). Which would be a suitable test for re-grindability. IMO this is what the test shows. Coarse grades are getting a favored value since the exposed carbides will act as a micro-saw even if the blade is as dull as a butter knife. Also geometry has a huge impact on the test, bigger than the effect of what steel grade is used.

Also Catra does not take edge-stability into respect, which is the most common factor for "dullness". Either by edge-rolling or chipping/tear-outs. Chipping would probably even increase the Catra-value.

Then we have the whole "what is sharp, what is dull?" question. We are supplying the medical industry scalpels and other surgical blades with 13C26. 440C simply dont get sharp enough to be used in eye-surgery for instance. Only fine-grain stainless and carbon steel (1095) does. Does it make a difference for knives....well sometimes I think. Not always.

In general we get VERY different feedback if we compare CATRA, where we and all other fine carbide steels are low, with field testing. Like skinning game for instance. Many times people surprised at the edge-retention they get because of good stability and non-existing chipping and tear-outs.

So as a conclusion I would say that the edge retention depends on what you cut, coarse/fine carbides, hardness (resistance to edge rolling), stability (minimized rolling and eliminating chipping) and wear resistance.

I doubt you have sharpen a 12C27 blade more often that a 440C/154CM if you are a hunter cleaning game. If you are mainly cutting cardboard the 154CM/440C will outcut 12C27 for sure because of the effect of micro-serrations.

 

[Coyote420]

The Mora is not meant to perform overall like the Fallkniven, and won't.

Scandi grind is a flat grind that is not a "full flat". Your Mora is a prime example of a Scandi grind. It's fairly easy to resharpen because of it's "simple" geometry and it works wonders for whittling and wood cutting chores. In the US it's common with a thick blade with a large primary grind + secondary bevel. This secondary bevel is, by swedish standards, very obtuse (can still be sharp of course) at 25-35 deg/side. Compare with a Mora (Scandi) and you have almost no secondary bevel at all. This kind of this geometry is more difficult to make/maintain with a coarse carbide steel grade such as 440C and 154CM. this is why these steels aren't used much in Sweden.

No steel fulfills all demands and the weight of importance of different properties is different across our globe.

Thank you for such an informative response Razorsharp, and Rifon thank you for keeping in mind my situation and responding accordingly.

As for the Scandi grind, I have noticed the "large primary grind + secondary bevel" on some knives and always thought that it was a drawback to have that 'obtuse' angle because it would get worn down quicker and flatten out into the primary grind, and so needing to be ground and beveled again, though that would take a really really long time. but what i'm wondering is, Fallkniven describes their S1 to be "convex ground for extra strong cutting power with no risk for edge breakage" is this 'convex ground' another term for 'Scandi grind'? you said the scandi is a flat grind but not a "full flat" does that mean its somewhat rounded? when i think of convex i think of an outward curve and so i picture the blade being like a mix between a U and a V, like a U coming to the point of a V, and would think that outward curve would get in the way when sharpening. can someone better explain the convex grind?

.........

so i just found this website which answered those questions. http://backyardbushman.com/?page_id=13 seems the convex grind is the U-V combo type thing i described. I've read a lot of people saying that the convex grind is easier to sharpen, but does it need to be sharpened differently? would the outward curve get in the way if trying to sharpening it like a scandi or full flat? or could it more readily get dull and rounded off by shaving or scraping/dragging the edge? the site mentions the scandi grind becoming a convex grind over time from sharpening, so... convex vs. scandi? which do u think is easier to sharpen in the field?

looks like most american knives are high flat grinds, benefits? seems like the secondary bevel, as stated earlier, would eventually run flat and have to be re-ground and shaped.

any benefits to the hollow grind? the site mentions it may be better for skinning but makes no comment either way. and i don't think i've seen a knife with this grind before. anyone else?

thanks again for all your input, information, and help

 

[rifon2]

I'll just answer briefly for now that the convex grind is simple to maintain and sharpen, in the field or otherwise.

 

[SilverFoxKnows]

There are some good steels on your list, but I think you've discounted one of the best without cause. 1095 is an old standby, and it's one of the best.

I think this deserves to be said again. If I could pick only one steel for everything, for the rest of my life, 1095 would be it. From the small pocket knives offered by Boker, Queen & GEC to the camp/field/combat knives offered by Ka-Bar, TOPS & RAT. Even a chopper could be had in 1095 in the form of an Ontario machete or a BK-9. YMMV

Frank

 

[akeegan]

This is the best post I have ever read on 110 steel. I have read Joe Talmadge's post.

I have a 1972 110, 440C, no dot, three-line up. Bought it new (so much for my age.) Just sharpened and refinished by Buck. Beautiful beyond new. But as a retired engineer, I have always enjoyed making fine things better through technology.

My questions to the group:

1. What do you consider the absolute best blade upgrade to my 110? Forget about sentimental value.

2. Should I just forget this nonsense and stick with my perfectly acceptable 440C?

Thanks

 

[knarfeng]

I'd not reblade the '72 110. IIRC there have been internal changes to the 110 design and current blades cannot be fitted into the older knives. (BTW I still carry my late 60's 110 on occasion. So much for my age, as well.)

Instead of modifying your classic, you could buy one of Cabela's Alaskan guide model 110's in S30V. Buck does an excellent job with that alloy. It will hold an edge noticeably better than the 440C. You can also buy an S30V-bladed model online through the Buck custom shop.

Having said that, instead of awakening a three year old necro thread, you could have started a fresh one or posted on the Buck Forum here.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/701-Buck-Knives