Steel snobs and 440a

C

Conn750

Joined
Feb 17, 2001
Messages
16
i'm new(ish) to being a knife enthusiast (sp?), but mi've been doing as much research as possible, both here and all over the internet.

there seems to be a distinct dislike of 440a and 440b steels, with steels like 440c, ats-34 and cm 154 being preffered... why?

i have a SOG seal, and have had nothing but wonderful things to say about it to anyone who asks. to me, this knife holds a fantastic edge, but to others, 440a isn't a quality steel.

just wondering if sog are planning to use any other steels in the future... and if either yes or no, why?

thanks.


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Conn
When your life flashe before your eyes...
makes sure there's somrthing interesting to watch.
 
I'm no steel expert so take my opinions with a grain of salt. However, I encourage you to do a search in the General Discussion's Blade Discussions forum.

About two weeks ago, I posted the thread, "How important is the heat treat?"

In the responses, many people knowledgeable about steels pointed out that arguing about "this steel is better", or "that steel is better" is pointless unless it has a good heat treat. That is, a well heat treated 440C could outperform a mediocre heat treated ATS-34.

Of course ATS-34, CPM 440V, D-2, etc. have more POTENTIAL in rigidity and edge holding over 440a and 440c IF and ONLY IF they are properly heat treated.

In addition, some people feel that it also depends on what you are using it for. Some people feel that 440C complements the hard use, and prying, often subjected on large fixed blades.

A lot has to do with product evolution too. There was a time when 440A was considered "high-end", then came better steels like AUS-8, ATS-34, BG-42 etc. Now, we are into tool steels like D-2, on up.

The last, and certainly most important, factor is individual needs. Some people can get along fine with 440A, and AUS-8.

CONCLUSION: 440A, in itself, is not a bad steel. It's just that there are better to be had if you want to spend the money.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Conn750:
just wondering if sog are planning to use any other steels in the future... and if either yes or no, why?
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I'd like to hear SOG's future steel plans also. But will first point out that SOG is using other steels right now, right? I have an ATS-34 Night Vision, and I think some of fixed blades are coming out in BG-42.

Note that SOG has a reputation for doing a good job of heat treating 440A. I don't think SOG manufactures in the US, so maybe they've found a good Japanese manufacturer who has this down.

Joe
 
Hi Conn,

FTC is correct...heat treating is a critical aspect to the success of any steel. A steel like AUS6 can either be good or bad, depending on its heat treatment. When the proper care is put into AUS6 and AUS8, they can be outstanding performers. More high tech steels have recently been introduced and are widely being used, but do come at increased cost.

If there is anything else I can do for you, please let me know.

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Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
What I'm not sure of is how much of heat-treating is a science, and how much is it an intuitive art, or skill?
 
There is no room for intuition or judgement in heat-treating stainless and other high-alloy air-quenching steels -- they have to be heat-treated in an oven with precisely controlled time and temperature.

Carbon steels and the lower-alloy tool steels can be heat-treated that way too, and always are by the factories, but some hand-makers still heat-treat them by traditional methods which rely on judgement rather than measurement.

A great deal has been posted on heat-treatment in the Shop Talk forum on this website.


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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
 
A quick follow on to something Joe T. mentioned above ...

If you look at the blade of a knife, and see something like "Seki City - Japan" or "Seki, Japan" it means that the blade was made in Seki City, which a city in Japan with a large number of contract cutlery manufacturers. This applies to SOG as well as a number of other companies. In many cases, if the knife is a fixed blade and says this, it means the entire knife is made complete at the contract manufacturer in Japan, in a folder it could be that it is made complete there, or just the blade is made there, and the rest made in the states. Just as an aside, there actually are a number of US companies that use exactly the same contract cutlers in Japan if you ever wondered why it is that the grinding on one company's knives looked so similar to another's. In general, the quality of these companies is quite good, with excellent consistency of product.

I think in the June 2000 issue of Blade magazine (I'm not sure of the date, but it had the new Gerber titanium handle folder on the cover cutting some rope) there was an article about starting your own knife company where using a Japanese cutlery manufacturer was briefly discussed.
 
Conn750:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">there seems to be a distinct dislike of 440a and 440b steels, with steels like 440c, ats-34 and cm 154 being preffered... why?</font>
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Because 440A and 440B are relatively soft, weak and wear down quickly compared to the latter three steels. Yes, the heat treat is important, but the argument "well sog does a good on on their 440A", kind of misses the point, so do people using 440C, if not, you are buying from the wrong people.

For some detail on what these things actually mean in regards to use, see the work Hilton Yam did which included a 440A Sog blade and a bunch of others and the results included significant edge loss on the Sog as well as a bent blade :

http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000323.html

Now it could be that you don't want a knife to be able to do these kinds of things. And they are decently severe, but the fact remains that you can get much better performance out of better steels (blade cut better, edge lasts longer, knife is more durable). However you will have to pay for it.

-Cliff
 
couldn't find that web site... i'm very interested to read it, though...



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Conn
When your life flashes before your eyes...
makes sure there's somrthing interesting to watch.
 
sorry... it's there today, for some reason.



------------------
Conn
When your life flashes before your eyes...
makes sure there's somrthing interesting to watch.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
Conn750:

Yes, the heat treat is important, but the argument "well sog does a good on on their 440A", kind of misses the point, so do people using 440C, if not, you are buying from the wrong people.

-Cliff</font>
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I don't know if I would write it off totally as missing the point because, unfortunately, there just may be the "wrong people" out there heat-treating blades under some well-known brand names.

It was only recently that I, too, generalized this steel being better than that steel, or having faith that each high-profile knife manufacturer does a good job at heat-treating. However, I really began to question all this when other forumites pointed out that not all ATS-34, for example, are equal.

As an example, I asked how would Benchmade's 154CM would fare against Microtech's. One person pointed out that one company heat treats in large batches, and the other does it in small batches. Consequently, there could be a difference in quality.

This is all speculation of course but it gives us something to think about.
 
Very true Full Tang Clan, my fellow Canadian knife knut! But Cliff's point is this:

* Crap Steels (240J2ss!) with awesome heat treats mean crap knives


* Good Steels (440A, AUS-6)with awesome heat treats mean good knives

* Great Steels (154-CM, CMM-3V, etc) with awesome heat treats make awesome blades


I must quality even these simple statements. I am after a knife that will hold a super edge for a long time. So 3V and such would be the perfect choice given these assumptions. But as Ron pointed out, 440A is relatively a less expensive steel so if the user's cost is a factor, the CMP steels may not be an option!! A second point not mentioned is that 440A is a much better corrosion fighter than 3V or 154-CM. The SOG Seal 2000 is made of 440A and benefits well from this!! If I were around the sea a lot and had to choose between a Seal 2000 made of 1095 or 440A, I bet I'd take the 440A.




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"Come What May..."
 
Thanks guys for your comments. And Crayola, you're right on the money (pun intended). In addition to bringing a lower price point, 440A is great at corrosion resistance. What is often missed in some of these knife comparisons is that 440A cannot compete with exotic steels and is not meant to compete. It is designed, rather, to be one of the most outstanding performers for a price that many, many people can afford. Are there more outstanding knives out there? Sure, but I can't afford them. Can you?

Also, for those interested, the test Cliff referred to in his link was performed by a Mad Dog representative and the knives tested included two Mad Dog knives. I am not discrediting or challenging any of the results, only stating that any respected testing should be done by impartial evaluaters (results may or may not differ by impartial testers). As the end of the review challenged, all those tests can be duplicated by anyone, including those not associated with the knives they represent.

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Yes, I understand Cliff's point entirely and I said something similar in my original thread: "Of course ATS-34, CPM 440V, D-2, etc. have more POTENTIAL in rigidity and edge holding over 440a and 440c IF and ONLY IF they are properly heat treated."

That is to say that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL D-2 has better edge holding than ATS-34, 440a, etc.

And, yes, we do generalize that all things are equal and that there is a hierarchy of steels. I must admit that it is probably true most of the time and that is how I purchase knives.
 
It is true that Hilton Yam was at one time a Mad Dog dealer (possibly at the time of the testing), however the results seem sound to me and show the clear difference in performance over a variety of steels as well as geometric considerations for the grip and blade. I don't think he would have lied about the results of what he did. However I do think that the tests chosen do showcase the strengths of McClung's blades and avoid doing work that would exhibit their weakpoints, such as corrosion.

As for 440A making a "crap" knife, well you can make a knife out of anything that will be very sharp and cut very well. I have used them made out of mild steel bar stock. They don't even get heat treated. The problem is that the blades are very weak and it is very easy to deform them so you must be very careful about what you cut with them and how you are doing it.

Better blade steels generally mean that for a given geometry you can treat the blade "rougher" and not see damage. Or for a particular "roughness" level, you can increase the cutting ability as a thinner geometry will be functional.

-Cliff
 
I like SOG's 440A, but what do I know.

My first real knife was a sog tech 2 about 18 years ago. I used it for any and everything. In fact I liked it so much that I bought two(, user, keeper, a very nasty old habit of mine).

Maybe I didn't do the Hilton Yam tests, but I take everything that comes from MD with a very big grain of salt. Cliff, remember the claim made by MD that a soldier used a Tusk as a diving board. Well, a 200 pound man bouncing on a Tusk will put a considerably higher moment on that Tusk than you could have ever done, yet you broke it TWICE!!

So the question on that test might be, how much extra weight was put on the other knives.

In any case, that is my two chuckee cheese credits worth
 
Personally I agree with you and don't pay much attention to what McClung says about his knives for similar reasons as you listed. However I don't put Hilton in the same class as McClung. I would give him the benefit of the doubt on the work described on the blades. I do think however that the tests were chosen to showcase the strengths of McClung's blades and avoid anything that would show the weaknesses. And yes, maybe they did pull a little harder on the non-McClung blades, even if not intentionally.

However the fact remains that 440A is simply not in the same class as the stainless and tool steels used in high end cutlery. Now you can make the argument that it is chosen by SOG with a strong interest in overhead cost (same with Kraton for the handles etc.), but the prices of the blades do not reflect this. Consider them along side a maker like Allen Blade who will do a *custom* blade out of a higher grade blade material with better sheath for very similar prices to many of the SOG like like the Seal 2000 and will undercut the Bowie by about $100.

Consider as well blades like those from Camillus that are much cheaper than SOG's and yet do not use cheaper materials, in fact pretty much the opposite.


-Cliff
 
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that an O-1 blade that is likely to suffer from H embrittlement and definitelly rusting underneath, will outperform a well treated 440A blade. O-1 is not much different than 1095 and 1095 has no where near the yield strength of 440A.

I never really put that kind of lateral stress on my SOG blade, but it is definitelly stiffer than my Recon Tanto which deflected less than your tusk, when you asked me to put my body weight on it.

In any case, there are much better steels out there, that there is no doubt. But 440A is still a decent steel with 70% carbon in it and excellent corrosion resistance as well as ease of sharpening.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cobalt:
But 440A is still a decent steel with 70% carbon in it and excellent corrosion resistance as well as ease of sharpening.</font>
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I think you meant 0.65% to 0.75% carbon in 440A.


 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
Now you can make the argument that [440A] is chosen by SOG with a strong interest in overhead cost (same with Kraton for the handles etc.), but the prices of the blades do not reflect this. Consider them along side a maker like Allen Blade who will do a *custom* blade out of a higher grade blade material with better sheath for very similar prices to many of the SOG like the Seal 2000 and will undercut the Bowie by about $100.
-Cliff</font>
Click to expand...

Indeed. My observation as well.

 
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