Steeling Toothy Edges?

M

MtnHawk1

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May 22, 2019
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I've got good advice here about maintaining (between sharpenings) toothy edges with a few very light strokes on the abrasive grit I finish with (usually ~400). This makes sense and is what I do.

But sometimes I see posts about steeling toothy edges and am curious about what effect this has. Is it beneficial or will it make them less coarse?

As I understand it, using a smooth steel just pushes weakened, deformed metal back to the apex.

I would think that using a fine grit diamond or ceramic rod (often called "steels", but are really not), since it's abrasive, would eventually make the toothy edge a smooth edge.

Am I missing something, and is there really some value to one or both of these methods for maintaining a coarse edge between sharpenings?

Thank you...
 
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Steeling a toothy edge narrows the width of the apex - the mean width across the apex with all the variations gets compressed via plastic deformation.

If you only steel it enough to improve performance you can recondition it several times before the edge is drawn out into a wire and has to be taken back to a stone or grooved steel.

Microbevelling on a fine waterstone or EEF diamond etc will have a similar effect if limited to just a few passes.

Coming off a coarse abrasive you can quickly get an edge to an extremely sharp level with this approach but takes a little practice.
 
I give my Military in S110V a couple light strokes with a smooth steel after honing on a 220 grit DMT DIA-Sharp EXTRA COARSE. Cuts like a miniature chainsaw.
 
I don't have a smooth steel. Is there a reason this won't work similarly with a fine ceramic rod? I don't think my ceramic rod can remove all the tooth from a coarse edge in a few strokes.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Steeling a toothy edge narrows the width of the apex - the mean width across the apex with all the variations gets compressed via plastic deformation.

If you only steel it enough to improve performance you can recondition it several times before the edge is drawn out into a wire and has to be taken back to a stone or grooved steel.

Microbevelling on a fine waterstone or EEF diamond etc will have a similar effect if limited to just a few passes.

Coming off a coarse abrasive you can quickly get an edge to an extremely sharp level with this approach but takes a little practice.
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Yup. I use a similar approach with my scythes when out mowing. I'll use a coarse stone to set an aggressive scratch pattern with the rake running from heel to toe, then give a light pass of a fine stone to help crisp it up without erasing the coarse scratch pattern. After a few honings with a fine stone I'll reset the scratch pattern on the coarse stone again. Just make sure it's a big jump between the two and you can easily preserve the scratch pattern of the coarse stone for several honings.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I'll use a coarse stone to set an aggressive scratch pattern with the rake running from heel to toe, then give a light pass of a fine stone to help crisp it up without erasing the coarse scratch pattern.

Just make sure it's a big jump between the two and you can easily preserve the scratch pattern of the coarse stone for several honings.
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HeavyHanded said:
This right here is key. The finer you make the base scratch pattern the less sense it makes to use this approach.

If you only steel it enough to improve performance you can recondition it several times before the edge is drawn out into a wire and has to be taken back to a stone or grooved steel.
Microbevelling on a fine waterstone or EEF diamond etc will have a similar effect if limited to just a few passes.
Click to expand...

These are great answers and is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you! :)

I wanted to find the best way to maintain my coarse edges (~400 grit) by keeping them coarse and removing as little metal as possible. It seems to me that it's better to remove weak and deformed metal with a high grit abrasive than push it back into place with a smooth steel. I bought a 1200 grit diamond rod and 1500 grit ceramic, then wondered if they would smooth out coarse edges, defeating my purpose. I'm still good with using a coarse/fine DMT Diafold in the wilderness, to save weight and space in my pack.
 
Heh. 400 grit is actually pretty fine, depending on what grit system you're using. I use ANSI 120 grit for my coarse edges and 400 to crisp 'em up.
 
M MtnHawk1
The feasability of this strategy largely depends on the steel in my experience. Relatively low RC and low carbide content steels work best.
Keeping the initial grind at or below 240 grit helps. Once all the irregularities are worked out of the bevel, the steel has nowhere to flow and draws out in a wire.

As you go, the tooth irregularities get worked out through use abrasion and the effect of the smooth steel. For higher RC steels I use a fine grit waterstone for the micro and touchups. For high carbide steels I use a EEF DMT or just strop on diamond compound over very hard strop surface. With high carbide I tend to run the bevel a little finer, DMT XC or C with a EF micro.

The difference between the setup bevel and micro should be a big jump. A few swipes maintain a lot of the tooth, a few more converts it to more of a push cutter. With practice this negates the need for that "just right" finish stone as the edge finish is a hybrid of the two.

I found that a JIS 6k or higher and smooth steeling did very little for the edge quality.
 
A Steel doesn't just push steel back into place. This is a general misconception. Even a smooth Steel and it does this by adhesive wear. The steel from the edge actually sticks to the "Steel" like glue as it passes. Steels when used correctly will create a micro bevel on your edge. As far as keeping toothyness it will by the way it works smooth your edge a bit
 
Link to a write up and micrographs (pg1,5,6,7) of different "smooth" steeling - rods were conditioned on a 2k beartex wheel, makes a very bright finish, not quite mirror.

Some of the photobucket links can be seen by right clicking and "view image", the rest were swapped over to imgur and should be working fine.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling.956235/

Yes, the metal gets compressed/smeared.
 
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FortyTwoBlades said:
Heh. 400 grit is actually pretty fine, depending on what grit system you're using. I use ANSI 120 grit for my coarse edges and 400 to crisp 'em up.
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Yeah, I hear you.

I find myself using coarser finishing grits all the time so I'll probably catch up to you soon! :)

HeavyHanded said:
For high carbide steels I use a EEF DMT... With high carbide I tend to run the bevel a little finer, DMT XC or C with a EF micro.
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This is particularly relevant to my situation.

HeavyHanded said:
The difference between the setup bevel and micro should be a big jump. A few swipes maintain a lot of the tooth, a few more converts it to more of a push cutter. With practice this negates the need for that "just right" finish stone as the edge finish is a hybrid of the two.
Click to expand...

This is especially helpful. My big outdoor knives should have smooth edges for chopping wood, but I prefer coarse edges for just about everything else. This has been a bit of a dilemma when it's the only knife I pack in.

Vicv said:
A Steel doesn't just push steel back into place. This is a general misconception. Even a smooth Steel and it does this by adhesive wear. The steel from the edge actually sticks to the "Steel" like glue as it passes. Steels when used correctly will create a micro bevel on your edge. As far as keeping toothyness it will by the way it works smooth your edge a bit
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I also had the misconception that a steel pushes edge metal back into place, so thank you for the clarification and explanation. Also good to know that a steel will smooth an edge a bit. That's just the kind of info I am looking for.

The bottom line for me is that I want to keep my toothy edges the way I sharpen them, otherwise I wouldn't have made them that way. Since I can't actually see knife edges or what steels, strops, stones, or anything else does to them, and don't want to guess or assume what is happening, I try to avoid doing anything that could modify, damage, or remove the edge I want.

As always, I very much appreciate and respect everyone's knowledge and answers! :)
 
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I use the same grit format as FourtyTwoBlades. Sometimes 100 SiC grit less. I have noticed steeling does refine the edge. This is why most
meat cutters sharpen their knives to around 200 grit & then steeling brings it up. Steeling will push and realign the burr a few times then it won't work and it's time to take it back to a stone. I have noticed backhoning on a stone doesn't push the burr back into alignment so much. It mostly grinds it off. Whereas, backhoning on hardwood realigns the burr. DM
 
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