Talk to me about no cryo heat treat.

[Seedy Lot]

Were the 3V and Cruwear knives you tested the same hardness? As in no cryo vs cryo? Or were you running the cryo blades at a higher rc?

With Cruwear and high temper I was getting 60 Rc. Made hundreds of knives with this heat treat and they are decent knives, in fact most people think they were great knives, but remember with high temper most if not all RA in converted.

My first Cruwear blade with cryo and low temper was 61 Rc. I experienced no micro chipping even though I was using the little thin knife harder than usual like splitting deer sternums and other sloppy bone contact situations when butchering deer. I was a believer in cryo at that point.

I did a test a few years ago on BCUSA comparing steels for stain resistance. All the low temper samples had much less rust than the high temper and because of this alone I think cryo is worth the effort.

 

[Cypress Creek Knives]

With Cruwear and high temper I was getting 60 Rc. Made hundreds of knives with this heat treat and they are decent knives, in fact most people think they were great knives, but remember with high temper most if not all RA in converted.

My first Cruwear blade with cryo and low temper was 61 Rc. I experienced no micro chipping even though I was using the little thin knife harder than usual like splitting deer sternums and other sloppy bone contact situations when butchering deer. I was a believer in cryo at that point.

I did a test a few years ago on BCUSA comparing steels for stain resistance. All the low temper samples had much less rust than the high temper and because of this alone I think cryo is worth the effort.

Thanks Seedy! I've read a lot of your BCUSA writeups on steel testing and have found a lot of value in them.

 

[Joshua Fisher]

You can get a knife with decent HT from Ikea for 15 USD.
You can get a knife with good to very good HT for 30-100 USD from a knife store.
Custom knives with the price point exceeding the above should in my opinion include excellent to superb HT.

Funny you mention the $15 ikea knife as I bought one the last time I went to ikea for fun to test it. Put it through cutting 1/2” rope on a end grain board like I’ve done with my own knives to test/compare edge retention between different steels, the ikea knife with the factory edge made a whopping 70 cuts before it was completely dull and could no longer slice paper, for comparison one of my 8670 knives a steel not known for edge retention made 1400 cuts. I then took the ikea knife and was able to whittle steel off the knife with one of my old shop knives in 8670 at 62rc. A majority of mass produced knives have in my opinion sub par or terrible heat treats but they are still technically useable knives, as makers that’s one part of the equation we can really excel at. Even if cryo only has let’s say a 5-10% boost in overall performance (random number used for argument sake) in my opinion that’s worth it if you have access to cold treatment to be able to get that extra performance.

 

[FredyCro]

Funny you mention the $15 ikea knife as I bought one the last time I went to ikea for fun to test it. Put it through cutting 1/2” rope on a end grain board like I’ve done with my own knives to test/compare edge retention between different steels, the ikea knife with the factory edge made a whopping 70 cuts before it was completely dull and could no longer slice paper, for comparison one of my 8670 knives a steel not known for edge retention made 1400 cuts. I then took the ikea knife and was able to whittle steel off the knife with one of my old shop knives in 8670 at 62rc. A majority of mass produced knives have in my opinion sub par or terrible heat treats but they are still technically useable knives, as makers that’s one part of the equation we can really excel at. Even if cryo only has let’s say a 5-10% boost in overall performance (random number used for argument sake) in my opinion that’s worth it if you have access to cold treatment to be able to get that extra performance.

They have different budget lines and also had many different lines through the years, the ones I am referring to are full tang and take a keen, quite wear resistant edge. The petty costed about 15 euro and a small chef around 30 Euro about 15 years ago. Not great but I kept them sharp with stones and used them for years before I got into high end knifes and knife making. I tested them years later at 58-59 HRC and still have them, although they do not get used much anymore.

Edit: sorry for off topic.

 

[Way-Barney]

just follow the free advise of the guys spending lots of time/money to share
with your lazy butt the secrets they found..

Almost every research paper or book on metallurgy or knife metallurgy, even Verhoeven and Thomas, are packed full of references to articles that were found through the willingness, of those referenced individuals or organizations, to share the secrets of what they found to other "lazy butts". Who, quite obviously, would have rather not have researched every singular idiosyncrasy of the published topic.
And a special thanks to Alexander Fleming for sharing with a world, choc full of lazy butts, the secrets he found from looking at a lump of phlegm spat into a petri dish.

 

[Alex Topfer]

Guys that say it is "Good Enough" why are you making knives ?? if you are willing to compromise on the quality of knife you are going to build....

Perfection is impossible, all work is "good enough". It's just that "enough" varies depending on the application.
Why don't you cryo treat in liquid hydrogen, wouldn't that be better?
At some point you have to stop chasing precision and accept a process that can achieve your design goals

Remember, only god can make something perfect, so if you make a perfect knife you had better be prepared to fight god with it

 

[Lorien]

Perfection is impossible, all work is "good enough". It's just that "enough" varies depending on the application.
Why don't you cryo treat in liquid hydrogen, wouldn't that be better?
At some point you have to stop chasing precision and accept a process that can achieve your design goals

I like this.

 

[DevinT]

Perfection is impossible, all work is "good enough". It's just that "enough" varies depending on the application.
Why don't you cryo treat in liquid hydrogen, wouldn't that be better?
At some point you have to stop chasing precision and accept a process that can achieve your design goals

Remember, only god can make something perfect, so if you make a perfect knife you had better be prepared to fight god with it

The testing with liquid helium showed no improvement over liquid nitrogen.

Hoss

 

[DeadboxHero]

Perfection is impossible, all work is "good enough". It's just that "enough" varies depending on the application.
Why don't you cryo treat in liquid hydrogen, wouldn't that be better?
At some point you have to stop chasing precision and accept a process that can achieve your design goals

Remember, only god can make something perfect, so if you make a perfect knife you had better be prepared to fight god with it

Sounds like the explanation for using 1880f and 500f for everything.

 

[Alex Topfer]

Sounds like the explanation for using 1880f and 500f for everything.

Never, imperial measurements are nowhere near good enough

 

[DeadboxHero]

Never, imperial measurements are nowhere near good enough

 

[Way-Barney]

Perfection is impossible, all work is "good enough". It's just that "enough" varies depending on the application.
Why don't you cryo treat in liquid hydrogen, wouldn't that be better?
At some point you have to stop chasing precision and accept a process that can achieve your design goals

Remember, only god can make something perfect, so if you make a perfect knife you had better be prepared to fight god with it

You make some interesting points Alex, I would venture to suggest that most, if not all, knifemakers are starting out making a knife where the material selected at the outset is far from perfect.
If we consider the steel impurities, sulphur and phosphorus, the steel manufacturing companies themselves have all ready decided that it is too expensive to produce "perfect steel" and that the wide tolerances for those impurities are "good enough".

 

[Pinoy Knife]

Almost every research paper or book on metallurgy or knife metallurgy, even Verhoeven and Thomas, are packed full of references to articles that were found through the willingness, of those referenced individuals or organizations, to share the secrets of what they found to other "lazy butts". Who, quite obviously, would have rather not have researched every singular idiosyncrasy of the published topic.
And a special thanks to Alexander Fleming for sharing with a world, choc full of lazy butts, the secrets he found from looking at a lump of phlegm spat into a petri dish.

maybe they are using each others research, in a collective way instead of trying to split hairs...and kindly combining them in one location to use as reference..
giving the original researcher the credit they deserve....putting all the info in one spot to make it easy for the lazy butts!!!

 

[Pinoy Knife]

Perfection is impossible, all work is "good enough". It's just that "enough" varies depending on the application.
Why don't you cryo treat in liquid hydrogen, wouldn't that be better?
At some point you have to stop chasing precision and accept a process that can achieve your design goals

Remember, only god can make something perfect, so if you make a perfect knife you had better be prepared to fight god with it

im simply not trying to argue with people ... but the good enough comment applies to both knife building and shooting..
if you can simply hit whatever the target is and stop trying that "For you " is good enough!!!! but if you truly want to become better you increase the distance until you still hit the target..
then you use a smaller target and repeat.. again until you hit it every time..
his is pushing yourself to be the best maker/shooter you can become.... when your success is 90% you are getting somewhere and have accomplished much... that deserved kudos/attaboy
no one expects a beginner to get/be there quickly ......

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Focus on continual improvement. Perfection is a red herring.

Chuck

 

[navman]

But...my mom always told me I was perfection...?

 

[Lorien]

for me, 'good enough' is a constantly moving target.

 

[Alex Topfer]

You make some interesting points Alex, I would venture to suggest that most, if not all, knifemakers are starting out making a knife where the material selected at the outset is far from perfect.
If we consider the steel impurities, sulphur and phosphorus, the steel manufacturing companies themselves have all ready decided that it is too expensive to produce "perfect steel" and that the wide tolerances for those impurities are "good enough".

Modern steel is actually very good, but getting the right steel for a design and process is very important too. But yeah, all of it is produced to a standard with a composition that varies within that standard by batch. Does it make a noticeable difference? But just cause you can't detect a difference doesn't mean there isn't a difference (designing tests to measure effects is a major pain in the arse. Knives are a simple case)

To build on Pinoy's shooting analogy; at some point you have to stop looking for better bullets, tuning your optics, and actually take a shot. At some point you have to say your materials and equipment are good enough and get out to make a knife. There are skills you won't practice unless you actually do it.
Maybe your next will be better, but it's always only going to be good enough.
Speaking of that i have a knife handle i should go assemble

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I'll give a rough quote from Henry McEvoy, the famous knife thrower:
"When I started throwing, the first 100 throws mostly bounced off the target. The next 500 were sticking some of the time. By 10,000 throws I stuck the point most of the time. By 100,000 throws I was hitting the bulls eye about 95% of the time. By 1,000,000 throws, I was pretty much hitting 99%. Even then, i missed a few, and had room for improvement."

 

[Way-Barney]

interesting pdf (to some)