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Tanto vs Spearpoint
- Thread starter jdj211
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The poor man probably died a couple centuries before the first Crusade, so it's hard to tell.
No, but really, that shape seems to be common in ancient japanese swords (I keep seeing them referred to as 'Joko-to' or 'Chokuto', I don't know what the correct term is...) before 900 AD or so, according to the mighty google. This is long, long before 'katanas' were invented.
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Most of our special forces units are outfitted with the Recon 1, and swear by it. I always prefer listening to those who've actually used a tool rather than ones who like to speak about 200 BC tech just because it is politically correct, and the ultimate in reverse tacticool. Ask a pro then make up your own mind. One thing I can tell you is that tip-up designs are not as efficient in stabbing unless you've practiced and mastered the technique. Then again, the uppercut is the most difficult strike to defend against so ymmv.
In terms of which type will penetrate, simply draw an outline around the two profiles superimposed on each other. Which is the narrower one? Likely the better penetration.
Try it with empty pop cans, you can get a seat of the palm feel for which one might be easier. Some designs just slip right in with little pressure, others crush the can. I have no doubt you could find a good and bad one in each type of blade style. The latest variation of the American Tanto - which is largely coming out of China, go figure - uses a centered point, almost mirrored angle at the top and sharpened front edge, and possibly even a recurve. The angles look very much like a drop point with a small edge transistion.
Then there are enhancements one blade may have over another - like the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp having a sharpened tip, vs a Becker Campanion being darned blunt. Very similar profile, entirely different results. Looking at the ESEE series, I'd grind the top of the point first thing, it would significantly improve penetration without taking on the tacticool look.
Don't guess, try them out on pop cans. It is at least one consistent method and gets you results. It's better than guessing, and sure beats stabbing coconuts and breaking off a tip.
Try it with empty pop cans, you can get a seat of the palm feel for which one might be easier. Some designs just slip right in with little pressure, others crush the can. I have no doubt you could find a good and bad one in each type of blade style. The latest variation of the American Tanto - which is largely coming out of China, go figure - uses a centered point, almost mirrored angle at the top and sharpened front edge, and possibly even a recurve. The angles look very much like a drop point with a small edge transistion.
Then there are enhancements one blade may have over another - like the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp having a sharpened tip, vs a Becker Campanion being darned blunt. Very similar profile, entirely different results. Looking at the ESEE series, I'd grind the top of the point first thing, it would significantly improve penetration without taking on the tacticool look.
Don't guess, try them out on pop cans. It is at least one consistent method and gets you results. It's better than guessing, and sure beats stabbing coconuts and breaking off a tip.
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I'm definitely not a CS basher... love Demko's Tri-Ad lock. But really?
I'm assuming you meant an upswept tip... at first I was thrown off thinking you were comparing tip-up to tip-down folder carry related to blade profile penetration, but I get it now.
IMHO, if we're talking employing a blade towards something as soft as, oh say... flesh, I have a hard time believing that making contact with any positive pressure from a sharp edge or tip, regardless of being an upswept tip (to a degree, of course), would have a problem with penetration.
That's not even considering addition of extra force from "hitting" or slicing or stabbing from any amount of distance.
I agree that practicing and mastering familiarity with the blade will educate the hands.
This should develop one's ablility to adapt in movement and recognition rather than strict delivery channels just because the tip aims that direction
Sorry, I know this thread is on design aspects, not so much application through training... but I just had to throw that out there.
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I hate to be that guy and I mean no disrespect, but I've been in the Army for over 10 years now and have worked almost exclusively with the SF community as a PSYOP soldier and I can count on one hand how many operators have used anything by CS. And this is not to say I don't like CS products. I have an American Lawman and a Large Voyager... but to say "most of our special forces units are outfitted with the Recon 1" is out right false. Benchmade and Spyderco dominate this niche market from what I've seen. Sorry, just had to say something.
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I think you've covered every single base:
1. Make obviously false statements about the military ("Most speshull forcuz use Cold Steel Recon 1s and swear by them for actual hardcore pro use!"
)2. Spout nonsensical attacks at other members ("Yall aint actually used a tool, yalls just talking about 200BC political correct reverse tacticoolity!"
)3. Use terms that you don't understand (what exactly do you think 'tip-up' means, anyway?
)4. Give vague "martial arts" advice that's about as useful as nipples on a plate carrier ("You need to have practiced and mastered the technique of stabbing!" :barf
5. Claim to be giving out professional advice ("Ask a pro then make up your mind!"...thanks, tips, you really helped answer the question.)
6. Totally ignore the thread topic (So, uh...what does any of that crap have to do with the penetrating capabilities of Tantos and Spearpoints, respectively?)
Yep. Perfect score.
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I think you've covered every single base:
1. Make obviously false statements about the military ("Most speshull forcuz use Cold Steel Recon 1s and swear by them for actual hardcore pro use!"
2. Spout nonsensical attacks at other members ("Yall aint actually used a tool, yalls just talking about 200BC political correct reverse tacticoolity!"
3. Use terms that you don't understand (what exactly do you think 'tip-up' means, anyway?
4. Give vague "martial arts" advice that's about as useful as nipples on a plate carrier ("You need to have practiced and mastered the technique of stabbing!" :barf
5. Claim to be giving out professional advice ("Ask a pro then make up your mind!"...thanks, tips, you really helped answer the question.)
6. Totally ignore the thread topic (So, uh...what does any of that crap have to do with the penetrating capabilities of Tantos and Spearpoints, respectively?)
Yep. Perfect score.
Haha you summed up my own thoughts!
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Well I tried to be polite but Dorito Monk stole the show. But, well played, sir. Beers on me.
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If only I had a spare $500 for a second Strider... haha.
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For perspective, my Strider will be filling the role of my "field knife." Meaning it will be with me on hikes, camping trips, for yard work, etc. There are a lot of coyotes and bears near my cabin, so it would also be my last line of defense if the situation arose. I just don't want a knife to fail in a situation where my life depended on it. I'm pretty sure I can't go wrong with a Strider either way.
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Have any pictures of tantos?
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Are you suggesting that "our special forces" have more practical experience with fighting blades than the collective experience of those who carried them into battle before firearms? Sorta "pros," yes?
The production of weapons for centuries IS testimony as to the practicality of their design, even if they were not used to stab car hoods but "merely" armor.
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You mentioned that "The tanto we're thinking of was invented by Bob Loveless" - well, I'm pretty sure that's not the case, because tantos in general (as well as knives with what we think of as 'tanto points') had been invented way, way before him.
I was wondering what his contribution actually was, though - did he popularize the angular 'tanto point', or help re-introduce tanto style knives to the world or something? Did he introduce something else to the 'tanto'?
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I wouldn't want my SnG as a last resort, a big sharp stick would be superior. The history of warfare is basically the adaptation of technology to increase stand off - or extend reach - both of which simply mean having enough distance to strike an enemy and they can't strike back.
SF understand that very well and use it as much as possible. Which brings the discussion full circle - Tanto vs Spearpoint? Not much reason to bother, the answer is neither. Spirepoint will always trump.
Knives are just sharp pieces of steel, making too much of them is what creates a problem.
SF understand that very well and use it as much as possible. Which brings the discussion full circle - Tanto vs Spearpoint? Not much reason to bother, the answer is neither. Spirepoint will always trump.
Knives are just sharp pieces of steel, making too much of them is what creates a problem.
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Get ready, Here comes a lengthy response..
Too many are put off to tanto style tips in general.
If you're going to assess an "American-tanto" tips worth as a piercing implement, then what it really comes down to is the shape and style of your particular blade. Does it actually carry any Asian influence at all or is it an overly-tactical looking rectangle?
Here is a screenshot of a Pre-80's Japanese sword:
I know that it's hard to see with bad pics but look closely and you'll see that right about where the all that belly of the curvy tip starts to straighten out, there is an angle line running straight upwards toward the spine of the sword 'till it meets the main thickness of the blade that carries along almost the entirety of the sword. Similarly, there is another one of these lines that runs from the very tip till about 1/4 way up that belly in the tip.
So there are 2 main angles very close to the tip that rapidly rise to meet the main thickness of the blade. This is the Asian sword styling that allows for a very thick sturdy tip so that it may be used for stabbing without worry of breaking at the tip, It's almost an entirely solid bar of steel.
Here are some tip pics of my Kabar 1245 tanto:
You'll see that the Kabar follows the exact same blade angles that rush rapidly towards the main thickness of the blade, giving it an extremely sturdy tip with 4 sharp angles (2 on each side) that make it about as thick and strong as nail. It does this with an American tanto flare, in having two main edges, but is severely less "obtuse" than other designs out there and it carries a heavy Asian influence. If you were to grind and round out a bit where the two edges meet, then it would share nearly Identical blade geometry with the sword pictured in this movie. And it's narrow blade shape lends to a good performance in piercing.
IMO, this makes a good tanto.
If you were to compare a spear point to this tanto, you should see equally descent penetration with the advantage the Kabar tanto has a stronger more rugged tip.
While choosing something like this:
Would most likely be unjustifiable..
All that said, it comes down to which particular "tanto" style blade you compare it to. Is it something that carries an actual Asian influence or is it bulky American tactical hype?
*Also*, it's worth noting that an "American" tanto and Japanese tanto:
Should never be compared.
I see there's been some argument over the origin of the "tanto" design and I don't think that the answer is as black and white as anyone would like to think that it is.
A Japanese tanto is not purely a weapon carried by samurai for piercing armor, this is not technically true..
The armor piercers were a specific type of tanto known as yorio toshi.
There are many different classical Japanese tanto designs, even traditional tanto's with no tip at all.
Tanto is not a particular design; They were more like the "tactical knives" of their day, a short sword type knife, carried by samurai for much same reasons as modern tactical knives are carried today.
The life of a samurai was dictated, down to every last move, by rules and tradition and as the advent of the formal pairing of Katana and Wakazashi came to take place (more as a status symbol than anything), the tanto type knives faded into obscurity.
IMO, the modern resurgence of these namesake blades in the Americanized form culminated from a combination in philosophy of the armor piercing duty of the Yorio Toshi, and the addition of a very strong Japanese sword type tip to make such a thing possible.
Cold steel and the likes didn't truly invent anything, much like the Gracie family didn't invent any type of jujitsu. It's just a new school of thought on the same old techniques..
Too many are put off to tanto style tips in general.
If you're going to assess an "American-tanto" tips worth as a piercing implement, then what it really comes down to is the shape and style of your particular blade. Does it actually carry any Asian influence at all or is it an overly-tactical looking rectangle?
Here is a screenshot of a Pre-80's Japanese sword:
I know that it's hard to see with bad pics but look closely and you'll see that right about where the all that belly of the curvy tip starts to straighten out, there is an angle line running straight upwards toward the spine of the sword 'till it meets the main thickness of the blade that carries along almost the entirety of the sword. Similarly, there is another one of these lines that runs from the very tip till about 1/4 way up that belly in the tip.
So there are 2 main angles very close to the tip that rapidly rise to meet the main thickness of the blade. This is the Asian sword styling that allows for a very thick sturdy tip so that it may be used for stabbing without worry of breaking at the tip, It's almost an entirely solid bar of steel.
Here are some tip pics of my Kabar 1245 tanto:
You'll see that the Kabar follows the exact same blade angles that rush rapidly towards the main thickness of the blade, giving it an extremely sturdy tip with 4 sharp angles (2 on each side) that make it about as thick and strong as nail. It does this with an American tanto flare, in having two main edges, but is severely less "obtuse" than other designs out there and it carries a heavy Asian influence. If you were to grind and round out a bit where the two edges meet, then it would share nearly Identical blade geometry with the sword pictured in this movie. And it's narrow blade shape lends to a good performance in piercing.
IMO, this makes a good tanto.
If you were to compare a spear point to this tanto, you should see equally descent penetration with the advantage the Kabar tanto has a stronger more rugged tip.
While choosing something like this:
Would most likely be unjustifiable..
All that said, it comes down to which particular "tanto" style blade you compare it to. Is it something that carries an actual Asian influence or is it bulky American tactical hype?
*Also*, it's worth noting that an "American" tanto and Japanese tanto:
Should never be compared.
I see there's been some argument over the origin of the "tanto" design and I don't think that the answer is as black and white as anyone would like to think that it is.
A Japanese tanto is not purely a weapon carried by samurai for piercing armor, this is not technically true..
The armor piercers were a specific type of tanto known as yorio toshi.
There are many different classical Japanese tanto designs, even traditional tanto's with no tip at all.
Tanto is not a particular design; They were more like the "tactical knives" of their day, a short sword type knife, carried by samurai for much same reasons as modern tactical knives are carried today.
The life of a samurai was dictated, down to every last move, by rules and tradition and as the advent of the formal pairing of Katana and Wakazashi came to take place (more as a status symbol than anything), the tanto type knives faded into obscurity.
IMO, the modern resurgence of these namesake blades in the Americanized form culminated from a combination in philosophy of the armor piercing duty of the Yorio Toshi, and the addition of a very strong Japanese sword type tip to make such a thing possible.
Cold steel and the likes didn't truly invent anything, much like the Gracie family didn't invent any type of jujitsu. It's just a new school of thought on the same old techniques..
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Hahaha right?
Tell that to Miyamoto Musashi
Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to throw down your thoughts coupled with visuals, man :thumbup: