temperline questions...............

S

Scott Fulford

Joined
Feb 16, 2002
Messages
91
Guys,here`s my latest project.
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I`ve had an itch to make a nice tanto with a wavy temperline and I think it turned out quite nicely,the problem is I spent about 5 hours going back and forth between the ferric chloride and hand-sanding before I got the hamon to look really nice.I finally triumped by etching it in a relatively strong solution of F.C. to water probably 1 part etchant to 2 parts water after buffing and then hand polishing with 600 then 1000 grit wet dry.
I first tried to hand sand from 320 down to 1000 and then lightly etch in a weak solution,the line looked really good but the etchant darkened the steel to where it didnt shine at all,I tried going back to 600 then 1000 and the line was very hard to see.
What method do you use?Life is too short to spend 5 hours sanding a blade,there`s got to be a better way.
Thanks,
Scott
 
Thats about the normal amount of time to be hand sanding a blade, maybe even alittle less. On the etch for the hamon alot depends on the steel itself. A more simple steel the hamon will show better than 5160. Most the 10 series will show a hamon quite well. Once the blade is finished sanded just two or three quick etches with light sanding inbetween should make it pop out. Also another thing that does help is quenching the blade in warm water instead of oil but then your taking a chance of cracking the blade. Its one of those things that you get some ideas but alot is up to you and don't expect things to turn out the first time you try them. I know there's other things that are a heck of alot more interesting than hand rubbing a blade....Ray
 
Bob Engnath used to guesstimate that it takes about an hour an inch of blade length to go from 220 to finish polish and etch by hand. I find it takes me a little longer as I do multiple etches to bring out the hamon or temper line.

hamon_F.jpg


Not my blade but my polish and hardware and mounting in the picture. Hand polishing is tedious and time consuming but is worth the effort if a cool temperline is what you are after. I would suggest using a milder acid for etching as I have had little luck with ferric chloride. I prefer hot vinegar with a couple of drops of dish soap in it to wet the blade and prevent the etch solution from balling up on the surface.


Brian
 
Thanks guys,and Brian,that is a wonderful blade,my jaw dropped when the pic came up.Very nice.
Here`s another pic of the tanto with it`s sisters,I wanted to do a 3 piece set of tanto`s,a "traditional" style with visible hamon and a small sheath knife with a neck knife for an appetizer,whatcha think?
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Oh,the sheath for the big tanto will be leather.
Scott
 
What are you using as your clay coating, and how thick are you making it to get a hamon like that? Are you quenching in water or oil? :D
 
Terry,the steel is 1095,I used red devil furnace cement as a substitute for clay,the cement is applied about 1/8" thick at the top and sides going about 1/4 of the way down the side of the blade,make little ribs or waves of cement on the sides to give the temperline a bit of wavyness,I quenched the knife in 140 degree veggie oil.
I dont have a pic of the cement on this blade but here`s a previous blade I made using the same method and the resultant hamon
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Here`s the blade with the cement applied....
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and heres the blade after the quench and a little clean up.Notice how the hamon roughly follows where the ribs were,if the ribs were farther apart the hamon would have had higher peaks,if they were closer together the hamon would have been almost straigt.
Scott
 
Does the red devil furnace cement expand when you heat it up or does it dry and stay that thickness when you heat it. I am just wondering, i tried some furnace cement from lowes on a blade i was making from 1084 steel. I thought it had dried but when i heated it the cement expanded. I quenched in water and did get a hamon, but i wasnt sure if the cement was supposed to expand. :rolleyes:
 
Y`know I`ve never tried the red devil to see if it would expand when forced to dry,I also had some that puffed up if you put it in the oven before it dried,I didnt like that because I though if it puffed up and got porous,it might absorb some of the quenchant and negate the insulating properties it had.I always let the cement dry completely (a day or two) before the hardening process begins.
 
Brian, that is BREATH-TAKING!!!!

Who's blade work is it? Your finish work on that piece is simply magnificent, I love it!

I know Don Fogg and some others have written about using ferric swabbed on the blade to make the hamon "pop" but I haven't had much luck with it either. What has worked best for me is vinegar also. It is very very very slow...but the end result I'm getting is worth it (IMHO)

I know what I'm doing isn't traditional, but I feel it's attractive when done.

Maybe you could give us some insight on your polishing process for that piece?

Thanks,
Nick

*edited to add* Thanks Guy, I would have paid you good money to see that pic!!! :)
 
I first used some stuff that expanded. I bought it at Ace. Was simply called refractory cement. It expanded like dough (wet or dry) and became a real pain in the ass to predict and control.

These days its Satanite. Works beautifully and with no size change. Would recommend it. You can get it from K&G.
 
Great thread, you guys are giving me lots of fantastic ideas -- but I have too many ideas already!!!

Aaarrrghhhhh....!!! Where am I gonna get more time?! ... I know, I'll quit my job and get a divorce and stay in my shop till the Sheriff comes and tosses me on the bank's behalf...

Well, no, I'm not that far gone.

Yet. :D But crimeny, this stuff is awesome!

Dave
 
Here we go, it's so much nicer to have the picture come up instead of a link you have to click on. Here is a picture I took of Don Fogg applying Satanite to a small knife he forged at a demo:

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Actually that is not too bad for a hand polish time. I usually go down to 1000 then etch with a 1 to 2 mixture of Fecl and H2O, then rub again with 1000 or 1200. I repeat these steps until I am satisfied with the way it looks. However if you want something not quite traditional but not bad looking. Take the blade to a 600 grit then etch the whole blade with straight ferric. It will get a nice frosty gray look and the temperline jumps right out. Then a quick light rub with 800 grit. More of a tactical look. I use the 10 series steels and get better temperlines with 1050 or 1060. I also quench in water at 160 degrees using home depot fireplace mortar, it does puff up and you do not seem to get as active a line as you do with satanite. I will post a picture of the frosted look as soon as I get the digital camera back working.
 
Like Robert already said, Nick, that waki is a sanmai Damascus blade in 1086 by Howard Clark. The were things going on in the hamon that were unreal and very beautiful. Howard's heat treat is exacting and I was privilege that he allowed me to have this blade for a while to play with. Note the utsuri, or little black reflections that look like liquid just above the temperline.

sanmaiutsuri_F.jpg


The polishing sequence on this blade was to move through 220 grit foundation polish to about 1000 grit on the areas below the ridgeline and go to 2000 grit on everything above. I use a ceramic block and fold paper to fit over it making a stone that has an easily removable surface. I use Windex for lubricant. For an etch I always use hot vinegar and add a few drops of dish soap to break the surface tension....this makes the solution wet the entire surface and not ball up. I clamp the blade horizontal to the floor and then apply the boiling hot solution with cotton swabs to the hamon area and keep the blade warm with a small butane torch. When it has etched enough I remove the black oxide with Flitz, Noxon, Pikal, or Simichrome polish and then re etch as many as 20 times to get the depth of activity I like.

Ferric chloride has never worked well for me for this application as it is too harsh.

Good luck to all,

Brian
 
On the picture above of Howard Clarks blade i see a line that looks like the metal has changed characteristics, which is what i am expecting a hamon to be, but then above that is the whitish areas, which i thought was the tranistion line, but i thought that would follow and be just above the first line. so now i am a bit confused as to what i am really looking at, could you elaberate some on the different portions of the lines and explain what they are? :confused:
 
As Brian said, the blade is a laminate construction. When you look near the edge you will notice a visible differentiation between the core steel and the side steel (the sides obviously do not go all the way to the very edge). You will see a line such as this on many laminate kitchen knives as well, because a different material is used for the core than is for the sides and as a result will be visibly different.

"Hamon" itself is actually a tricky word, but to be simple we'll use it to refer to the transition zone between soft body (generally pearlite) and hard edge (martensite). This will be the line "higher up" on the blade, and on this particular blade is quite thick and bright, almost glowing. Brian REALLY brought that sucker out, but it looks quite attractive.

As a side note however, Japanese-style blades often have much more to look at than just the hamon...in such blades by Howard Clark and others, you will see a significant amount of other activities as these makers really try to push the envelope with heat treating...being very precise and in-control of their work. It makes for interesting stuff that is often fun to see and try to explain in "traditional" terms.
 
Yeah, they really aren't temper lines. They are, properly, *hardening* lines ' cause in this case what we are seeing are the different cooling rates of the steel. Robert is correct, the lowest thin, bright white line is actually the core steel (which is 1086M) showing through the outer layer of 1000 layer pattern welded steel where the blade tapers. There is actually a very fine and distinct pattern in the outer Damascus layers that I could not photograph. The hardening characteristics of the various layers and the center core steel and the exacting way that Howard applies the clay are what have produced all of these effects.

The black shadows are as a result of clay placement and exact temperature of the steel and the quench medium (water) as is the shape of the hamon itself. Howard is obviously an expert at this kind of manipulation but I'm not sure that he can produce the effect at will as there are always unknown and uncontrollable variables in the hardening process. Here is a picture of a monosteel blade (1086M) that actually started life as a naginata blade but cracked in the quench. It came to me as a remnant to be turned into a tanto and the hamon here is *really* something to ponder.

tantohamon_F.jpg


There are no layers of steel to change the hardening characteristics in this blade. It was all done with clay and temperature and experience. All of this activity was caused by different cooling rates caused by the application of clay in a specific manner. I have played with differential hardening and created some interesting stuff but if any of us guys get good enough to do this at will I will be severely impressed. The whole blade is like this and the turn of the hamon over the tip of the blade (kissaki) just explodes into cool spots of hard and soft. You could look at this blade for an hour in the right light and see all kinds of stuff that just popped out at you.

Differential hardening can make for some very interesting and beautiful stuff.

Brian
 
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