Testing for J.S. or M.S.? Any questions?

Michael Rader

Michael Rader

Joined
Apr 17, 2009
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Any of you guys testing this year for the ABS J.S. or M.S. rank?
Want any advice on fit-n-finish?
I don't spend much time on the forums, but quite a few of the guys here helped me a bunch in the past and I feel like giving back with one caveat: you might not like what I have to say. Ha ha.
 
How about explaining how you finish your handles.
Not very many knife makers come close.
 
I'm still a while from testing, but would very much appreciate any advice you'd be willing to give. I'm amazed at the knives you make. You could hurt my feelings all day long and I think I may well ask for more the next week just for the opportunity to get better.

Jeremy
 
My goal is to be ready to test for JS in Atlanta in 2015. So any nugget of advise you offer up will be greatly appreciated. Like has been mentioned how you finish your handles. Especially the ones you have more than one material on.
 
Ok, so, you don't actually have to finish your handle to the grade that I do to pass your tests, but I'll share a few tips on that.
I was taught wood finishing by an ol' timer that worked for Benelli a long time ago and one of the most important things he stressed about finishing gunstocks was filling the grain. He really liked Teak Oil. I think we used SeaFin.

So, sand your handle down to 320-400 grit or so, saturate the handle with oil and let sit for about ten minutes while just keeping it wet so as much oil can soak in as possible. Then we would wet-sand so a slurry of sawdust fills the grains and pores. Kinda massage it in with your fingers too when it gets thicker. Let sit for 5 days or so in a warm room until that stuff is rock-hard. Sand back down to the wood again and do it again. Then sand it down to the wood yet again and this time, wipe off the slurry after wet-sanding and with a clean paper towel wipe on a clean coating of oil. Let dry. Repeat.

At this point the grain and pores are filled and you are building a very thin layer of hard, clean oil finish in and on the wood. Repeat the wet-sanding with 600, 800, 1200 grit papers. Apply clean oil everytime afterwards. Let dry completely. Buy some super fine steel-wool from Klingspore or Rockler (not Lowe's or Home Depot - their #0000 isn't the same.) Scrub the finish to a nice satin sheen. You can also rub-out the finish with Pumice then Rottenstone powders too.

So, that is how we did it and many, many of my sword handles/scabbards and knife handles were done this way. I'd recommend using Pro-Custom gunstock oil from Brownell's instead of Teak or Tru-Oil. And, yes, do this on stabilized woods too especially if you can see open grains like Koa, etc... You might want to use a buffer on the finish too, but if those grains/pores aren't filled, it won't look quite as nice as it can.

There are some other, quicker ways to fill the grain/pores too, but, you know - try this for a while...
Builds character.
 
I'm not a bladesmith, nor much of a maker to be honest. One thing I've always been baffled at it the intangibles, too much belly, to short of a choil, those kind of aspects. How does a perspective tester know what the judges will consider "too much" or "not enough" of a feature and how does this affect judging the piece. I've seen makers post a knife that looks beautiful for my use/experience, but hear established makers/collectors suggest changes- I guess I'm confused how much aesthetics play vs actual usability of the knives. As the test knives aren't used at all (other than one knife, I would like to see some cutting with each of the 5 "display" pieces, even a single slice of paper), does aesthetics matter more than use ability? How does a maker reach a meeting point between their own designs and what judges are looking for- from a design perspective. Not concerning fit and finish, if I make any sense at all. (Sorry for what is probably a convoluted post, I'll try and clean it up when in a better location to think).
 
Michael Rader said:
Ok, so, you don't actually have to finish your handle to the grade that I do to pass your tests, but I'll share a few tips on that.
I was taught wood finishing by an ol' timer that worked for Benelli a long time ago and one of the most important things he stressed about finishing gunstocks was filling the grain. He really liked Teak Oil. I think we used SeaFin.

So, sand your handle down to 320-400 grit or so, saturate the handle with oil and let sit for about ten minutes while just keeping it wet so as much oil can soak in as possible. Then we would wet-sand so a slurry of sawdust fills the grains and pores. Kinda massage it in with your fingers too when it gets thicker. Let sit for 5 days or so in a warm room until that stuff is rock-hard. Sand back down to the wood again and do it again. Then sand it down to the wood yet again and this time, wipe off the slurry after wet-sanding and with a clean paper towel wipe on a clean coating of oil. Let dry. Repeat.

At this point the grain and pores are filled and you are building a very thin layer of hard, clean oil finish in and on the wood. Repeat the wet-sanding with 600, 800, 1200 grit papers. Apply clean oil everytime afterwards. Let dry completely. Buy some super fine steel-wool from Klingspore or Rockler (not Lowe's or Home Depot - their #0000 isn't the same.) Scrub the finish to a nice satin sheen. You can also rub-out the finish with Pumice then Rottenstone powders too.

So, that is how we did it and many, many of my sword handles/scabbards and knife handles were done this way. I'd recommend using Pro-Custom gunstock oil from Brownell's instead of Teak or Tru-Oil. And, yes, do this on stabilized woods too especially if you can see open grains like Koa, etc... You might want to use a buffer on the finish too, but if those grains/pores aren't filled, it won't look quite as nice as it can.

There are some other, quicker ways to fill the grain/pores too, but, you know - try this for a while...
Builds character.
Click to expand...

When you are doing this do you mask of metal hardware such as the guard or bolsters or just sand them too? My only experience is with Tru Oil and it puts a thick film on the guard that I had to go back and refinish the guard to remove.

Thanks
 
I understand what you're saying. It's tough because you know you are going to walk into a room with several (I had seven judging my M.S. test) and you know that you are not going to fool a single one of them. First, you kind of have to understand the modern style of knife you are making and also that there are many interpretations of knives that are acceptable and many that are not. So, there is some research to do before you even start your knives. Regarding some of the "intangibles," well, you just do your best.

I can't really speak on the performance of the five knives taken into the room for judging. Very controversial subject as you know from many of the posts here over the many years. And I don't know what the mastersmiths talk about regarding that behind the closed door. You just make the best knives you can - in every way possible - and trust your gut. Just know that testing for J.S. and even for M.S. is a reasonable process and the challenge, pass/fail, will make you a better knifemaker in the end.

Shaw. Yeah, all the oils do cause problems. Masking with the blue painters tape sometimes works, but might also get bonded worse with the oil. Might try black electrical tape (that's what I used to use.) I really like take-down knives for this reason. Also, in my integrals, I can finish off the bolster separately from the handle and I really love that. Guards in a permanently attached handle are really a pain at the blade-side and handle-side. I kinda stopped using them, but that isn't an option for most of you suckers. ha ha.

Some things you just have to power through. Like I said above - it's a character builder :)
 
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would you except a knife with a g10/micarta/carbon fiber handle? or would it need to be wood? and if you except a wood handled knife would it have to be especially figured? would any would have to be stabilized?
 
Good question on the synthetics. You wouldn't have finishing problems there would ya? Just sand to 600 grit and you're done. So, the answer is that I don't know, but I don't remember anything about it necessarily requiring wood or natural (ivory) only.

I know irregular handles like those made from antler are frowned upon, so don't have any irregular pieces of anything on any test knife. They are looking to see that you can make your handle perfectly symmetrical. Go check the rules on that one - I'm too lazy tonight :)
 
Michael, what defines an ABS Journeyman knife?
I've heard that they probably aren't going to pass another set like Deitrich's wonderful ones, and when I get to JS I'm ok with it being an exercise, with doing it to suit a set of parameters, but beyond looking at successful test knives, what would you say the boundaries are?
Thanks for making yourself available for questions!!
 
Michael, I just wanted to say thanks for being so generous and sharing your hard earned knowledge.
I am not testing for JS but I will still save all the great info you posted here. I said it before, the knifemaking community is made up of the greatest people. :thumbup:

PS: Just wanted to let you know that a picture of one of your kitchen knives is one of the first that I remembered got my attention and started me down this wonderful path. Thanks a bunch.
 
Thanks for detailing out the handle finishing process Michael! I have learned so much from your WIP for Chris (knyfeknerd).

I have a question about design - your handle is iconic and can be recognizable from across the world. It's beautiful, unique, and I have only heard of good things about them. How did that design come about?
 
Thanks guys. I'm standing on the-shoulders-of-giants. Now, you can kinda climb up my arm a bit here too - ha ha. It's not a problem to share info and I especially like to inspire and challenge, so that's easy. "Hey ya dumb-dummy, grind that blade better." See? Easy!!

As far as what defines a J.S. knife, there are things that you can't do, like use damascus/mokume or irregular antler in the handle, etc..., but I think what the ABS organization is looking for at that rank is a bit of diversity of skills and that you can control the many variables that are required for different sort of knives. Also, realize there is some controversy involved too, like how you mentioned Dietriche's knives. And also, I remember none of Gary House's knives for J.S. (not his M.S. test) had guards and they changed the rules after that.

So, I'm not on the board or a judge and if you are going to be testing soon you really do need to start communicating with those that understand the rules there a little better than I do.

Regarding my handles, there were three things: first, I had sawdust in my diaper since I was a kid and in the beginning of my knifemaking career woodworking is all that I had. My blades were crap, but I could make pretty fancy handles. That is just carrying on here. Second, I didn't like how the end of a piece of highly figured wood had no figure to it. Very bland. So, the first experiment I had was to just flip a really nice piece of wood over and glue it to the end. That evolved into the curved, multi-wood thing you see now. Third, competition. I needed a bit of trademark look. One of the things Tom Ferry always said, was, "I could see (this or that) across the room." And I wanted my knives to be recognizable "across the room." So there ya go. What else have ya got?
 
Thanks for the thread Michael. I have been a fan of your stuff for years. Can I ask how do you make (and mate up) the curved pieces in your handle, like in this knife below?

rader.jpg
 
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