The Chisel Grind - Why?

Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I see the terminology used in many ways, in my opinion you can bring any micro bevel to a zero edge but a zero grind has no small or micro bevel... it only has one grind going directly to the edge.
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As both an engineer and an amateur knifemaker, I agree with that definition.

That said, making it happen and really work is not as easy as it seems.


The final geometry is what makes the knife a real user or not.




Big Mike
 
Daniel,
So, in your opinion why do you think most manufactures opt to not even offer a chisel grind? To my knowledge, the only large company that uses it is Emerson, and then some guys on here. What I tended to believe was it was not so good so no one decided to use it. I have not passed judgement on it because I have no first-hand experience, and Emerson's do not really appeal to me (and seem really overpriced), and I have not picked up a custom (you would be at the top of my list for sure if/when I decide to try one) with one either. So, if you appreciate it so much, what do you think everyone is missing or why are they electing to not use it?
 
I love the chisel grind and Phill Hartsfield himself introduced it to me 27+ years ago. At a knifeshow I was asking about his knives because the wraps intrigued me as well as the grind. The finish on his knife looked horrible when compared to the other knives at the show. But it is his work that has been on my mind all these years.

When I asked why he only ground the blade on one side and why the rough finish, he told me his knives were tools to be used and why waste time giving it a high finish when it is going to be ruined the first time you use it. He then took a buisness card and showed me how his knife once it pierced the card it would slide all the way to the grip with no effort. He then had me try to do it with the knife I had on me and of course the knife had to be pushed all the way with much more force to go the same depth.

The chisel grind is superior for what I do. I cut ray skin, card board, hose, wood and often need a flush flat cut on what I am cutting and do not want to have a angle cut on the material.

I am thankful to have met Phill
 
Most people like symmetry, which is likely why chisel grinds are not so popular. A popular knifemaker on this forum said that if you want to cut, the chisel grind performs better. If you want to collect, the double grind looks better.

chisel.png
 
nccole said:
Daniel,
So, in your opinion why do you think most manufactures opt to not even offer a chisel grind? To my knowledge, the only large company that uses it is Emerson, and then some guys on here. What I tended to believe was it was not so good so no one decided to use it. I have not passed judgement on it because I have no first-hand experience, and Emerson's do not really appeal to me (and seem really overpriced), and I have not picked up a custom (you would be at the top of my list for sure if/when I decide to try one) with one either. So, if you appreciate it so much, what do you think everyone is missing or why are they electing to not use it?
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nccole - excellent questions, thanks!

So, in your opinion why do you think most manufactures opt to not even offer a chisel grind? I think sales volume is key for any company, the chisel grind is not popular enough for most bigger knife companies to manufacture it.

I might sell more knives if I double ground them all but I love all the emails from people who are newly converted chisel grind fans! :D They really work. I also make what I would use, that is a big part of my philosophy as a knifemaker to make useful tools that I like.

Of course if you look it at it from another perspective one could say that sub $30 Chinese knives are the very most popular knife... I could care less about selling everyone in the world tons of knives. I like dealing with knife people, I have had many businesses and knife people are the most educated about the product, the most honorable, respectful and easy to deal with customers I have ever had.

Here is a recent thread I saw in the Spyderco forum addressing this question http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...flat-chisel-ground-H1?p=11140152#post11140152

the only large company that uses it is Emerson - this is a frustrating issue for me as Emerson knives are chisel ground for self defense or left handed use, right handed people use them and they do not work as well that way. (just my opinion from using a left sided bevel as a right handed person)

I heard that Emersons are ground that way so the signature and grind side is presented at a show... it is traditional to set the knife on the show table with the handle pointing to the right as it is natural for a right handed person to pick them up that way. As a defense tool or weapon the grind does not matter but my knives are not generally geared for that sort of use.

I have nothing but respect for Emerson knives by the way, they know what they are doing that is for sure... I just have a different way of doing my thing. I think there is room for both philosophies.


...if you appreciate it so much, what do you think everyone is missing or why are they electing to not use it? I feel aesthetics play a major role in sales, symmetry is a feature most of us look for. Improperly ground knives and knives with the bevel on the wrong side also lead to bad reviews, I understand that perspective too... if I had not tried a design and mostly heard bad reviews about it I wouldn't want one either.

I made a chisel ground knife as my first knife, I will never forget the first time I used it... I went to sharpen a pencil and cut the end clean off! The effortless cutting and increased ergonomics (angle wise) were too much to overlook and I have mostly made chisel ground knives ever since.
 
gooeytek said:
Most people like symmetry, which is likely why chisel grinds are not so popular. A popular knifemaker on this forum said that if you want to cut, the chisel grind performs better. If you want to collect, the double grind looks better.
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Exactly! That sums it up.

Thanks for posting the awesome diagram by the way!
 
AVigil said:
I love the chisel grind and Phill Hartsfield himself introduced it to me 27+ years ago. At a knifeshow I was asking about his knives because the wraps intrigued me as well as the grind. The finish on his knife looked horrible when compared to the other knives at the show. But it is his work that has been on my mind all these years.

When I asked why he only ground the blade on one side and why the rough finish, he told me his knives were tools to be used and why waste time giving it a high finish when it is going to be ruined the first time you use it. He then took a buisness card and showed me how his knife once it pierced the card it would slide all the way to the grip with no effort. He then had me try to do it with the knife I had on me and of course the knife had to be pushed all the way with much more force to go the same depth.

The chisel grind is superior for what I do. I cut ray skin, card board, hose, wood and often need a flush flat cut on what I am cutting and do not want to have a angle cut on the material.

I am thankful to have met Phill
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Quoted for awesomeness!

Phill Hartsfield made knives that really inspire me, they are possibly my all time favorites.

I know what you mean about piercing the card too, most of mine are ground that way as well. They are strong where they need to be and thin in the right places.

Flush cuts, there is something to say about that!
 
Great thread. When executed correctly, the chisel grind is my hands-down favorite.
Pohan Leu knows how to do the chisel grind too.
BTW, I just realized that the Spyderco serrated edge is chisel ground... kinda. :D
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
the only large company that uses it is Emerson - this is a frustrating issue for me as Emerson knives are chisel ground for self defense or left handed use, right handed people use them and they do not work as well that way. (just my opinion from using a left sided bevel as a right handed person)

I heard that Emersons are ground that way so the signature and grind side is presented at a show... it is traditional to set the knife on the show table with the handle pointing to the right as it is natural for a right handed person to pick them up that way. As a defense tool or weapon the grind does not matter but my knives are not generally geared for that sort of use.
Click to expand...

And this is where my hatred for and distaste for emerson and chisel grinds came from. In all honesty I have never used a right handed chisel grind. I tried an emerson....hated how it cut because it was in the wrong direction for use and have not tried it since. I am very glad for this post as it has opened me up to trying a chisel grind again but this time done the "right" way. Hardly any manufacturers offer chisel grinds and why on earth would I order one custom made for me if my experience was poor in the past (just saying, now I plan to do this). Thank you for this thread as I now plan to give chisel another try.
 
barrabas74 said:
And this is where my hatred for and distaste for emerson and chisel grinds came from. In all honesty I have never used a right handed chisel grind. I tried an emerson....hated how it cut because it was in the wrong direction for use and have not tried it since. I am very glad for this post as it has opened me up to trying a chisel grind again but this time done the "right" way. Hardly any manufacturers offer chisel grinds and why on earth would I order one custom made for me if my experience was poor in the past (just saying, now I plan to do this). Thank you for this thread as I now plan to give chisel another try.
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That is great to hear!

Lycosa said:
Cool. ^
Wait till Daniel tries the Asymmetrical blade.
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That latest friction folder... asy all the way! I like the different asymmetrical grinds, the older Busse knives made that way are really cool. I have turned the last few double grind knives that I have bought into Asy grinds, I think they are awesome. For my use I pull the left side as close to zero as possible.

Leu Custom said:
chisel grinds...what are those?
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Yeah you wouldn't know about that stuff Pohan... :D
 
Beyond Emerson, CRKT uses an asymmetric grind, double hollow and a left hand edge bevel on a right hand locking folding knife. They have done this on all their Carson designs for years and I believe is the biggest determinning factor in peoples poor opinion of chisel grinds. Very popular knife with poor edge design and not to mention using aus-4 steel, yuck! I have a few of their older stuff with good steel, but the left edge and right lock is just flat out a pain in the ass to use for detail work!

A big plus for the chisel grind is the fact that the drag inducing points from bevel angle changes are cut in half. Every time a grind changes angles it creates a point; micro bevel to edge bevel, edge bevel to primary bevel, and the same for both sides of a V ground knife! Some will argue that a convex grind (Moran grind) eliminates this, but it also creates a larger tool angle making low angle cutting difficult without skipping. It also puts lots of steel behing the edge, making it actually more difficult to sharpen the edge. Another effect of the convex edge grind is that it produces low height micro-bevels creating massive wedging/tearing effect.

Edge condition on the micro level involves grit finish and things like how keen an edge is to produce lasting cutting ability. Smooth edges "feel" dull because they don't catch and grab when infact they often will slice you without ever feeling it! Think of a polished edge of a razor blade, it has the most steel at the very edge and lasts much longer than say a 400 grit edge. A coarse edge will feel sharper because it will grab nd tear like a micro saw, but not last as long. It is a good choice for people needing quick cuts with minimal strokes, but may not necesarily care about retention. That's where steel alloy comes in, but I don't feel like opening that can-o-worms right now.


That's my thoughts


-Xander
 
How would a chisel grind perform in 9'' chopper form? Surely if the single bevel were steep enough it could be just as if not more robust than a double grind?
 
barrabas74 said:
And this is where my hatred for and distaste for emerson and chisel grinds came from. In all honesty I have never used a right handed chisel grind. I tried an emerson....hated how it cut because it was in the wrong direction for use and have not tried it since. I am very glad for this post as it has opened me up to trying a chisel grind again but this time done the "right" way. Hardly any manufacturers offer chisel grinds and why on earth would I order one custom made for me if my experience was poor in the past (just saying, now I plan to do this). Thank you for this thread as I now plan to give chisel another try.
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I was a bit apprehensive as well, being an Emerson owner also (won't buy another "unwaved" folder). I was fairly(;)) certain a right handed grind would solve the previously mentioned problems...and it does!

I'm REALLY glad I gave chisel grinds another chance, and you will be too B!!


Very cool thread, lots of great info!
 
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