The good and bad of linerlocks, (and whose are best?)

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peshkabz

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May 6, 2003
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I was under the impression, before finding this forum, that linerlocks were the safest of locks. (for this thread - I am talking about well respected makers and manufacturers.) It seems I am reading some negative comments about them now, so here are my questions:

1. What are the pro's and con's of linerlocks?

2. Who makes good quality linerlocks..ie, are there some of our favorite manufacturers weak in this area?, and

3. What are the better lock designs? By Whom??
 
personally I am not a huge fan of linerlocks, however I do believe that if they are designed properly they can be quite a good lock.

The trick for the designer is to keep the liner out of the way of your index finger so there is no chance of contact with the middle joint of the index finger and the liner.

A bad example in my opion of a linerlock is the crkt crawford kasper design. the liner being in the curout for the index finger is bad for me personally because it catches on the thick skin on the side of my index finger and it will easily disengage the lock with a very small amount of torsion.

An excellent linerlock design for me would be the fallkneven mod p. This liner is kind of half way between a liner lock and a frame lock. the scales of the knife stop shy of the lock which means there is nothing near the lock to allow your fingers to press against to disengage the lock. great little knife.
 
I only own liner locks. I myself, am not into using a folding knife for fighting so as far as SD goes ..... But, I do a lot of "rugged" outdoor activities that require these three things of a folding knife: 1)Clean easily.
2)Lock the tang from the bottom, not the top.
3)Fit my hand as far as one handed opening/closing goes.
I believe that if someone needs a blade that won't fold on their fingers, they need a fixed blade. Some people go to ridiculus lengths to see how strong their locks are. Whatever. ;)
 
This subject can generate a lot of heat, BTW!

The linerlock has a few advantages. For the knifemaker, it's a lock that's very easy to make in principle, with simple tools. For the user, the linerlock can be made to have an opening action that's smooth as silk, because there's little spring tension on the blade applied by the lock. It's also comforting that the lock is mechanically simple -- just a leaf spring and an angled blade tang. And lastly, one-hand operation is always nice.

The biggest downside to the linerlock, in my experience, is that it is extremely difficult to manufacture reliable liner locks on a consistent basis. Liner locks are more dependent on geometric nuances than any lock format I've ever seen. And think about it: what happens as you torque the blade and handle? What happens as the lock wears, or the blade moves across the tang due to spine pressure? Yes, you got it, the lock geometry changes. And liner locks are also susceptible to the skin of your hands sinking around the lock and causing an accidental disengagement. In summary, in my experience liner locks have a higher % of reliability problems than any other lock format. And even the best liner lock manufacturers put out more unreliable liner locks than I'm comfortable with.

The other downside of the liner lock is that the blade is not held into the handle through spring tension (ala the lockback, axis lock, etc.). Instead, it uses a ball detent system, which is a little tricky to get right, and which many makers are often sloppy with. The result is that you'll see more accidental openings in pockets with liner locks.

Joe
 
Joe explained it really well,

I have a problem with both custom and production liner locks. It seems after awhile they all have gone from locking up solid to loosening and having "blade wobble". On the positive side as Joe pointed out, they can be very smooth both opening and closing them.
 
I am currently waiting to get my first frame lock in the next few weeks. I will be interested to see how this compares to a liner lock. I am hopeful that it will be a fair bit 'better'
 
I have seen many folks post regarding problems with liner locks. I have not had one close during use, nor fail. Several liner lock blades I own are 8 and 11 years old.

I believe that as with anything, one does have to pay attention to what you are doing.
 
I have used different types of lock for many years, most work fine if properly made and you don´t expect from them what you shouldn´t, basically a folder is not a fixed blade and no lock will make it so.

I believe a lock is to prevent the knife from accidentally closing on your fingers, it shouldn´t have to make the back of the blade usable (as in a double edged blade).

If the blade is held open by a back spring, then it shouldn´t be considered a problem if the lock allows a little bit of play in the closing direction.

If the blade is not held closed by a spring then there should be some other effective way to keep the knife closed, some locking systems also lock the blade when closed, a good idea.

IMHO the problem with most modern liner locks (and frame locks) is that the blade can open accidentally, something that could be easily avoided with a back spring as in old traditional liner locks.
 
Originally posted by Don Luis
I have used different types of lock for many years, most work fine if properly made and you don´t expect from them what you shouldn´t, basically a folder is not a fixed blade and no lock will make it so.
Click to expand...

Don, that's a reasonable statement, and I don't think anyone can argue with it. Of course, the phrase "don't expect from them what you shouldn't" is very very open to interpretation. I personally don't think most people who are critical of liner locks have unreasonable expectations, in fact, I think it's often the defenders whose expectations are much too low. For example:

I believe a lock is to prevent the knife from accidentally closing on your fingers, it shouldn´t have to make the back of the blade usable (as in a double edged blade).
Click to expand...

Okay, if that's how you want to interpret it. But anything other than light-duty gents' knives can get signficant spine pressure doing pretty reasonable things. There have been a fair number of liner lock failures when guys do things as light as gardening, cutting boxes, etc. The knife gets wedged in the material, and a light tug to free it puts closing pressure that releases the lock. So even a medium-use knife can see spine pressure during reasonable use, and should be able to stand up to it. All lock formats except linerlocks seem to usually be able to do this with no problem.

And when you're talking hard use, which many tactical liner locks specifically say they are for, you should pretty much expect torquing, white knuckling, spine pressure, etc. You might say I'm unreasonable for expecting a lock to stand up to that. I say that if the makers specifically state that this is what their knife is for, then I'm reasonable in my expectation that the lock hold up to this.

In the end, I often seen the words "a folder isn't a fixed-blade" often used as an excuse for expectations that are set too low. Ya, okay, maybe you shouldn't expect your liner lock to hold up to spine pressure. But many locks done right can stand up to a whole lot of spine pressure, torquing, etc., without having these problems. Don't dismiss a problem lock format too quickly, especially when other formats don't see the same problem.


IMHO the problem with most modern liner locks (and frame locks) is that the blade can open accidentally, something that could be easily avoided with a back spring as in old traditional liner locks.
Click to expand...

Something I do agree with, that's a problem also. Even a well-done ball detent doesn't work as well as a spring, and many makers seem to treat the ball detent as an afterthought.
 
Originally posted by peshkabz
1. What are the pro's and con's of linerlocks?

2. Who makes good quality linerlocks..ie, are there some of our favorite manufacturers weak in this area?, and

3. What are the better lock designs? By Whom??
Click to expand...

1. Pros: Easy to manufacture, and very simple to operate. Cons: Can disengage accidentally with a twisting action.

2. My favorite linerlocks have been from Benchmade. (such as the 690BC1 and the 814HS)

3. My favorite lock is the AXIS lock by Benchmade.
 
... and it is not the be all end all strongest part of the knife. Knives fails. So do locks. Some are better than others. Caveat emptor.
 
Love the AXIS. I have been very uneasy about liner locks. I have always been uneasy about having to cross a closing blade. I've been bit a couple of times, usually when I wasn't paying as close attention as I should have been. ..note to self ....knives are sharp......I have an Al Mar S2K and a couple of Emersons that I carry regularly...I like the ergonomics and usefulness of these knives enough to "overlook" the fact that they are liner locks. I have a REKAT Pioneer and a mini griptilian that have never given me difficulty. I just haven't found AXIS equipped knives in all the configurations that I like. I imagine that when an AXIS knife that feels and works like S2K comes along a number of my knives will feel lonely. I have never had a liner lock fail me in "normal use". I tend to be a conservative user, when I want to really get burly.....out come the fixed knives......
 
Originally posted by peshkabz
I was under the impression, before finding this forum, that linerlocks were the safest of locks.
Click to expand...

Some good comments already on this thread to the perennial issue of the liner lock. There is a tendency on the forums to "bash" the liner lock. Keep in mind that the liner lock is still widely used by some of the most respected custom makers out there. Just to name a few that come to mind: Pat Crawford, Allen Elishewitz and Bob Terzuola. There are many more.

That said, many advances in lock technology have been made, such as the above-mentioned Axis lock. These advances are important and are probably leading the way into the future of the folding knife, at least in terms of overall safety.

IMHO, a well designed and built liner lock, such as on the Al Mar SERE 2000, is just about as safe and reliable as it gets.

Frame locks are, in my experience, even more difficult to consistently "get right". Some, as on the Sebenza, are virtual examples of incredible design and execution. It is not easy to do this on a consistant basis, and the price of a Sebenza reflects this.

In conclusion, I wouldn't automatically "dis" any lock type--but do your homework before you take the plunge--especially for an expensive piece that you plan on spending some quality time with. :)
 
I would think that reliability also depends on the price point.

For example, if you took a sample of 100 Griptilians, and 100 of a linerlocker from any production company at the same price point, I'm inclined to think that overall, the Griptilians are going to be made more reliably due to the lock type. For a linerlocker of $200 plus, I'd be much less worried of getting a lemon, whereas with any AXIS locker, I'd be comfortable buying one sight unseen (just with the consideration of lock strength and reliability, not fit and finish).

Safety-wise, I think the Axis-lock (and variants) are the best out there for the price.
 
I just bought a few knives with the LAWK system - does that help much to ensure 'how much' additional 'security?

Are the lock backs then a better, overall more consistant lock system?

Some of you guys are really rocking my socks with sage knowledge - glad to have found this forum!!
 
I admit, i like liner and frame locks when theyre done right, which as others have said, is not very often, and folks, the price point has little to do with it. I can't tell you how many high dollar customs, from some of the top makers have poorly executed liner or frame locks. I saw a custom Emerson the other day, a very expensive knife, with a truly pathetic liner lock and blade play, it was brand new, i still dont get why people pay what they do for them. In fairness to Emerson, I have seen the same from just about all of the top makers of tactical knives, a good maker seems to be one who has less bad locks out there than others. As was said, its very difficult for a maker to get these types of locks consistantly right, but, when they do, its a pretty good lock.

I still believe the Sebenza is the best liner/frame lock available, are there other designs that are as good, yes a few, but no maker i have seen, and again, this includes custom, can produce a perfectly fitted liner/frame lock as consistantly as CR does. With liner/frame locks, the trick isnt getting a good design, its the execution of it thats hard, its simply very tough to turn out lots of knives with these locks that are consistantly correctly fitted. Though it is difficult for makers to get them right every time, i still am amazed when i see a tactical from one of the top makers with a bad lock and/or blade play, i just dont understand how on earth they can let a knife like that out of their shop, its as if they dont examine their knives before shipping them given how obvious the flaws often are. Its not rocket science, if you open the blade, and the liner goes most of the way to the right side, its a bad lock, if the lock engages the blade so barely that a little force will cause the blade to close, its a BAD LOCK. If the knife has blade play, well, IT HAS BLADE PLAY! How do they NOT see this, dont they care??? I underdstand nobody's perfect, but i see this way too often, and often these are $500-$800 knives. I can live with a less than perfectly centered blade, but a bad lock should never leave the maker.

So, yes, alternative locking systems should continue to be explored and improved. I think the liner lock has its place, but will be relatively obsolete from a functional standpoint when something better and safer comes along.

And yes, the LAWKS system does work pretty well, but you do lose the simplicity and convienience of a lock without it, which is the appeal of the liner lock.

I recall someone's signature line which says that the strongest and best folder's lock is only as strong as the weakest and worst fixed blade's.

Fixed blades will never be obsolete.
 
Originally posted by Megalobyte
I admit, i like liner and frame locks when theyre done right, which as others have said, is not very often, and folks, the price point has little to do with it. I can't tell you how many high dollar customs, from some of the top makers have poorly executed liner or frame locks. I saw a custom Emerson the other day, a very expensive knife, with a truly pathetic liner lock and blade play, it was brand new, i still dont get why people pay what they do for them. In fairness to Emerson, I have seen the same from just about all of the top makers of tactical knives, a good maker seems to be one who has less bad locks out there than others. As was said, its very difficult for a maker to get these types of locks consistantly right, but, when they do, its a pretty good lock.
Click to expand...

I concur completely with the above. Price and fame of the maker is no assurance in this case.

And yes, the LAWKS system does work pretty well, but you do lose the simplicity and convienience of a lock without it, which is the appeal of the liner lock.
Click to expand...

Yep, also agre the LAWKS works, provided you don't mind the extra step

Fixed blades will never be obsolete. [/B][/QUOTE]
 
I HATE liner-locks, but IMO, the best of the breed is the nested liner-lock of the Spyderco Military model.
 
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