I've seen a # of other posts on this list regarding the worthiness of knives. This topic is a very important one. Knives are our tools, our lives may depend on them. With this in mind, I am frustrated at the common feeling in some knife magazines (particularily Knives Illustrated) that they should only review "good knives". This sentiment was recently raised in a response to the editor column , "The Listening Post" in the most recent issue of KI. I don't want to single out KI as I've not seen the other 2 major knife publications review a knife poorly either. They (KI) just openly verified what I perceive is a trend in the industry. I certaintly understand the importance of utilizing limited & expensive print to the maximum cost effective benefit. At the same time however I would propose that knife publications list all knives submitted for review, and list those knives judged too inferior to review. The reason for this would be helpful as well (quality issues, poor design, unsafe, poor fit & finish, inferior materials etc.) It might be reasonable as well to ask any maker to submit a second knife for review if the initial one failed. This would be great feedback to the buying publick as well as to the makers themselves. It would help us evaluate which knives & makers hold to the standards we require.
-
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The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
- Thread starter Drew
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 1, 1998
- Messages
- 61
Rant mode on!
Dream on, Drew.
You've picked on one of my pet peeves here - the lack of any objective testing of knives in print. I strongly suspect that the knife magazines are so dependent on the knife-making advertisers that they wouldn't dare risk offending one and losing his advertising. Also, I believe that manufacturers and knifemakers/manufacturers normally 'donate' knives to the various writers with the implied understanding that 'You give me a good review, you get more knives'. (I'm glad, by the way, that I'm not faced with the same choice!)
One organization that I respect highly is the Consumer Union. They blind-purchase all of the items they review and accept no advertising, so there's no manufacturer dependency. And they say it like it is. Any time they review a group of items there's a clear ranking, and if some item is deficient, you hear about it clearly. The idea that their print volume is too precious to use in a 'bad' review is pretty ludicrous.
I totally agree with your stated desire to hear about ALL the reviews from the magazines, but we'd need a real change in publishers, writers, and readership to get it. And I'll have to plead guilty myself - I know they're about as objective as the average politician (just substitute lobbyists for advertisers), but I go ahead and buy them anyway.
Some years ago I heard the story of the man who was gambling in the back of a drugstore in a small town. Someone asked him why he continued to gamble there, as he and everyone else knew the games were rigged. He replied, 'Yes, but it's the only game in town'. I've got a lot of sympathy for that man.
Rant mode off - for now . . .
------------------
Dream on, Drew.
You've picked on one of my pet peeves here - the lack of any objective testing of knives in print. I strongly suspect that the knife magazines are so dependent on the knife-making advertisers that they wouldn't dare risk offending one and losing his advertising. Also, I believe that manufacturers and knifemakers/manufacturers normally 'donate' knives to the various writers with the implied understanding that 'You give me a good review, you get more knives'. (I'm glad, by the way, that I'm not faced with the same choice!)
One organization that I respect highly is the Consumer Union. They blind-purchase all of the items they review and accept no advertising, so there's no manufacturer dependency. And they say it like it is. Any time they review a group of items there's a clear ranking, and if some item is deficient, you hear about it clearly. The idea that their print volume is too precious to use in a 'bad' review is pretty ludicrous.
I totally agree with your stated desire to hear about ALL the reviews from the magazines, but we'd need a real change in publishers, writers, and readership to get it. And I'll have to plead guilty myself - I know they're about as objective as the average politician (just substitute lobbyists for advertisers), but I go ahead and buy them anyway.
Some years ago I heard the story of the man who was gambling in the back of a drugstore in a small town. Someone asked him why he continued to gamble there, as he and everyone else knew the games were rigged. He replied, 'Yes, but it's the only game in town'. I've got a lot of sympathy for that man.
Rant mode off - for now . . .
------------------
I love looking at the pretty picture in the magazines. But I have yet to see a review of the "bad and ugly" of any knifemaker. And even the "good" can be suspect.
I think the honest reviews generally come in these forums from the users who rarely have the "vested" interests beyond having a good knife for their money and willing to talk about it when turns out either way.
my .00002 worth.
sing
I think the honest reviews generally come in these forums from the users who rarely have the "vested" interests beyond having a good knife for their money and willing to talk about it when turns out either way.
my .00002 worth.
sing
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,337
Have to agree here. I get all the magazines to keep up with the industry. But when it comes to reviews 9 out of 10 times look through the magazine and look for the knife which is being reviewed I will wager they have a pretty good ad already placed. I for one would love to know which custom makers have gorgeous stuff in there pictures but when handled the fit and finish leaves much to be desired for the money that is being asked. In the 15 or so years I have been reading BLADE I have never read a negative article about a knife period whether custom or factory. Now with places like this forum and others expanding on the web we have much more resourses to judge our future knife buying on. The last issue of K.I. the editor Bud Laing all but dismissed the people who post on these forums as in sorely need of a life.Well unless I"m missing something here the internet seems to be whats going to be happening in the future and as we grow larger everyday the knife publications had better wake up and realize this.As far as I'm concerned here is where you will find the dedicated and educated knife users.
Bob
Bob
I mainly buy the magazines for the pictures. I generally know which knives are already coming out or have been out for months before a magazine shows it but sometimes it exposes me to other knives.
I am however very skeptical of the reviews. I understand that the magazines will throw out reviews and return inferior knives. Nevertheless, the reviews that all go in are hopelessly generic and do not tell anything about the performance on the knife. I like the little bit of history that some of the magazines give, but otherwise you could switch the latter paragraphs between many knives.
How can the KISS, CRKT Apache, Benchmades, Spydercos and Microtechs etc., all be great, awesome knives, perform the same and only have one very very minor drawback. This just isn't possible. If I were an alien from another planet, I couldn't tell any difference between these knives. I'm sorry, but all of these knives do not have a secure lock-up and are 100% safe as stated.
Each and veryone one of us could probably rattle off ten impossible things that certain articles have claimed that are just pure B.S. I refrain from pointing out too many specifics but offer one as a general model. There was a review of an Elishewitz folder recently. The model of the knife is great and several forumites love it and wrote reviews about it one month ago. The review in this magazine was along the lines of "it has a pocket clip so you can clip it," "the thumb stud helps open the knife" or "the scales are made of carbon fiber so there is a good grip." Are these observations just completely banal just to me. Talk about master of the obvious. Talk about taking two seconds to look at a knife and 1 second to write the review. The "review" just basically described the knife and drew obvious concluions. The blade is sharp so it will cut.
Anyway, I enjoy the forums because I can get real reviews from people who use their knives.
JMHO
Jason
I am however very skeptical of the reviews. I understand that the magazines will throw out reviews and return inferior knives. Nevertheless, the reviews that all go in are hopelessly generic and do not tell anything about the performance on the knife. I like the little bit of history that some of the magazines give, but otherwise you could switch the latter paragraphs between many knives.
How can the KISS, CRKT Apache, Benchmades, Spydercos and Microtechs etc., all be great, awesome knives, perform the same and only have one very very minor drawback. This just isn't possible. If I were an alien from another planet, I couldn't tell any difference between these knives. I'm sorry, but all of these knives do not have a secure lock-up and are 100% safe as stated.
Each and veryone one of us could probably rattle off ten impossible things that certain articles have claimed that are just pure B.S. I refrain from pointing out too many specifics but offer one as a general model. There was a review of an Elishewitz folder recently. The model of the knife is great and several forumites love it and wrote reviews about it one month ago. The review in this magazine was along the lines of "it has a pocket clip so you can clip it," "the thumb stud helps open the knife" or "the scales are made of carbon fiber so there is a good grip." Are these observations just completely banal just to me. Talk about master of the obvious. Talk about taking two seconds to look at a knife and 1 second to write the review. The "review" just basically described the knife and drew obvious concluions. The blade is sharp so it will cut.
Anyway, I enjoy the forums because I can get real reviews from people who use their knives.
JMHO
Jason
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Ok guys, you want the truth about knife magazines and knife makers here it is.
Knifemakers are very prideful individuals. They, like most of us have a health ego when it comes to their chosen profession. So for a magazine to give a negative review in a magazine with a international customer base, would be detremental to a knife makers lively hood. And as Guido "the killer pimp" in the movie "Risky Business" so elquently stated, never F**K with a man's lively hood. Not to mention, you would be amazed at the amount of petty jealousy and immaturaty of full grown men. To give you an example, I was talking with a Knifmakers Guild board member (who is no longer on the board). He was telling me about some of the complaints the Guild receives. Complaints such as, that maker charges too little for his knives. How can I compete with them, etc. Now, with that kind of mentality out there do you really want to open yourself up for abuse from these indivduals.
The other side of the coin is, who are the poeple who are reviewing the knives and what are their qualifications. All three of the major publications have writers, who have a marginal knowldege of knives at best. Remember, they are writers not knife experts.
So is it fair for one of these writers who puts a negative review in the magazine they are writing for. Obviously the answer is no.
What you have are the three major publications and Knife World trying to put out the best magazine they can.
For those of you who feel this is wrong, perhaps you could ask Mike for your own forum. Dexter Ewing is already doing the reviews on this forum. Perhaps you could approach him with a differnt angle. But be advised your credentials had better be first rate.
Also, if you put negatives in print, be prepared to defend yourself legally. I have received letters from Emerson's and Reeve's attornies. Of course they had to be answered by my attorney. By the way, regarding Emerson, one of the complaints lodged against me was that I was making the false claim that Emerson did not deliver his knives on time. Now, if I can receive a legal document for telling the truth, imagine what would happen if it got into the gray area. By the way, I responded to Emerson's allegations on December 17th 1997 and never heard from him again.
For those of you who know me, you understand that I have this "character flaw" as some call it. I still belive that a man's word (or ladies word (PC)) should mean something. Way back in the 80's and early 90's when I was in the Army, as an officer, your word was everything. I saw officers relived of duty for lying. However, as it has been pointed out to me, that the civilan sector does not have the same reverence for integrity. Proof, Bill Clinton is still President.
The point to this is, that it is up to you as an individual to take the makers, writers and magainzes to task. If you feel something is wrong, let them know about it, with constructive criticism. I voice my opinion all the time. Sometimes it's welcome, other times it's not. For instance, I let Steve Shackelford (editor of Blade Magazine) know that I thought his recent article on tactical knives was put together poorly. He had no "experts". While Fred Carter is a incredible knife maker and Dave Harvey of Nordic Knives and Gary Levine are well known dealers. Ther forte is really not tactical knives. Dave sells primarily very expensive custom knives and Randall's. Gary is known for his expensive engraved custom knives. All the aforementioned indivduals have a certain level of expertise. It is just very limited in the area of tactical knvies.
I recommend talking to people such as Bob Kasper, Rob Cude, Kim Breed, Jay Sadow, hell maybe even me!
He took this in the spirit it was intended. That it helps the legitimacy of the article if you use people who are known to have expertise in a particular area. I equated this to asking me about engraving and scrimshaw. Yes, at times I do sell that type of knife. But I in no way consider myself a "expert" in that area of custom knives.
Steve Shackelford, Steven Dick and Bud Lang are all very knowledgeable knife guys. It is there jobs as editors to do what is best for their magazines. Overall, I think they do an excellent job. I know all these gentlemen personally, they would love to hear your ideas and suggestions. You never know, you may find yourself writing an article.
As for which is show and which is go. You will need to make the decision for yourself. As each of you will have a different critera as to what your knife will have to have to work for your specific needs.
I was fortunate enough to have been a custom knife dealer while I was still in the Army. This afforded me the opprotunity to test several knives sided by side under exact same conditions. If found which knives I liked and which I didnt. Again, this was personal choice. After spending about $25,000 on custom knives I finally figured it out. From my perspective, if you want to know which knives and/or knifemakers produce the best for the money, visit my site.
If you disagree, great. Perhaps I will learn something from you. That is one of the things I like best about this forum, is the diversity of knives,knife makers and materials that collectors/users are looking for.
We all understand the power of the press, both positively and negatively. My first custom knife was a Robert Parrish hollow hadle survival knife. I liked it for the serrations on top (to cut through the skin of a helicopter, assuming I lived, after a crash). But the other thing I wanted was the hollow handle! Why, because Rambo had one.
I still love Rambo II where the woman asks him what brings him luck, and he pulls out that beautiful 10" black bladed, serrated top, knife and says, "this I guess".
Please keep at it fellow hype skeptics. The custom knife community is a small one. The word does get around fast.
I love my job!
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!
Knifemakers are very prideful individuals. They, like most of us have a health ego when it comes to their chosen profession. So for a magazine to give a negative review in a magazine with a international customer base, would be detremental to a knife makers lively hood. And as Guido "the killer pimp" in the movie "Risky Business" so elquently stated, never F**K with a man's lively hood. Not to mention, you would be amazed at the amount of petty jealousy and immaturaty of full grown men. To give you an example, I was talking with a Knifmakers Guild board member (who is no longer on the board). He was telling me about some of the complaints the Guild receives. Complaints such as, that maker charges too little for his knives. How can I compete with them, etc. Now, with that kind of mentality out there do you really want to open yourself up for abuse from these indivduals.
The other side of the coin is, who are the poeple who are reviewing the knives and what are their qualifications. All three of the major publications have writers, who have a marginal knowldege of knives at best. Remember, they are writers not knife experts.
So is it fair for one of these writers who puts a negative review in the magazine they are writing for. Obviously the answer is no.
What you have are the three major publications and Knife World trying to put out the best magazine they can.
For those of you who feel this is wrong, perhaps you could ask Mike for your own forum. Dexter Ewing is already doing the reviews on this forum. Perhaps you could approach him with a differnt angle. But be advised your credentials had better be first rate.
Also, if you put negatives in print, be prepared to defend yourself legally. I have received letters from Emerson's and Reeve's attornies. Of course they had to be answered by my attorney. By the way, regarding Emerson, one of the complaints lodged against me was that I was making the false claim that Emerson did not deliver his knives on time. Now, if I can receive a legal document for telling the truth, imagine what would happen if it got into the gray area. By the way, I responded to Emerson's allegations on December 17th 1997 and never heard from him again.
For those of you who know me, you understand that I have this "character flaw" as some call it. I still belive that a man's word (or ladies word (PC)) should mean something. Way back in the 80's and early 90's when I was in the Army, as an officer, your word was everything. I saw officers relived of duty for lying. However, as it has been pointed out to me, that the civilan sector does not have the same reverence for integrity. Proof, Bill Clinton is still President.
The point to this is, that it is up to you as an individual to take the makers, writers and magainzes to task. If you feel something is wrong, let them know about it, with constructive criticism. I voice my opinion all the time. Sometimes it's welcome, other times it's not. For instance, I let Steve Shackelford (editor of Blade Magazine) know that I thought his recent article on tactical knives was put together poorly. He had no "experts". While Fred Carter is a incredible knife maker and Dave Harvey of Nordic Knives and Gary Levine are well known dealers. Ther forte is really not tactical knives. Dave sells primarily very expensive custom knives and Randall's. Gary is known for his expensive engraved custom knives. All the aforementioned indivduals have a certain level of expertise. It is just very limited in the area of tactical knvies.
I recommend talking to people such as Bob Kasper, Rob Cude, Kim Breed, Jay Sadow, hell maybe even me!
He took this in the spirit it was intended. That it helps the legitimacy of the article if you use people who are known to have expertise in a particular area. I equated this to asking me about engraving and scrimshaw. Yes, at times I do sell that type of knife. But I in no way consider myself a "expert" in that area of custom knives.
Steve Shackelford, Steven Dick and Bud Lang are all very knowledgeable knife guys. It is there jobs as editors to do what is best for their magazines. Overall, I think they do an excellent job. I know all these gentlemen personally, they would love to hear your ideas and suggestions. You never know, you may find yourself writing an article.
As for which is show and which is go. You will need to make the decision for yourself. As each of you will have a different critera as to what your knife will have to have to work for your specific needs.
I was fortunate enough to have been a custom knife dealer while I was still in the Army. This afforded me the opprotunity to test several knives sided by side under exact same conditions. If found which knives I liked and which I didnt. Again, this was personal choice. After spending about $25,000 on custom knives I finally figured it out. From my perspective, if you want to know which knives and/or knifemakers produce the best for the money, visit my site.
If you disagree, great. Perhaps I will learn something from you. That is one of the things I like best about this forum, is the diversity of knives,knife makers and materials that collectors/users are looking for.
We all understand the power of the press, both positively and negatively. My first custom knife was a Robert Parrish hollow hadle survival knife. I liked it for the serrations on top (to cut through the skin of a helicopter, assuming I lived, after a crash). But the other thing I wanted was the hollow handle! Why, because Rambo had one.
I still love Rambo II where the woman asks him what brings him luck, and he pulls out that beautiful 10" black bladed, serrated top, knife and says, "this I guess".
Please keep at it fellow hype skeptics. The custom knife community is a small one. The word does get around fast.
I love my job!
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!
The reviews in knife mags are like the reviews in auto mags. Absolutely worthless.
That is due to the way their business works.
I won't even get into the reasons for this, it's too long a list, and besides it's just business for them.
Here is where we will get valid reviews and relevant information. And it'll only get better.
As for the KI editor who dissed the forums, perhaps he's unhappy because he senses that his publication has a rapidly diminishing influence on ELU's and perhaps his revenues. He's watching it slip away right in front of his eyes. And it'll only get worse.
As always Les, respectable opinons on your part.
------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight
Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
That is due to the way their business works.
I won't even get into the reasons for this, it's too long a list, and besides it's just business for them.
Here is where we will get valid reviews and relevant information. And it'll only get better.
As for the KI editor who dissed the forums, perhaps he's unhappy because he senses that his publication has a rapidly diminishing influence on ELU's and perhaps his revenues. He's watching it slip away right in front of his eyes. And it'll only get worse.
As always Les, respectable opinons on your part.
------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight
Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Ron
First not all reviews are worthless. There are several very good writers that work for all the magazines.
Guys, as we all know if your not willing to take a stance then you get what you deserve.
If you have a problem with Bud Lang, write and tell him so. It does not good to just whine about it then not follow through.
If as Ron suggests its all about the dollar. Then use yours to vote. Dont buy the magazine(s), dont buy from the makers who you think are more show than go,etc. Speaking of the dollar, you realize you get about $400 for an article. Got a favorite maker, or someone who you think does excellent work. Write an article on them.
Ladies and Gentlemen, like it or not the dollar and politics affect custom knives. If your not happy with the way something is going. Write the magazines, cancel or dont renew your subscriptions, etc.
Several years ago I was an associate member of the Knifemakers Guild. I wrote the President at the time and several other board memebers and asked for their catalogs. I never got them. I figured if this is the way they treat an associate memember imagine the way they treat non or honorary members. So I quit. Did this turn the Guild around, no. However, I didnt have to bitch about the Guild anymore because it made no difference to me. Let me state now, that I think the Guild is starting to do a much better job of policing themselves.
There is no one regulatory body for custom knives. So if you dont like what is going on then you have to help fix it. I know I personally piss off people on a regular basis. Mostly, because I feel it necessary to tell someone when I think they are doing the custom knife community wrong.
There are well known makers who I have told to their face that I will never buy a knife from them because of their ethics or business practices. They are still making knives and are fairly successful. This is fine, I know that they are not getting any of my money, nor are any of their knives taking up space on my table at a show or on my web site.
Both the maker and I know, this has cost them sales. I enjoy knowing I have cost that maker money by losing them a sale.
By the same token, I will go out of my way to help a knifemaker who has integrity and is trying to provide their customers the best work they can. Even if I dont carry their knives, I will recommend them to customers who are looking for their particular type work.
As I have stated before, the custom knife community is a small world. You can have a impact.
Ron, as always, I appreciate you commenting on my opinons.
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!
First not all reviews are worthless. There are several very good writers that work for all the magazines.
Guys, as we all know if your not willing to take a stance then you get what you deserve.
If you have a problem with Bud Lang, write and tell him so. It does not good to just whine about it then not follow through.
If as Ron suggests its all about the dollar. Then use yours to vote. Dont buy the magazine(s), dont buy from the makers who you think are more show than go,etc. Speaking of the dollar, you realize you get about $400 for an article. Got a favorite maker, or someone who you think does excellent work. Write an article on them.
Ladies and Gentlemen, like it or not the dollar and politics affect custom knives. If your not happy with the way something is going. Write the magazines, cancel or dont renew your subscriptions, etc.
Several years ago I was an associate member of the Knifemakers Guild. I wrote the President at the time and several other board memebers and asked for their catalogs. I never got them. I figured if this is the way they treat an associate memember imagine the way they treat non or honorary members. So I quit. Did this turn the Guild around, no. However, I didnt have to bitch about the Guild anymore because it made no difference to me. Let me state now, that I think the Guild is starting to do a much better job of policing themselves.
There is no one regulatory body for custom knives. So if you dont like what is going on then you have to help fix it. I know I personally piss off people on a regular basis. Mostly, because I feel it necessary to tell someone when I think they are doing the custom knife community wrong.
There are well known makers who I have told to their face that I will never buy a knife from them because of their ethics or business practices. They are still making knives and are fairly successful. This is fine, I know that they are not getting any of my money, nor are any of their knives taking up space on my table at a show or on my web site.
Both the maker and I know, this has cost them sales. I enjoy knowing I have cost that maker money by losing them a sale.
By the same token, I will go out of my way to help a knifemaker who has integrity and is trying to provide their customers the best work they can. Even if I dont carry their knives, I will recommend them to customers who are looking for their particular type work.
As I have stated before, the custom knife community is a small world. You can have a impact.
Ron, as always, I appreciate you commenting on my opinons.
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!
I appreciate the comments & consensus. I thought I was being idealistic thinking that the publications should serve their customers (ie the knife buying public). Your feedback is well received however & hits the nail on the head. They are serving their customers. The realization is that their primary customers are the advertisers & makers rather than us. I'll still enjoy the pictures...
Perhaps we should start a new forum, a critical review of knives inc. fit & finish, design, materials & craftsmanship.
Enjoying the discussion almost as much as I enjoy my knives!
Drew
Perhaps we should start a new forum, a critical review of knives inc. fit & finish, design, materials & craftsmanship.
Enjoying the discussion almost as much as I enjoy my knives!
Drew
A really interesting topic . . . and one which essentially hinges on "individual tastes and perceptions". If there is one thing which I have learn't through knife making, knife exhibitions, knife guilds, magazines and forums, it is that one should never work on the assumption that your likes and dislikes will be the same as anyone else's. In an effort to accomodate the broader buying public the magazine editors unfortunately end up with watered down articles and reviews.
I write a report for a local hunting/shooting/fishing magazine on our annual knifemakers guild show. I am commissioned to do so by the magazine (not the guild) and write on what I see. As much as I try and be neutral it is tainted with my personal opinions. I have received phonecalls from irate guild members following some publications asking why I discriminate against them. One year, as a change, I wrote an article which systematically listed each and every knifemaker, with a comment on their work at the show. It was published, but the editor called and asked that I never write another article like that. It was downright boring!
We all see daily on the forums, and in the letters-to-the-editor columns, how touchy some folks can get when differences of opinion occur. Knife magazine editors might have the courage to rise above the average and write hard hitting, critical articles, but it might well be at the cost of readership and advertising, and therefore possibly the magazine itself. How many custom, or semi-production, makers would be prepared to submit their knives to each of the trade magazines for evaluation on the understanding that the knife will probably be destroyed (from a resale point of view) in the process. No knives, no reviews, no articles, no magazine?
The evaluation of knives is complicated by a number of factors, namely :
1. the huge variety of knife designs
2. the variety of mechanisms (in the case of folders)
3. the uses to which knives are put
4. the customers reason for purchase
5. the level of use of the customer (i.e. what is hard use?)
6. the customers view of quality (fit, finish, materials used)
7. the level of knowledge of customers
to name but a few.
The collectors market has blurred our perceptions of knives (primarily custom, but increasingly production as well) and this is why we can see so many "soft" reviews. The knives are never going to see an honest day's work, so the whole emphasis has shifted to aesthetic design, fit & finish and symmetry.
Who really cares if the blade is 55 Rockwell or 60 Rockwell?
Would you put a MT Dragonslayer to the blade drop test?
Would you put a Ron Lake interframe to the backlock test?
Would you clamp a Loveless blade for lateral movement testing?
Remember we have folks out there who buy Microtech DA SOCOM's and Mad Dog fighters and never take them out of the box. These are knives designed from scratch to be used! How does one review a knife such as that? What is the person, thinking of buying such a piece for investment purposes, looking for when he/she reads a review of the knife?
In our knifemakers guild we call on prospective entrants to submit 5 knives for evaluation, against a prescribed set of criteria (about 4 pages of points including grindlines, symmetry, fit & finish, etc). This is all very well, but it is the view of only two or three people (those who drew up the list). Knives which sometimes fail the evaluation are snapped up by buyers, and likewise knives which pass the evaluation are not sellers. Recently some forumites developed a test list involving knocking the blades to test lock strength, and dropping of knives to test blade strength, etc. These are good, with the benefit of being able to carefully measure each process (i.e. drop height, hammer weight, etc). But equally one has to factor in the finer points such as blade grinds, fit of handle, finishes, etc. One man's tactical is another man's crowbar. One man's fighter is another man's letter opener.
I guess it would be interesting to see a knife magazine develop a common "evaluation basis" for knives and put their review pieces through it. Drawing up that process could be interesting . . .
I've rambled on enough for now . . . keep the thread going, something practical and useable might come out of it.
Regards, HILTON
Thank you HILTON for a very lucid discussion of a not so simple area of the knife business.
Illuminating many of us forumites on all the issues involved means something really has come out of it. Awareness puts us in a better position to have a positive impact when/if the opportunity arises.
Illuminating many of us forumites on all the issues involved means something really has come out of it. Awareness puts us in a better position to have a positive impact when/if the opportunity arises.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 1998
- Messages
- 159
Having had a stint in high-tech marketing, you quickly learn how these reviews work.
Often you have a writer with a rather large ego. To appeal to this ego you need to frequently feed them, tell them how wonderful they write/think/live, give them free stuff, let them feel like they are on the "inside" of your organization
I'd say that most reviews are 50% actual performance or quality of the product and 50% of the relationship you have with the review person. I wrote a software product that won the "Best of Comdex" award and 30 other awards from all the big magazines the first year. It was a good product but there are many fantastic products. The press came from very careful marketing. Not a free for all money cannon, just very careful selection and placement and hand-holding.
Knife magazines are in existance for the advertisers, not for you the reader, although it feeds on itself. Bad reviews do not bring in ad revenue dollars. The $4 you pay at the newstand doesn't carry the magaine along, it is the $5k to $10k full page ads that you see, plus the scores of little $500-$1500 mini ads.
Outside of their ego, the publishers could care less if anyone bought their magazine, as long as they had the advertisers. But of course the advertisers won't advertise unless they see a large circulation, so you can see where it feeds on itself.
Most knife reviews in the mags should be called something like "First Look" with lots of close up pictures and specifications. This would probably go a long way towards giving actual factual information on the knives. If I hear one more story about "I was sea-kiyaking with my super-steel ATS34 model by BigMaker", I'm going to get barf.
We aren't alone in these fluff pieces, pick up any gun magazine too. Guns and especially knives are very niche verticle markets, they can't afford to anger advertisers who routinely fund a pecentage of their magazine every month through ad revenue.
It is easy to be jaded when you follow knives and earnestly as many of us do here, but I suspect that there is a large population out there that pretty much live by the magazines only and base all their buying decisions on that alone. At least this is what the magazines claim and the advertisers want to think.
--Doug
Often you have a writer with a rather large ego. To appeal to this ego you need to frequently feed them, tell them how wonderful they write/think/live, give them free stuff, let them feel like they are on the "inside" of your organization
I'd say that most reviews are 50% actual performance or quality of the product and 50% of the relationship you have with the review person. I wrote a software product that won the "Best of Comdex" award and 30 other awards from all the big magazines the first year. It was a good product but there are many fantastic products. The press came from very careful marketing. Not a free for all money cannon, just very careful selection and placement and hand-holding.
Knife magazines are in existance for the advertisers, not for you the reader, although it feeds on itself. Bad reviews do not bring in ad revenue dollars. The $4 you pay at the newstand doesn't carry the magaine along, it is the $5k to $10k full page ads that you see, plus the scores of little $500-$1500 mini ads.
Outside of their ego, the publishers could care less if anyone bought their magazine, as long as they had the advertisers. But of course the advertisers won't advertise unless they see a large circulation, so you can see where it feeds on itself.
Most knife reviews in the mags should be called something like "First Look" with lots of close up pictures and specifications. This would probably go a long way towards giving actual factual information on the knives. If I hear one more story about "I was sea-kiyaking with my super-steel ATS34 model by BigMaker", I'm going to get barf.
We aren't alone in these fluff pieces, pick up any gun magazine too. Guns and especially knives are very niche verticle markets, they can't afford to anger advertisers who routinely fund a pecentage of their magazine every month through ad revenue.
It is easy to be jaded when you follow knives and earnestly as many of us do here, but I suspect that there is a large population out there that pretty much live by the magazines only and base all their buying decisions on that alone. At least this is what the magazines claim and the advertisers want to think.
--Doug
- Joined
- Feb 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,959
This brings up an ancillary question. Just what are "First Rate Credintials?" Does being a former Spec Ops soldier give you the ability to accurately review the good and bad points of any given knife? Do Navy SEALS, Force Recon, Special Forces, SAS (etc.) give you some deeper understanding of what makes the difference between a good knive and a great knife? (or a bad knife) If so, where do I apply for the job?
I think that the perfect reviewer is part modern warrior, part engineer, part knifesmith and part writer! (Of course this describes myself to a tee, but that's not the point.)
The point is, what do YOU think makes for a good reviewer? Who out there fits the bill by your definition?
------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
I think that the perfect reviewer is part modern warrior, part engineer, part knifesmith and part writer! (Of course this describes myself to a tee, but that's not the point.)
The point is, what do YOU think makes for a good reviewer? Who out there fits the bill by your definition?
------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
Ken, I think the real issue does not revolve around the "qualifications" of the author/writer, but rather whether the magazine would actually publish a negative article on a particular product. Personally I think you are right on the button, but advertisers and manufacturers do not take kindly to bad publicity and will usually pull their financial backing, regardless of the status of the author. The knifemaking industry is relatively small and exclusive, and magazine editors cannot afford to loose revenue from advertisers or manufacturers.
I would venture so far as to say that an "over qualified" reviewer might be his/her own worst enemy, simply because they know too much. A manufacturer of tactical knives would probably cringe at the thought that a SpecOps member was going to test their knife. To make real money out of that model knife the manufacturer hopes to sell thousands to people who will never expose it to primary use, so why run the risk of exposing weaknesses, and spoil all the marketing hype!
I think we also need to remember that the public "read what they want to hear" (if you understand what I mean). People are happy to be told the relative merits of certain blade grinds, hardnesses, handle shapes, etc, without actually ever putting them to the test. It makes for good conversations around the diningroom table.
If one ever doubts this try doing Rockwell tests on factory knives and see how many fail to reach the advertised mark (a high percentage), then try on semi-production knives and you will get a bigger shock, finally try the custom knives and you will be amazed! I'd like to run a couple of those deep etch, high contrast damascus knife blades you see on the glossy colour pages to see if they even register on the Rockwell scale?! If this is not sufficient go into the processes used for heat treatment (in relation to those specified by the steel manufacturer). P.S. Putting a blade into the fridge after heat treating is not considered sub-zero quenching!
Although this may be seen as false advertising it does not matter, because in the greater scheme of things those that really want a knife meeting certain specifications will ensure that they get them (that's what got the modern custom knifemaking revolution going) and those that don't are none the wiser.
Hey! I write for some of these guys . . why am I saying this! Oops, way to wordy again . . .
Regards, HILTON
I guess this offers an interesting role for forums such as this in years to come . . . if the forums can remain neutral and resist the influence of advertisers and manufacturers with vested interests they could become the source of information for those seeking hard hitting advice. Mind you . . . looking around, maybe they have become that already!
All we then need to do is fine tune concensus on a test programme for knives (i.e. one of each of tactical, hunting, survival, linerlocks, backlocks, multitools, etc) and run with it. It seems we already have a whole lot of folks out there who are prepared to be the testers.
We're getting there.
Regards, HILTON
All we then need to do is fine tune concensus on a test programme for knives (i.e. one of each of tactical, hunting, survival, linerlocks, backlocks, multitools, etc) and run with it. It seems we already have a whole lot of folks out there who are prepared to be the testers.
We're getting there.
Regards, HILTON
Well HiltonP did an excellent job of laying out all those reasons I didn't want to get into.
Especially the business aspect.
When I said the reviews were worthless I did not mean that the writers were unknowledgable, but they are restricted in what they can write.
Gun mags are the same way, and so are car mags.
His point about writing what people want to read is right on. Because they are writing about a car or gun that lots of people already own or identify with. And they don't want to read that that extension of themselves is not what they believe it to be. They want confirmation. And perhaps some modicum of information so they talk about it.
------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight
Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
Especially the business aspect.
When I said the reviews were worthless I did not mean that the writers were unknowledgable, but they are restricted in what they can write.
Gun mags are the same way, and so are car mags.
His point about writing what people want to read is right on. Because they are writing about a car or gun that lots of people already own or identify with. And they don't want to read that that extension of themselves is not what they believe it to be. They want confirmation. And perhaps some modicum of information so they talk about it.
------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight
Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
I still like buying knife magazines for its pictures (I can't read the forum in my PC on the bus, can't I?) and ads. However, ever since I became a member of BF I have learned to treat the magazine articles as just an opinion of one person. Like most of you, I value the input given by forumites as more honest, thorough and without much vested interest.
I believe that the Internet is the future for those seeking greater information and knowledge. But I'm not that sure that the Internet will replace print media -- all have their particular roles to play.
I would like to see, though, print magazines putting up their own complimentary online publication like what the major news dailies and magazines (such as Popular Science at www.popsci.com [?] ) are doing. Maybe the various gun and knives magazines can follow this direction.
And to follow Les's suggestion, I'm gonna forward this thread to Mr. Dick at TK magazine at tacticalknives@tdn.com. I hope y'all won't mind.
I believe that the Internet is the future for those seeking greater information and knowledge. But I'm not that sure that the Internet will replace print media -- all have their particular roles to play.
I would like to see, though, print magazines putting up their own complimentary online publication like what the major news dailies and magazines (such as Popular Science at www.popsci.com [?] ) are doing. Maybe the various gun and knives magazines can follow this direction.
And to follow Les's suggestion, I'm gonna forward this thread to Mr. Dick at TK magazine at tacticalknives@tdn.com. I hope y'all won't mind.
Folks -- in response to the thread above here are the emails I received from Mr. Dick of TK.
----------
From: Steven Dick[SMTP:tacticalknives@tdn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:09 PM
To: 43a- SM Jessan
Subject: Re: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
I think the bottom line is all three magazines would have to adopt the same
policy or the knifemakers would support one and not the other two. I also don't think this is going to happen because this is a competitive business like any other.
I've suggested we come up with a way of offering paid web subscriptions to
TK but have been it's too expensive at the present.
Thanks for reading TK,
Steven Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: 43a- SM Jessan <ciidvo@mozcom.com>
To: 'Steven Dick' <tacticalknives@tdn.com>
Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
>Steven,
>
>Hello! I wasn't expecting a response from you -- but I'm sure glad you did!
I would like to say upfront that I really like Tactical Knives and how you manage the magazine. In fact, I have cut my subscription with gun magazines and buy all the TK I can find -- not a small feat here in the Philippines where knife publications are a rarity.
>
>I agree with most of the posts made in the forum. I read and understand your position on not thrashing bad knives in your review. But don't you think this is depriving your readers the right to a balanced and objective
review of knives? Also, as your magazine come out only bi-monthly, your limited reviews of the various knives available would give the reading knife enthusiasts the impression that those good knives you do not yet review are
bad.
>
>I repeat my suggestion that TK, and all Harris mags for that matter, come up with an online publication to compliment your print magazine. Just like the major newspapers do, and some progressive computer and trade magazines (like Popular Science).
>
>Last, but not the least, I would like to invite you to be a member of http://www.BladeForums.com. Here you will find some of the industry manufacturers (like Spyderco, REKAT, EDI, Camillus, Outdoor Edge, etc.), online knife dealers, and, more importantly, very knowledgeable knife enthusiasts. Some of your writers are even members like Anthony Lombardo. Dexter Ewing of KI is also one of the moderators.
>
>I think your participation as one of the industry's most influential person will really be welcome.
>
>Thanks and more power to TK!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jessan, aka Titan at BladeForums.com and KnifeForums.com
>
>PS
>
>Lately I've been also buying American Handgunner magazine again because of
the awesome pictures taken by Ichiro Nagawa of knives in one of their columns. Do you think Weyer of Toledo can improve the color sharpness of their pictures?
>
>----------
>From: Steven Dick[SMTP:tacticalknives@tdn.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:35 AM
>To: Jessan
>Subject: Re: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
>
>Thanks, Jessan,
>Some good point made and some bad. I really get the feeling most web guys
>think only reviews that trash knives are valid. As for articles on
>sea-kayaking making one writer sick, I'm just doing my best to actually
test
>knives under real field conditions.
> Like I said in my column a couple of issue back I usually send the bad
>knives back and ask for a replacement. 9 times out of 10 I never hear from
>the maker again.
>
>Steven Dick
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jessan <ciidvo@mozcom.com>
>To: tacticalknives@tdn.com <tacticalknives@tdn.com>
>Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:36 PM
>Subject: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
>
>
>>I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:
>http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000192.html
>
----------
From: Steven Dick[SMTP:tacticalknives@tdn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:09 PM
To: 43a- SM Jessan
Subject: Re: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
I think the bottom line is all three magazines would have to adopt the same
policy or the knifemakers would support one and not the other two. I also don't think this is going to happen because this is a competitive business like any other.
I've suggested we come up with a way of offering paid web subscriptions to
TK but have been it's too expensive at the present.
Thanks for reading TK,
Steven Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: 43a- SM Jessan <ciidvo@mozcom.com>
To: 'Steven Dick' <tacticalknives@tdn.com>
Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
>Steven,
>
>Hello! I wasn't expecting a response from you -- but I'm sure glad you did!
I would like to say upfront that I really like Tactical Knives and how you manage the magazine. In fact, I have cut my subscription with gun magazines and buy all the TK I can find -- not a small feat here in the Philippines where knife publications are a rarity.
>
>I agree with most of the posts made in the forum. I read and understand your position on not thrashing bad knives in your review. But don't you think this is depriving your readers the right to a balanced and objective
review of knives? Also, as your magazine come out only bi-monthly, your limited reviews of the various knives available would give the reading knife enthusiasts the impression that those good knives you do not yet review are
bad.
>
>I repeat my suggestion that TK, and all Harris mags for that matter, come up with an online publication to compliment your print magazine. Just like the major newspapers do, and some progressive computer and trade magazines (like Popular Science).
>
>Last, but not the least, I would like to invite you to be a member of http://www.BladeForums.com. Here you will find some of the industry manufacturers (like Spyderco, REKAT, EDI, Camillus, Outdoor Edge, etc.), online knife dealers, and, more importantly, very knowledgeable knife enthusiasts. Some of your writers are even members like Anthony Lombardo. Dexter Ewing of KI is also one of the moderators.
>
>I think your participation as one of the industry's most influential person will really be welcome.
>
>Thanks and more power to TK!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jessan, aka Titan at BladeForums.com and KnifeForums.com
>
>PS
>
>Lately I've been also buying American Handgunner magazine again because of
the awesome pictures taken by Ichiro Nagawa of knives in one of their columns. Do you think Weyer of Toledo can improve the color sharpness of their pictures?
>
>----------
>From: Steven Dick[SMTP:tacticalknives@tdn.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:35 AM
>To: Jessan
>Subject: Re: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
>
>Thanks, Jessan,
>Some good point made and some bad. I really get the feeling most web guys
>think only reviews that trash knives are valid. As for articles on
>sea-kayaking making one writer sick, I'm just doing my best to actually
test
>knives under real field conditions.
> Like I said in my column a couple of issue back I usually send the bad
>knives back and ask for a replacement. 9 times out of 10 I never hear from
>the maker again.
>
>Steven Dick
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jessan <ciidvo@mozcom.com>
>To: tacticalknives@tdn.com <tacticalknives@tdn.com>
>Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:36 PM
>Subject: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (knives that is)
>
>
>>I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:
>http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000192.html
>