THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

[Gaston444]

Hey Gaston,

Is this your Lile Mission knife? The description sounds like your knife.

Yes it is.

I tried out both an old (oop) $99 United Cutlery (Taiwan made) and a $39 Master Cutlery (Chinese made, without sheath so cheaper), and I found they were both noticeably better made than the Lile, in almost every respect... They are both in 420J, and the edge holding is nothing short of great on both (no rolling or chipping tendency at all while chopping), barely behind in any way to the Lile's D-2 (which required a micro-bevel to avoid chipping, while the 420J essentially didn't).

The cheapos are both slightly thinner stock (0.23" vs 0.25" on the Lile) but the MC is definitely the strongest, heaviest bladed and burliest of them all overall (0.045" edge), while the UC has the thinner Lile-matching geometry of 0.030", and a more slender point (the UC feels noticeably lighter than the MC, maybe as much as 15 vs 18 ounces, the Lile being around 17). My biggest peeve with the MC was that it had a thinner handle diameter, but this was turned on its head when I realized it has a broader rope tube-end "lip" that allowed wrapping 550 cord over the existing cord (both original wrappings were comparable to Lile in tightness, but UC used a fuzzier lower quality rope that happens to grip slightly better).

Blade surface finish and grinding precision was far, far greater on these cheap knives than on the Lile (even the paint is better than what was originally on my all black Lile, despite the lack of sandblasting for grip).

The Lile dual grinder makes these "waves" as it goes over the teeth, my Sly II having had this all over (before the REK re-grind), even up and into the clip notches(!) (The Mission only near the plunge line, so much better...): The Liles are basically machine-made, while the cheapos are actually hand-made to a quite high standard: Edges on the cheapos are very consistent in thickness (but MC is too thick at 0.045"), while Lile edges (0.030" on the Mission and 0.042" on the Sly II) varied up-down and caused a lot of trouble sharpening, even on the Mission...

The cheapos teeth were of course not dipped, but REK dipped the split UC teeth for me (while adding a magnificient 18 dps edge) while I dipped the split MC teeth myself with a X-coarse dia-sharp (surprisingly easy to do just freehand).

The final nail in the coffin was the lie spread about the UCs that they have inadequate construction (a screw-in thin rat tail is shown in at least one article, and I posted a comment there that this was demonstrably not a UC blade shown): The UC has in reality a 0.23" thick full tube-width tang of about an inch long, secured with a pouring of shock-proof two part resin, just like many customs, including the Liles which are also similarly resin-locked(!)... Maybe the Liles have a more mechanically secure lock-up within the poured resin, as the UC might be purely dependent on resin adhesion to smooth inner tube surfaces, but the Mission guard is short and un-lugged, and the guard leverage is the main danger of causing the tube to break the resin's adhesion on impact: The cross piece can act as a separation lever, but the Mission's guard does not have the right shape or leverage to do this, so for all practical purposes the UC is essentially indestructible... Even if it moved, a running of crazy glue would fix it for at least 500 chops.

The MC has a metal piece surrounding a similar tang, and this introduces tolerance issues: My MC was probably a steal because this tang assembly rattled slightly, but I poured thin crazy glue into the tang, and it hasn't rattled in 500 chops: Even if the glue cracks, it only has to stay in place, and so far no glue residue is falling out... The MC blade is stronger than either of the others, but both copies lose a bit of point mass by having taller clip grinds: This is my only dislike vs the Lile: Other than that they are simply better in every way, right down to the MC buttcap being the most crisply machined, but none are interchangeable to one another, unfortunately.

So with all that, I kept my modded Lile sheath (for the UC, which fits it far better, owing the 0.23" stock, than the Lile ever did) and decided I'd be better off selling the 20X dearer knife...

It is unclear to me if the cheapo handle tubes are steel (Lile is), but the UC does feel much lighter overall than the MC. With the resin acting as a buffer, it probably doesn't matter.

UC vs Lile:

MC(left) vs UC

MC vs UC

UC vs Lile

Gaston

 

[TAH]

I tried out both an old (oop) $99 United Cutlery (Taiwan made) and a $39 Master Cutlery (Chinese made, without sheath so cheaper), and I found they were both noticeably better made than the Lile, in almost every respect...

Try to rest in peace, Mr. Lile.

 

[BladeScout]

.....no words.

 

[berzerker]

“Blade” mag for January ‘18 has series of articles on the knives from Rambo movies, including those of Jimmy Lile.

 

[Gaston444]

.....no words.

Why? Are you disputing the pictures show the United Cutlery is clearly better finished, by hand, than the Lile is with a really crude machine, followed by an incredibly rough sandblasting?

Furthermore, the left side of the Lile does look like poured concrete, with the center slot for the sawteeth cut off-center, the off-centering being "fixed" by adding a stepped bevel to the left side of the teeth... At least United left their off-centering mistake alone, resulting in crisper teeth edges, now that REK has angled them.

And the Mission was the better of the two Liles I owned: The Sly II had waves all over the blade, matching the sawback...

Probably the two tone versions are better finished, but some of the post dots two-tone I saw also had minor flaws.

But I was willing to overlook the poor finish due to the very good performance of the design (at a light weight), until it gradually emerged that D-2 was probably not the best steel choice for a chopper...: This was the first instance of chipping I encountered, and what followed was rather interesting:

Both the Lile D-2 and the Voorhis 5160 obviously could not take reliably 15 dps: I opened on both the angle to around 17 dps and added a 20 dps micro-bevel: Despite looking worse, the Voorhis appeared to settle, but the Lile chipped again. Again this is not science, but my impression was that the Lile definitely remained more delicate.

Today I tested the United Cutlery at -25 degree C with an 18 dps REK edge and no significant micro-bevel: After 120 hits the 420J steel had almost no detectable loss of phonebook paper cutting ability, almost as good as my INFI Battlesaw. However the Battlesaw, despite showing no loss of edge apex finesse, showed quite visible damage from lateral misalignment. Since the Battlesaw had an extremely thin 15 dps convexed edge, it was not really a comparable geometry, but I would say the United is definitely good, and the Lile chipped in Summer weather...

Interestingly the GSO-10 in CPM-3V showed a lot less micro-rolling than it did in Summer temperatures... It performed better. All the knives had been left outside for hours to really soak in the -25 C. The biggest surprise was that the $39 Master Cutlery performed like crap: Apparently Chinese 420J is quite some world removed from Taiwan 420J... But I did notice before, on other knives, that geometry thinness protects the edge while chopping (UC was a lot thinner edged than the MC), because a thinner geometry is more deeply "secured" in the wood when chopping. So not quite a level comparison: Unlike my previous test, the GSO-10 did better than the MC, but still micro rolled a tiny amount.

There is an interesting torture test of an UC First Blood on youtube, but I cannot find it easily for some reason: The UC is secured by a plug of poured resin (just like the Cox was), but, like the Cox initially, the UC's tube inside is smooth, which allows it to unstick itself from the resin plug if the guard is struck and acts like a separation lever (this happened on the Cox, and I fixed it by gouging/roughing the inside of the tube and pouring a new resin plug).

Once unseated, neither the plug or tube will move further, but the guard will now rattle: In the youtube test, the guy was impressed that despite the guard rattle appearing immediately (from striking the guard with his baton of course: That guy was a really dedicated batoner) the knife stayed together, did not loosen further, and went on to perform a huge amount of very hard wood batoning with no damage to the blade, and no further separation. He was really impressed by the blade's inherent quality, with small sea of hard-to-split logs laying waste behind him.

I'm not saying the Lile would have done worse, but it certainly would not hold its edge better (my Lile Sly II in 440C became awful after slightly thinning to Randall-like 0.020" values, hard to say why this happened), and the D-2 has a propensity to chip that have yet to see in 420J, even on the much inferior Master Cutlery 420.

Bottom line is there is no way the Liles are significantly better than the United Cutlery, and I would actually say that without re-selling as a lucrative option, I would absolutely choose the UC over the Lile, especially if my life depended on it... I know it is hard to believe, but then you hardly ever hear of the originals being used and tested over several years do you?

Gaston

 

[robgmn]

For what you may encounter riding a bike through the park, your testing goes beyond OCD.
With 100% sincerity, have you ever been tested or diagnosed "on the spectrum"?

 

[BladeScout]

Why? Are you disputing the pictures show the United Cutlery is clearly better finished, by hand, than the Lile is with a really crude machine, followed by an incredibly rough sandblasting?

Furthermore, the left side of the Lile does look like poured concrete, with the center slot for the sawteeth cut off-center, the off-centering being "fixed" by adding a stepped bevel to the left side of the teeth... At least United left their off-centering mistake alone, resulting in crisper teeth edges, now that REK has angled them.

And the Mission was the better of the two Liles I owned: The Sly II had waves all over the blade, matching the sawback...

Probably the two tone versions are better finished, but some of the post dots two-tone I saw also had minor flaws.

But I was willing to overlook the poor finish due to the very good performance of the design (at a light weight), until it gradually emerged that D-2 was probably not the best steel choice for a chopper...: This was the first instance of chipping I encountered, and what followed was rather interesting:

Both the Lile D-2 and the Voorhis 5160 obviously could not take reliably 15 dps: I opened on both the angle to around 17 dps and added a 20 dps micro-bevel: Despite looking worse, the Voorhis appeared to settle, but the Lile chipped again. Again this is not science, but my impression was that the Lile definitely remained more delicate.

Today I tested the United Cutlery at -25 degree C with an 18 dps REK edge and no significant micro-bevel: After 120 hits the 420J steel had almost no detectable loss of phonebook paper cutting ability, almost as good as my INFI Battlesaw. However the Battlesaw, despite showing no loss of edge apex finesse, showed quite visible damage from lateral misalignment. Since the Battlesaw had an extremely thin 15 dps convexed edge, it was not really a comparable geometry, but I would say the United is definitely good, and the Lile chipped in Summer weather...

Interestingly the GSO-10 in CPM-3V showed a lot less micro-rolling than it did in Summer temperatures... It performed better. All the knives had been left outside for hours to really soak in the -25 C. The biggest surprise was that the $39 Master Cutlery performed like crap: Apparently Chinese 420J is quite some world removed from Taiwan 420J... But I did notice before, on other knives, that geometry thinness protects the edge while chopping (UC was a lot thinner edged than the MC), because a thinner geometry is more deeply "secured" in the wood when chopping. So not quite a level comparison: Unlike my previous test, the GSO-10 did better than the MC, but still micro rolled a tiny amount.

There is an interesting torture test of an UC First Blood on youtube, but I cannot find it easily for some reason: The UC is secured by a plug of poured resin (just like the Cox was), but, like the Cox initially, the UC's tube inside is smooth, which allows it to unstick itself from the resin plug if the guard is struck and acts like a separation lever (this happened on the Cox, and I fixed it by gouging/roughing the inside of the tube and pouring a new resin plug).

Once unseated, neither the plug or tube will move further, but the guard will now rattle: In the youtube test, the guy was impressed that despite the guard rattle appearing immediately (from striking the guard with his baton of course: That guy was a really dedicated batoner) the knife stayed together, did not loosen further, and went on to perform a huge amount of very hard wood batoning with no damage to the blade, and no further separation. He was really impressed by the blade's inherent quality, with small sea of hard-to-split logs laying waste behind him.

I'm not saying the Lile would have done worse, but it certainly would not hold its edge better (my Lile Sly II in 440C became awful after slightly thinning to Randall-like 0.020" values, hard to say why this happened), and the D-2 has a propensity to chip that have yet to see in 420J, even on the much inferior Master Cutlery 420.

Bottom line is there is no way the Liles are significantly better than the United Cutlery, and I would actually say that without re-selling as a lucrative option, I would absolutely choose the UC over the Lile, especially if my life depended on it... I know it is hard to believe, but then you hardly ever hear of the originals being used and tested over several years do you?

Gaston

tl;dr

Wow..., just wow.

That tirade triggered by me writing merely:

.....no words.

You seem to be on some sort of strange crusade.

That you are alone with your POV and that many experienced knifemakers and others in-the-know (not neccesarily me) dont agree with your postings - that doesnt tell you anything?

Needless to say, Id imagine few agree with you on Lile knives.

 

[Gaston444]

tl;dr

Wow..., just wow.

That tirade triggered by me writing merely:



You seem to be on some sort of strange crusade.

That you are alone with your POV and that many experienced knifemakers and others in-the-know (not neccesarily me) dont agree with your postings - that doesnt tell you anything?

Needless to say, Id imagine few agree with you on Lile knives.

So let me sum it up:

-I guessed correctly your slant from two words, neither of which said you owned the knives discussed, in effect ignoring the photographic evidence I provided.
-Appeal to group authority (of whom some, perhaps most -as you imply-, think these knives are not for "real" use, yet still post on this thread).
-(The other guy): Personal attacks.

And (my favourite, not specifically concerning you): Predictable unhappiness to learn a few unexpected things. Such as the reason why resin plug secured hollow handles will rattle their guards, without getting any closer to failing.

The reason you are unhappy about learning things is that you think learning is about ingesting the expected. It is, once congealed by age, an incurable perception.

Gaston

 

[ilten]

So, do you think you will learn at some point, that it is stupid to put a razor thin edge on a tool you intend to hack wood with?

 

[robgmn]

So, do you think you will learn at some point, that it is stupid to put a razor thin edge on a tool you intend to hack wood with?

I sharpened a double bit axe to 18 degrees inclusive.
Piece of junk broke on the first swing.
'Guess they don't make them like they used to...

 

[Cursum Perficio]

The reason you are unhappy about learning things is that you think learning is about ingesting the expected. It is, once congealed by age, an incurable perception.

Gaston

Do you mean that if one has a perception of something based on previous input, then one should be ready to see that perception as misleading or incorrect when a wide array of later input consistently indicates that it is indeed wrong?

 

[JD Mandrell]

Working on dressing up my 6th version Buckmaster 184 with original accessories.

Dogpound77 set me up with 2 small Buck pouches,and I'm currently waiting on a Silva Type 9 compass to arrive in the mail.

 

[Luke Smart]

I have lusted over the 184 since the 80s. Great looking knife.

 

[bearcut]

On a different subject; does anyone know if newt martin is back to making knives? Someone wants to buy my mce2 but I dont want to sell it unless I know that I can get another one later.

 

[JD Mandrell]

On a different subject; does anyone know if newt martin is back to making knives? Someone wants to buy my mce2 but I dont want to sell it unless I know that I can get another one later.

I highly doubt it, he was just back in the hospital in the last few weeks for a time.

 

[bearcut]

Thanks, I was wondering how he is doing.
I hope he fully recovers.
In the meantime, I will keep my knife because there is really nothing else like it.

 

[JD Mandrell]

Thanks, I was wondering how he is doing.
I hope he fully recovers.
In the meantime, I will keep my knife because there is really nothing else like it.

Latest update posted yesterday, he's as tough as his knives.

 

[NewBlades]

Hope he feels better soon.

 

[irbailey]

Just finished another one....

This was inspired by Robert Parrish (handle), Randall (blade & sheath) and Lile (guard & cap)

There's more pictures over on Custom & Handmade.

Ian.

 

[BladeScout]