The Ka-Bar combat knife vs the BK7

james terrio said:
Not surprisingly, Ethan nailed it. Stress risers are your worst enemy when designing pretty much anything. If those blades had radiused shoulders at the tang/ricasso junction and were fully hardened all the way through the tang, they'd be a lot stronger. Having said that, reports of them breaking off at the tang are still remarkably rare, considering the bazillions that have been made, used and abused.

As for the sharpened, concave clip... it's a fighting knife. There's simply no better design than that for rapidly letting the insides out of a bad guy.

I agree with Granite's handle-indexing comments... one should never have to think twice about where one's edge is, and the knife should not be liable to twist in one's hand. That's a serious flaw on the 1219. It's definitely not a problem on the BK-7.

There's no question that the BK-7 is a far sturdier and ultimately more versatile blade.
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There's no question that the BK-7 is a far sturdier and ultimately more versatile blade [end quote] Depends on what you man by "versatile." If you mean batoning, feathering wood for fires, carving -- all the camp stuff, then sure. But if you include sticking a knife in an enemy during war then the KaBar is superior, especially in the classic thrust into the stomach and ripping upward. I doubt that the BK7 could do that, but the KaBar was built for it, especially note the double edge toward the tip -- which you sort of say up above -- so what do you mean by "versatile"?

I'm guessing you mean camping type chores. Ethan Becker defined the soldier as a camper with an attitude and the BK7 definitely suits that sort of soldier better than the the KaBar -- at least the first part of the equation. When we move onto the "attitude," especially in the case of the Marines, the KaBar is the better knife to have in my opinion.

Lawrence
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Lawrence Helm said:
Depends on what you man by "versatile." If you mean batoning, feathering wood for fires, carving -- all the camp stuff, then sure. But if you include sticking a knife in an enemy during war then the KaBar is superior, especially in the classic thrust into the stomach and ripping upward. I doubt that the BK7 could do that, but the KaBar was built for it, especially note the double edge toward the tip -- which you sort of say up above -- so what do you mean by "versatile"?

I'm guessing you mean camping type chores. Ethan Becker defined the soldier as a camper with an attitude and the BK7 definitely suits that sort of soldier better than the the KaBar -- at least the first part of the equation. When we move onto the "attitude," especially in the case of the Marines, the KaBar is the better knife to have in my opinion.

Lawrence
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Not that I would know from personal experience, but I would bet most soldiers do waaaaaay more camping chores than enemy-gutting, and they'll use whatever knife is at hand at the time for either. And you can sharpen the clip on the BK7 without a lot of fanfare if it suits you.
 
Mrknot said:
I have owned and loved my Vietnam-era Camillus "Kabar" for well over 20 years now. For a long, long time, it was my go-to woods/everything knife. When the leather washers started to fall apart, a little epoxy filler, and they were good as new...
Since I got my 7, I have retired the old USN MkII to a place of honor. My only real "safe queen" now.
2.5oz difference between sheathed knives, I'll probably never notice. The ability to do whatever the heck I want to do without fear of breaking the knife: priceless.
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I have a BK7 as well. Because of this discussion I've pulled them out several times and have them sitting on my desk at the moment. I think you are absolutely right in terms of strength. The BK7 is simply more bullish. Do I need "bullish" on my hikes? But it is nice to have if I do need it. I have just the one full-sized USMC KaBar. It is in excellent condition and if I decide to start using a full-sized KaBar for hikes I'll probably buy another -- one without the sharpened back-edge apparently -- which I don't really need for hikes. I also have the some smaller 5 1/2 inch KaBar replicas that seem excellent for hiking when I am most worried about weight. In the case of these little guys the advantage is much more than 2.5 ounces -- still they are probably all I "need" for hiking.

I don't feel very articulate about this at the moment but it probably boils down to "need" and "want" when it comes to hiking. I doubt that I "need" anything more than the little USMC fighting knife 5 1/2 inch replicas which weigh 9 1/2 ounces with their leather sheaths. But I do appreciate knives. You can see that if you go to the gear section of my photo site. And to make the point more strongly, if I don't "need" a BK7 I "don't need" a BK9 even more:



And I might add that I am buying custom scales to go with the leather sheaths for these Becker knives I don't really need. ;)

Lawrence
 
Something to think about: where would soldiers encounter the need to baton through a 5" tree? They were cutting ropes, opening cans and boxes, digging holes, and occasionally they might stab someone. Any branches they might cut would be much smaller, and they would use other tools (saws and the shovel thing they used.

We put knives through ridiculous things that people working smart use tools better make for the job. So when the YouTube 'knife gurus' beat the crap out them, they will eventually make a stick tang fail.

The BK7 is a better all purpose version of the old version. But you see a more varied group of buyers, many using them much harder than the servicemen would when it was general issue. Of course it will take a harder beating, but even diehard Beckerheads don't use their BK7 as hard as KABAR destruction test youtubers do to breat a KABAR.

I have been using a WWII MKII hard for 25 years. It is still going strong, an I imagine it saw much harder use prior to me. The MKII or its other names are still a serious heavy duty blade. The BK7 is also the same thing: a serious work knife. And they both still sell. They are both amazing in their own right.

(Sorry Ethan for the next thing I say) Of the two, I prefer the KABAR for most things. The size is more manageable for fine tasks. When I need a thicker blade, I use a BK10 instead of abusing my baby!
 
daizee said:
Not that I would know from personal experience, but I would bet most soldiers do waaaaaay more camping chores than enemy-gutting, and they'll use whatever knife is at hand at the time for either. And you can sharpen the clip on the BK7 without a lot of fanfare if it suits you.
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You're right. And they do (or used to do) way more marching than shooting, but of course they need their rifles for the relatively rare times there is an enemy to shoot. The same sort of thing would govern the Marines' choice of a bladed "weapon." It may be used for other things most often but its primary purpose, as with the rifle, is as a weapon.

I just looked at the clip on my BK7. It is a thicker section than I'd want to try and sharpen. As to the KaBar, I don't have a full-sized version without a sharpened clip so I can't compare them.

When first started in these discussions I assumed that since the BK7 was designed as a replacement for the old USMC KaBar that it had some sort of acceptance with the USMC, maybe not officially but permissively. I mentioned when I was scheduled to be sent to Korea during the Korean war I asked about knives and was told the Bayonet was good enough but I could take my own if I liked. At the time I took a Case hunting knife. I thought maybe the BK7 was being treated in the same fashion, but apparently not.

In another discussion about the KaBar still being in the Marine Corps inventory it seems that Ontario is now making the KaBars used by the Marines and from what I read about the Ontarior KaBar it is a very rough approximation. Also, I can't tell who these knives are used by -- maybe it is a matter of the mission or the MOS.

So while the BK-7 might be better tailored to match the capabilities of the KaBar it might be a personal thing for a knife-knowledgeable Marine to do on his own, and then he might want to choose the BK10 instead. The clip on the BK10 would be much easier to sharpen. If I were 62 years younger, back in the Marines and given the same choice I was given during the Korean War I might very well select the BK-10 -- and sharpen the clip. ;)

Lawrence
 
Lawrence Helm said:
Hmm. Not quite sure what you mean. I could pick up my Ka-Bar in pitch dark and it would index perfectly in my hand. I have a medium sized hand and never hold it so near the pommel that I can't feel the guard. Granted the guard is the same front and back, but the blade is weighted toward the front. You can tell just by the feel that you have the blade facing toward the front.

Question for Rural Central Texas. My Ka-Bar is undoubtedly a replica but it has a sharpened back tip. Did the sharpened back-tip entitle it to a different identity number? It doesn't look like you can buy a Ka-Bar like this today.

Lawrence
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I may be wrong on ALL the details, BUT, when Kabar came out with the first reproductions in the 70s, I BELIEVE the clip was sharpened. At some point, probably due to some legal eagle BS or due to trying to be able to sell the knives where double-edged blades or either illegal to carry in public (e.g., Texas) or where even possession of double-edged knives is illegal (e.g., Pennsylvania), Kabar dropped the sharpened clip. In some states, even as little as 1/2 inch of sharpened spine makes the knife fall into the "dirk, dagger, poniard" category.

The 1217 has been the model number for the 1219C2 replica since the 70s. Why did they not give it the model number of 1219? I don't know. They gave the Army version model number 1219. I've asked and have never received an answer. :D
 
zzyzzogeton said:
I may be wrong on ALL the details, BUT, when Kabar came out with the first reproductions in the 70s, I BELIEVE the clip was sharpened. At some point, probably due to some legal eagle BS or due to trying to be able to sell the knives where double-edged blades or either illegal to carry in public (e.g., Texas) or where even possession of double-edged knives is illegal (e.g., Pennsylvania), Kabar dropped the sharpened clip. In some states, even as little as 1/2 inch of sharpened spine makes the knife fall into the "dirk, dagger, poniard" category.

The 1217 has been the model number for the 1219C2 replica since the 70s. Why did they not give it the model number of 1219? I don't know. They gave the Army version model number 1219. I've asked and have never received an answer. :D
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Central Rural Texas,

Thanks. Good to know. Now I have to wonder if I'm legal in California. I think I am. California has strict gun control laws but isn't as strict regarding knives. I read one analysis someplace where all the laws this non-lawyer could find were quoted and he could not find a law restricting the length of a folding knife. It is apparently an urban & rural myth that the restriction is 3.5 inches. He advised not putting that to the test because if the cop looking at your knife thought there was a law he could still cause you a lot of inconvenience and you might lose your knife. He did mention the knife restrictions he could find: no switch-blade knives and no daggers. I don't recall a mention of double-edged blades. However I don't plan putting it to the test. I spent a lot of time on my 1217's sheath and leather handle and it is now a work of art -- at least I like looking at it. ;) So after I get all my Beckers set up just the way I want and look about and decide I want to carry a 1217 on hikes for awhile, I'll get one from Amazon or Tomar . . . or maybe I'll see something irresistible on eBay; which could happen at any time. :D

Thanks again,

Lawrence
 
I'm just kinda know about CA knife law by osmosis from reading posts in the "Knife Laws" forum. There are a several of threads about CA there. The most informative posts are made by Kilgar. He is very knowledgeable about CA law, wisely consults attorneys for REAL answers, etc.

Rather than regurgitate probably mis-remembered details, check out Kilgar's posts in CA knife law threads.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
I'm just kinda know about CA knife law by osmosis from reading posts in the "Knife Laws" forum. There are a several of threads about CA there. The most informative posts are made by Kilgar. He is very knowledgeable about CA law, wisely consults attorneys for REAL answers, etc.

Rather than regurgitate probably mis-remembered details, check out Kilgar's posts in CA knife law threads.
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Rural Central Texas,

Thanks. I went over to the site you recommended and read some of Kilgar's posts. I could kind of see the context of what I read a while back and vaguely recall. Most people on Kilgar site were concerned about switch-blades. BTW I mentioned buying a Case hunting knife before being deployed to Korea, but I also bought a switch-blade. The Case knife was allowed, the switch-blade was not. I never saw the latter again. :grumpy:

I live in Riverside County and don't know if we have unique laws or if we like San Jose go by general California laws, but I primarily carry a fixed-bladed knife when hiking in unincorporated county land and as far as I know no knife or gun laws apply there. If they do no one is enforcing them. The land I hike on isn't patrolled. I rarely see anyone let alone cops. I mentioned somewhere about seeing some yellow crime scene tape and wondered if a body had been dumped there but never found that out. I can't say that cops have never been down there but I've never seen one in more than 15 years of hiking the region. I wear a fixed-bladed knife on my belt which I'm sure is legal for hiking.

Sounds from what Kilgar wrote that a concealed 1217 with a sharpened clip might under some circumstances be declared a dirk or dagger but can someone imagine that being done to this icon? I can't, but as I said earlier I don't intend to use mine for hiking. I said I would get a 1217 without the sharpened clip after I have all the Becker gear I want, but I lied. I sent for one earlier this morning. :foot: :rolleyes: :thumbup: :D

Lawrence
 
Lawrence Helm said:
snip...

I said I would get a 1217 without the sharpened clip after I have all the Becker gear I want, but I lied. I sent for one earlier this morning. :foot: :rolleyes: :thumbup: :D

Lawrence
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That's because your little lizard hind-brain overrode the logically thinking, mammalian fore-brain when the lizard brain recognized the fact that you will NEVER have ALL the Becker gear you want. :D
 
Mrknot said:
I have owned and loved my Vietnam-era Camillus "Kabar" for well over 20 years now. For a long, long time, it was my go-to woods/everything knife. When the leather washers started to fall apart, a little epoxy filler, and they were good as new...
Since I got my 7, I have retired the old USN MkII to a place of honor. My only real "safe queen" now.
2.5oz difference between sheathed knives, I'll probably never notice. The ability to do whatever the heck I want to do without fear of breaking the knife: priceless.
Click to expand...

I purchased my Camillus "Kabar" in 74 for a couple of dollars, when the surplus market was flooded with gear
 
Lawrence Helm said:
so what do you mean by "versatile"?
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The 98% or so of things knives are actually used for most often by soldiers and outdoorsy folks. As Daizee said, instances of wounding/killing people with knives are extremely rare in modern combat.

If I thought I had to attack/fight someone and could only use a knife, I'd choose a lighter, faster blade with a sharpened clip every time. But if an angry person came after me with a BK-7 (or a cheap kitchen knife for that matter), I'd be very, very concerned for my own safety.
 
In my humble a compairison can't be made. I see them as two totally different beasts. Granted, one influenced the other, but it came years and years later. I own both a Ka-bar (2) and a BK-7 (Camillus era-my first Becker), and love them both. During the invasion of Iraq in 2003 I went in carrying a Ka-bar (tanto tip), but left carrying the BK-7. Which I choose to carry depends on my mission set (both military and civilian). I have used both knives extensively and each performs differently at each seperate task. This is how I describe it: the Ka-bar is a combat/utility knife, the BK-7 is a utility/combat knife.
 
RRR1977 said:
In my humble a compairison can't be made. I see them as two totally different beasts. Granted, one influenced the other, but it came years and years later. I own both a Ka-bar (2) and a BK-7 (Camillus era-my first Becker), and love them both. During the invasion of Iraq in 2003 I went in carrying a Ka-bar (tanto tip), but left carrying the BK-7. Which I choose to carry depends on my mission set (both military and civilian). I have used both knives extensively and each performs differently at each seperate task. This is how I describe it: the Ka-bar is a combat/utility knife, the BK-7 is a utility/combat knife.
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My wife's sister is coming over for a visit (from Tucson) today and I needed to trim some tree branches out of the way so she could park in front of the east end of the garage. I put on my BK2, the do-everything knife, went out and looked at the branches I'd have to cut, went back into my garage and got a saw and never took the BK2 out of the sheath. Most of us aren't on a military mission and have more suitable tools than knives for doing what we need to do. Since I've been thinking of my old Buck knives I noticed that those on the Buck forum seemed to really like those old (and some new) Buck knives that weren't in the same ball-park with Becker when it comes to batoning, etc. Maybe the Buck people used more suitable tools. After all Buck used to make a hand axe and a saw (both of which I acquired years ago). Maybe they use the right tool for the job. But then yesterday I encountered this comment about a Buck knife I don't own, the Endeavor:

"I was able to baton some firewood, make some decent feathersticks and I used the knife to carve a figure-4 deadfall trap. The knife was comfortable in my hand but I was regretting the choice of a partially serrated blade for some of these tasks. The serrations do cut through cordage like butter though, so I figured I would get used to it. Then disaster struck. I decided to make a fire bow and I was batoning horizontally through a limb barely thicker than my thumb when the blade snapped! It broke cleanly through just at the point where the serrations start."

At 6.6 ounces, despite this fellow's outrage (not quoted), I suspect he wasn't using the right tool for the job. The BK7 would have been a much better tool, much better than the 1217 but even the 1217 probably would have been better than the Endeavor. As to what the 1217 is good for we have various stories from WWII indicating it was an excellent combat knife. If you need a combat knife for use against enemies in war, you probably can't do any (or at least much) better than the 1217. Even the BK7 probably won't measure up in all the elements that the 1217 excels at.

Meanwhile, this old Marine doesn't think of combat any more, at least not against enemy soldiers. I do hike a lot and encounter different sorts of threats. On my last hike I was carrying a BK2 and a Walther. I stopped at one point to take a leak. While I was doing that a coyote came up behind me. I guess my two dogs were facing the same way I was because the first I knew of the coyote was when Ben whirled to chase it. I had the right tool for that job: Ben, my 110 pound Rhodesian Ridgeback. My Walther and BK2 were just backup. But if I ever did need to deal with something, a cougar for example, I don't know that the 1217 would be the best "combat" weapon for that purpose. I think I would rather have the BK7 or the BK12 -- even the BK9, but that's such a big honking piece of steel. If I knew for sure I was going to encounter a cougar I'd take the BK9, but chances are I won't see one, and if I do, Ben will probably chase it off. :D:thumbup:

Lawrence
 
Try telling non-informed folks that a
kabar, k-bar or plain old 'bar
made by any other company other than ka-bar,
Isn't the proper address for such a knife;
And you would soon realise that
it's more of a generic descriptive term for a knife pattern
Rather than a particular knife model
manufactured by ka-bar the knife brand...
So, i had learnt to broadly smile
and stopped pulling hairs on trying to correct such details.
Between the ka-bar USmc and bk7,
I wholly agree with what has been posted here.
My take is that whilst the bk7 outmatches the USmc in every aspect,
Except for it's handle dimensions.
No disrespect to mr Becker for his fine trademark handle scales,
but the less bulky USmc handle
simply affords more grip variations
Which is necessary for the blade's orientation and manipulation.
In matters other than general usage...
Just my 2 cents.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
Except for the idiots on fleabay. Tons of people calling something a Kabar. :rolleyes:

One of the funniest/saddest was an Ontario JPK - It was posted as being a "WW2 Camillus Kabar by Ontario". The only thing right about the post was "by Ontario". And the text description ensured that the seller really was that confused. When I wrote the seller that the JPK were never WW2 as they didn't even come out until 1957, that Camillus, Kabar and Ontario were 3 different companies, his reply argument was that he had seen lots of these knives on ebay described as a "Camillus Kabar". Even though he was knife ignorant, I still bid (and won) the auction as it was a 1-69 Ontario JPK, the first month Ontario made them. :D



I like this combo. :D
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No offense, but most know AMC's name too, and not for their quality. ;) I don't, however, think anything is wrong with the Ka-bar when used exactly as a combat utility knife.
 
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