The Vintage handle information thread

[BG_Farmer]

Pfft. I'd mostly be upset by the awkward shape of the handle, but there's nothing wrong with the wood itself.

Thanks, I was referring only to the grain, no endorsement of the handles style or the hatchet itself !

Yes it is horrible but mostly inconsequential in this case. There is very little curve to that particular handle so unintentional runout due to grain orientation is not a problem. Plus it's overly thick and is very short. There isn't much weight to a hatchet head either. All told you'd have to work hard to break it.

Pictured below is another perfectly horizontal grain 36" haft. You can readily see that runout at the curves is extreme. The first overstrike or prying motion performed with that handle and you'd be out scouting around for another one. Why take that chance?

I will trust your judgement, as I can only see part of that handle. My point is that simply looking at the grain orientation at the butt end tells an incomplete story. I also think that if any strength or toughness is lost due to horizontal grain orientation alone, eg in a straight handle, it is not significant. I have a 30+ year old woodslasher db that has "horrible" grain and led a rough life, and it hasn't let me down yet.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Next time I get my hands on a handle with bad runout I'll put a heavy head on it and see how many deliberate overstrikes it can take.

 

[300Six]

Next time I get my hands on a handle with bad runout I'll put a heavy head on it and see how many deliberate overstrikes it can take.

Ouch! I despise being the wielder of an axe/sledge or maul when it suddenly 'lets go'. Likely where the phrase 'bad vibes' come from.

 

[quinton]

If through some fluke a rough blank sawn from a crosscut slab survived being shaped on the lathe (or via jig saw, rasps and files) you could snap the finished haft in two with virtually no effort.

That is true, we are getting somewhere now..
Although, that is not the same scenario as horizontal grain in a haft. Long grain goes through the eye no matter the grain orientation.. Think of a haft as a quarter sawn board as opposed to a short grained wafer sawn from a stump or the but of a log.. completely different things.

The first overstrike or prying motion performed with that handle and you'd be out scouting around for another one.

Now, these pictures prove the above statement is entirely wrong.. You know by looking at these ol' girls that they have endured WAY more than one lil' mishap in their life. How many overstrikes would you say that Bluegrass axe has taken in its life? The Autograf has seen many overstrikes as well, and has some mechanical damage, but both helves are more than usable!

 

[quinton]

Thanks, I was referring only to the grain, no endorsement of the handles style or the hatchet itself !



I will trust your judgement, as I can only see part of that handle. My point is that simply looking at the grain orientation at the butt end tells an incomplete story. I also think that if any strength or toughness is lost due to horizontal grain orientation alone, eg in a straight handle, it is not significant. I have a 30+ year old woodslasher db that has "horrible" grain and led a rough life, and it hasn't let me down yet.

Do you find that the old DB with horizontal grain pops a chip better, or have you paid any attention to that?

 

[BG_Farmer]

Do you find that the old DB with horizontal grain pops a chip better, or have you paid any attention to that?

I really haven't noticed. Until middle age took me, I was more of a brute than a technician , and this has been my primary felling axe since I was a kid.

I really like those two examples you put up. They look a lot like the axes my dad and grandad always had around. We always valued "straight grain" on the handles . How dense are they? A lot of the hardware store handles these days "look fine" but they are really light!

 

[cityofthesouth]

COTS,
Let's forget crying babies and broken angel wings for a moment and look at something together. I saw this the other day:
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2010/11/collins-hunters-axe-review.html
Note the comments on the handle. I cannot agree. Being a simple man, I would be quite happy with such a handle, not only on a small hatchet, but even on a large axe. The grain runs straight through the handle, and I don't see any obvious flaws, yet it is described as "horrible", " the worst possible grain alignment for an axe handle", etc. Do you agree with the reviewer that "Grain like this takes away all the strength of the handle"? I honestly can't see how that handle is likely ever to fail, any more than the GFB handle.

Absolutely - I'd swing that hatchet with no fear of the handle breaking. I never offered my opinion on whether or not any particular grain orientation strengthens or weakens a handle. My issue is with the run out vs orientation comment and with people agreeing with what you were saying even though it's contradictory (to their own opinion in fact). I have no specific opinion on your "rules" just the contradiction. I refer to this topic as a dead horse because it is and I plan to check myself every time I even think about commenting on grain orientation. The virtues of grain orientation have been so thoroughly beaten that to me, regardless of which side of the fence you may be on, I'm indifferent. All I ask, is for consistency. Quinton posted a consistent opinion on the subject, cleverly avoiding the crying babies bait in the process, and I'm perfectly happy with that. And to cap it off, I fully accept that you may have just been generalizing so I will stop giving you a hard time, because your opinion is probably consistent too .... you know, sorta, mostly.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The fact is that horizontal grain is a quality that is only more likely to lead to runout, and is not necessarily the direct factor causing failure, but rather a cosmetic symptom of it. As in, it is possible to use a piece of wood with horizontal end grain with a natural curve and have a curved handle with absolutely no runout, while on can have vertical end grain and horrendous short-length runout with the grain running at a bad slant to the handle. So while a straight-grained piece of wood turned into a handle with horizontal grain orientation is often going to have some amount of runout, it's not the end grain orientation that's causing the problem or potential for failure so much as it being a cosmetic detail that also happens to be present in a lot of handles with runout issues. A runout-free or minimal-runout horizontally aligned handle is typically still way above the practical strength requirement to withstand years of repeated, heavy (and modestly skilled) use. But the greater the amount of curvature to the handle the more difficult it will be to use horizontally aligned straight-grained wood without causing instances of short-length runout. In most curved handles the actual curve is mostly limited to the very end of the handle, and so is of little concern.

 

[BG_Farmer]

Absolutely - I'd swing that hatchet with no fear of the handle breaking. I never offered my opinion on whether or not any particular grain orientation strengthens or weakens a handle. My issue is with the run out vs orientation comment and with people agreeing with what you were saying even though it's contradictory (to their own opinion in fact). I have no specific opinion on your "rules" just the contradiction. I refer to this topic as a dead horse because it is and I plan to check myself every time I even think about commenting on grain orientation. The virtues of grain orientation have been so thoroughly beaten that to me, regardless of which side of the fence you may be on, I'm indifferent. All I ask, is for consistency. Quinton posted a consistent opinion on the subject, cleverly avoiding the crying babies bait in the process, and I'm perfectly happy with that. And to cap it off, I fully accept that you may have just been generalizing so I will stop giving you a hard time, because your opinion is probably consistent too .... you know, sorta, mostly.

Peace .

The fact is that horizontal grain is a quality that is only more likely to lead to runout, and is not necessarily the direct factor causing failure, but rather a cosmetic symptom of it. As in, it is possible to use a piece of wood with horizontal end grain with a natural curve and have a curved handle with absolutely no runout, while on can have vertical end grain and horrendous short-length runout with the grain running at a bad slant to the handle. So while a straight-grained piece of wood turned into a handle with horizontal grain orientation is often going to have some amount of runout, it's not the end grain orientation that's causing the problem or potential for failure so much as it being a cosmetic detail that also happens to be present in a lot of handles with runout issues. A runout-free or minimal-runout horizontally aligned handle is typically still way above the practical strength requirement to withstand years of repeated, heavy (and modestly skilled) use. But the greater the amount of curvature to the handle the more difficult it will be to use horizontally aligned straight-grained wood without causing instances of short-length runout. In most curved handles the actual curve is mostly limited to the very end of the handle, and so is of little concern.

That is a very good summary!

 

[gben]

In case anyone is still interested in looking at photos of Turner, Day and Woolworth handles, here is a shot of various old NOS handles of their manufacture I have already shown along with a really nice Double-bit handle I was lucky enough to find at a garage sale this weekend. It has a price of $1.65 written on one end. The handle on top is not a Turner-Day but some other oddball handle I found at the same garage sale, sorry for it's inclusion in the photo....

 

[cityofthesouth]

My apologies gben, another offhanded comment from me derailed your thread. Looks like you have been having very good luck in your picking.

 

[quinton]

I really haven't noticed. Until middle age took me, I was more of a brute than a technician , and this has been my primary felling axe since I was a kid.

I really like those two examples you put up. They look a lot like the axes my dad and grandad always had around. We always valued "straight grain" on the handles . How dense are they? A lot of the hardware store handles these days "look fine" but they are really light!

Density is something that was not discussed and is one of the most important parts of a quality handle. The handles on those 2 axes are good quality Hickory as you can tell..Good Hickory is heavy in the hand, and feels waxy to me. I have noticed a lot those light weight handles around recently. They are not suited for axe handles!

 

[BG_Farmer]

Density is something that was not discussed and is one of the most important parts of a quality handle. The handles on those 2 axes are good quality Hickory as you can tell..Good Hickory is heavy in the hand, and feels waxy to me. I have noticed a lot those light weight handles around recently. They are not suited for axe handles!

I agree. The eye section is where they would fail first, I think. The end grain on some of them seemed very coarse and open at the wedge slot, like a bundle of straws more than the almost ivory like appearance of good hickory. Maybe farmed hickory rather than cut from rocky hillsides? Until I saw it myself, I wouldn't have believed hickory could grow like that! I've also seen some kind of fungus suggested, but couldn't see any evidence of such.

 

[quinton]

I agree. The eye section is where they would fail first, I think. The end grain on some of them seemed very coarse and open at the wedge slot, like a bundle of straws more than the almost ivory like appearance of good hickory. Maybe farmed hickory rather than cut from rocky hillsides? Until I saw it myself, I wouldn't have believed hickory could grow like that! I've also seen some kind of fungus suggested, but couldn't see any evidence of such.

I was always told to cut "handle trees" from the bottoms of hollows where they grow straight and steady all season from the adequate moisture. I was told Hickorys on the ridges could have wind shake which would make the haft fail unexpectedly. I was also taught to mark the tree at waist height to make the first handle cut from the log. If the handle cut is made that includes the butt of the log, I was told the finished handle would gradually bow to conform to the flare of the stump. This is of coarse from riven staves, not sawn stock.. I have always made my handles to the above rules and have never had a failure!

You mentioned a fungus making the Hickory light? This has crossed my mind as well. Armillaria, commonly know as Honey Fungus would be the suspect I would blame!

 

[BG_Farmer]

I was always told to cut "handle trees" from the bottoms of hollows where they grow straight and steady all season from the adequate moisture. I was told Hickorys on the ridges could have wind shake which would make the haft fail unexpectedly. I was also taught to mark the tree at waist height to make the first handle cut from the log. If the handle cut is made that includes the butt of the log, I was told the finished handle would gradually bow to conform to the flare of the stump. This is of coarse from riven staves, not sawn stock.. I have always made my handles to the above rules and have never had a failure!

You mentioned a fungus making the Hickory light? This has crossed my mind as well. Armillaria, commonly know as Honey Fungus would be the suspect I would blame!

Useful information, thanks!

 

[gben]

I went back to the old warehouse I found the boy-axe handles at and was able to grab the rest of the handles and a couple of the boxes they came in. Looks like the handles have been sitting there for 45 years:

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Nice! Always great to see the original shipping boxes.

 

[gben]

The little things off to the side I tied up with some wire are of course wedges that were rattling around inside the box.

 

[SC T100]

Wow, that's an awesome find! Now you need to find a ton of boy's axe heads to hang! What a terrible problem to have.

 

[cityofthesouth]

wow, jackpot. Amazing what sits around and for how long.