This Trend Towards "Guardless" Knives

cziv said:
Some time back you said that with the new handle extensions from KSF that they were acceptable and good to go - especially recommending the #3. :confused:

I spent a lot of money based on your suggestions because you've got a lot of experience. Now you think they're not any good?
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IMO, the stock handles aren't any good. With the new handles from KSF, the problem is solved. Obviously changing out the scales is going to solve the ergonomics issues...
 
I tend to look at it this way: if a guard is done right, it won't be in the way.
It shouldn't protrude past the knuckles, so it won't hang up and pull the knife out of your hand (either on the draw or on the work) and tapered so you can choke up on the choil if there is one.( i put 5/8" or so on my hunters).
That being said, personally I'm not a big fan of guards. A properly designed handle shape is far more important.
 
I prefer no guard , but I do like a handle that is contoured to have that bump so you know where handle ends and blade begins .
I have killed animals for meat since I was about 10 yr old , did it for at least 20 years . I learned with regular butcher knives with no guards , but then my pocket knife was a slip joint folder , I learned to use it so it didnt cut me as well .

I did a stint in a meatworks ... we were supplied knives , chain mail glove for the off hand , and a mail apron to protect the legs and belly .. our knives were regular handled meat working knives .. no guards . I dont think that a knife with a guard wold really pass OHS standards .. I could be wrong tho .

we wore rubber gloves and had no issues I can remember with grip or gutting our hands ... cuts on other body parts yeah , hands was not nearly as common as I expected tho .
 
Mr. Fowler, I take great offense at your words. Calling someone whose life experience has shown to be different than your own "macho" is a deliberate insult, and once again I am saddened by your arrogance, especially with the respect you have garnered in the community. My knife choices are my own, and I base them on my experiences using, collecting, and visualizing knives all day long. I have no concern about how others perceive my use/collection, and for you to emphatically state that it is because I want to feel some sort of machismo is well beyond how you should conduct yourself, sir.

I have never liked guards, do not want choils at all, and have never seen a person I know slice their fingers because of a lack of guard. I was instructed to be careful when approaching the item to be cut so that the tip isn't jammed into something. When butchering, we would usually cut through the costal cartilage rather than muck around inside a carcass (the cartilage is soft and much easier to get through than the breastbone itself). I come from a farm/hunting family, both my father and myself have worked in meat processing facilities, so there is some experience in cutting. I find that a guard gets in the way more than it helps in all tasks I perform. If I want a bit more protection I find nothing wrong with a dropped edge- that way the blade is still extremely close to my hand, which is another detraction to a guard- I like the edge millimeters away from my fingers, not separated by inches, as then I have more leverage and precision at the base of the blade, an area that I find gets a lot of use.

I have no problem seeing guards and choils on knives, but I try and ignore the arrogance of saying the knives are poor or lacking because they have features undesirable to me. I feel that it would be hubris to tell Mr. Fowler that his "handles are of poor design if he needs the choil area for close up work. My handles of choice put my hand close to the blade, as I want. His handles put his hand far away from the blade- as he wants. nobody is right or wrong, they just have different opinions.

I have Also found that I find handles without guards to be more ergonomic for me, as the designers have more flexibility in how they finish the front of the handle without a block of steel to contend with. I find this gives (usually) a more narrow profile, which I like more for fine detail work.

To each their own, but my experiences have led me to this side of the path.
 
Cuts like a Chris:
Please go back and read exactly what I said, and consider the scenario I use to illustrate my point.
I could care less what anyone uses in the kitchen, or on a kill floor, first aid is usually close by or a phone call away.

His attitude, choice of a knife and carelessness ruined the hunt of a life time for 12, we were in great elk country. He was not the only one to suffer the consequences, the other hunters refused to pay for the hunt and I don't blame them, the guide went broke.

My father was an MD in a small mountain community, during hunting season he sewed up a lot of knife wounds, most of which could have been prevented by the simple inclusion of a guard on the knife they used. (there were other causes concerning knife design, but they are off topic) My present MD worked an emergency room, I asked him to record the relative facts about accidental knife wounds, (never any names) again the lack of a guard was the number #1 contributing factor. Neither one of them would consider a pack trip or hunt depending solely on a knife without a guard.

When I hired a ranch hand, one of my first questions was to see their knife. If it was a fixed blade with a guard they were in, if it was a folder or guard-less knife and they proved up in the first 30 days I would supply them a fixed blade with a guard. Not only for my safety, but for those who might have to depend on his use of the knife.

Dressing game or working on a kill floor or kitchen is simple when compared to what a knife may be needed to do in a survival situation. It is one thing when only you are counting on you, but when others are involved safety, in my opinion, is simple consideration for your companions be they animal or human. Personally I want all the odds in my favor.

Back when I guided hunts, I was over joyed to do the knife work, simply because I did not want to have to deal with more than an elk or deer down. One Surgeon dressed skinned, and boned his elk using a surgical scalpel and a few blades. He was a joy to watch, he knew what he was doing. He carried a very different knife (with a guard) in case of a survival situation.

For the last 35 years the only time a fixed blade knife with a guard has not been on my side is when I have to fly commercial airlines. I do not consider myself macho or a wimp because of it. It is simply a lesson I have learned through my life experience.

And naturally every one is free to make their own decisions.
 
Some people are more careful than others with a knife, and as a result, they don't get injured. And some people are just plain lucky. And sometimes, sh*t just happens.

As far as housewives using guardless knives, I've heard several times from ER personnel that housewives are FREQUENT visitors, with severe cuts on their hands from kitchen knife mishaps.

It's impossible to know how many people have cut themselves due to a guardless knife. I don't imagine such records are kept. For all we know, the numbers could be high. Who knows how many old time hunter/trapper/skinners may have cut themselves, and possibly died from infection.

As far as, "Knives from the old days don't have guards, so that proves we don't need them." If the "old days" were the deciding factor in what knives we chose, we'd all be carrying slip-joints instead of modern locking folders. Over time, designs improve, especially when people put more consideration into safety. How many things do we use every day that are a LOT safer than they were just 50 years ago.

I have nothing against guardless knives and don't think ill of those who prefer them. I happen to prefer a half-guard on my camp knife. Different strokes.
 
As far as housewives using guardless knives, I've heard several times from ER personnel that housewives are FREQUENT visitors, with severe cuts on their hands from kitchen knife mishaps.
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You're then inferring that all these kitchen knife mishaps are because the knife doesn't have a guard? I'm willing to bet that most of those ER visits by housewives are from cuts to their other hand or finger, in which no guard could prevent. Kitchen knife use usually require one hand holding the object and the other hand cutting or chopping. Just look at the quick chopping of vegetables where the fingers look like they're going to get cut off anytime. No guard on the knife is going to lessen that danger. Every cut my family received in the kitchen came from the hand or finger being placed carelessly in the way of the blade, whether it be from the off hand or from paring fruit and placing the thumb or finger directly in front of the blade edge to guide the paring knife. None of the cuts came from the hand slipping up the handle into the blade. I'll bet that even if every housewife and cook uses knives with finger guards in the kitchen, the percentage of accidents wouldn't go down in any significant way.
 
Same thing with kids using Swiss Army knives and others, never really cut the hand that is holding the knife - it's the other hand. A guard doesn't stop a knife from slipping out of a hand but could stop a slippery hand from going forward on a knife with poor handle shape and texture - in cutting chores how likely is that? It's more so stabbing into a hard object with a knife that has poor handle shape and texture and not utilizing the butt against your palm or thumb-capped.

If anything the person needs the common sense to stop and wipe off their hand if they can't comfortably, securely grip a sharp tool. A guard isn't going to prevent most cuts or stabs (drops) people inflict on themselves.
 
The "hunting bowie" with it's double guard was around for a few decades. As weighed against human history, that's a blink of the eye. For most of human history, working knives had no guard. The Mountain Men carried what was later called a "Butchering Pattern" - thin blade with two wooden slabs riveted on for a handle. http://www.ragweedforge.com/HistoricalKnifeCatalog.html

You want to stab someone, an argument for a guard can be made. Dedicated weapons usually (but not always as noted) had a guard of some kind.
 
I asked him to record the relative facts about accidental knife wounds, (never any names) again the lack of a guard was the number #1 contributing factor.
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Seems to me the lack of good knife technique on the part of the wounded was the primary contributing factor.
 
Ed Fowler said:
Cuts like a Chris:
Please go back and read exactly what I said, and consider the scenario I use to illustrate my point.
I could care less what anyone uses in the kitchen, or on a kill floor, first aid is usually close by or a phone call away.

His attitude, choice of a knife and carelessness ruined the hunt of a life time for 12, we were in great elk country. He was not the only one to suffer the consequences, the other hunters refused to pay for the hunt and I don't blame them, the guide went broke.

My father was an MD in a small mountain community, during hunting season he sewed up a lot of knife wounds, most of which could have been prevented by the simple inclusion of a guard on the knife they used. (there were other causes concerning knife design, but they are off topic) My present MD worked an emergency room, I asked him to record the relative facts about accidental knife wounds, (never any names) again the lack of a guard was the number #1 contributing factor. Neither one of them would consider a pack trip or hunt depending solely on a knife without a guard.

When I hired a ranch hand, one of my first questions was to see their knife. If it was a fixed blade with a guard they were in, if it was a folder or guard-less knife and they proved up in the first 30 days I would supply them a fixed blade with a guard. Not only for my safety, but for those who might have to depend on his use of the knife.

Dressing game or working on a kill floor or kitchen is simple when compared to what a knife may be needed to do in a survival situation. It is one thing when only you are counting on you, but when others are involved safety, in my opinion, is simple consideration for your companions be they animal or human. Personally I want all the odds in my favor.

Back when I guided hunts, I was over joyed to do the knife work, simply because I did not want to have to deal with more than an elk or deer down. One Surgeon dressed skinned, and boned his elk using a surgical scalpel and a few blades. He was a joy to watch, he knew what he was doing. He carried a very different knife (with a guard) in case of a survival situation.

For the last 35 years the only time a fixed blade knife with a guard has not been on my side is when I have to fly commercial airlines. I do not consider myself macho or a wimp because of it. It is simply a lesson I have learned through my life experience.

And naturally every one is free to make their own decisions.
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You were stating absolutes, and when discussing different takes on peoples opinions there is no absolutes. You have had experiences different than I, yet denigrate my choice as "macho". I understand where you are coming from, however my experience is different than yours- why the need to try and belittle my experience?

I recently heard of a gentleman who sliced the tendons of his off hand with a gut hook. It was not the fault of the hook- but that of the user. A guard would not have helped in this case, or many others. My wife worked in an Arctic health center and cannot recall a single knife related injury while she was there, and the knives I saw in use by the Inuit there were generally dull kitchen knives. They used them properly, and had no issue. I was taught to not rely on safeties, and taught how my family safely used knives. I don't understand why everybody had to leave a hunt in your example- wouldn't it have only required a couple of men to go out, and return once the guy was patched up? As well, I would attribute the injuries to user error over poor knife design in most likely every case. My knives are used for slicing or chopping- if I put forward force on the knife without proper pommel reinforcement I am using the knife wrong. Every time I have cut myself was due to my error, nothing else. Perhaps you should say that most people do not know how to safely and effectively utilize a sharp edge, and that you make safety features that recognize such ignorance? (ignorance in its true form, no negative bias toward not knowing).

I cannot understand how you discount thousands of years of knife development in regards to guards- after all of the waxing poetic about lady knife, all knives have led to the development of current knives. Your stance about slipjoints/locking folders seems to me to be a poor choice, as slipjoints are still used worldwide daily, without chopping off fingers, and when I was growing up we used guard less fixed blades much more than anything else. But I guess my grandfather, who grew up hunting through the beginning of the 1900's, only wanted to be macho in front of his dogs and the dead deer right?

My point is essentially this- your opinion is only your opinion, and it demeans yourself to denigrate the opinions of others with such baseless attacks as your Macho stance. If you would have handed my a guarded knife as a ranch hand, I would have thanked you, used it for a bit to see its design features and then modified it or went back to what I knew would work. And as you won't make a guard less knife and feel that nobody should be allowed to modify "your" knives once they own them, then I doubt I will ever utilize your designs, which is too bad. However, my knives of choice are slicers, and I rarely consider needing a knife to cut myself out of harms way as you seem to think each knife should be able to do. Isn't it "macho" to think that each knife has to be able to cut your way out if a downed helicopter? Most of us will never experience a true survival experience, and of those I know who have- chopping for fire starting has been primary need- and in every case an axe was used. So should everybody that does not travel in the woods with an axe be labelled as macho because of what I have learned- absolutely not, and it is ignorant to place my experiences over those of other people, as you have done to me.
 
Guard, no guard, who cares.
The handle design is more important than whether it has a guard or not.
The only time I really care is with double guards...I friggin HATE those things for any and all uses.:thumbdn:
 
CUTS LIKE A KRIS said:
Mr. Fowler, I take great offense at your words. Calling someone whose life experience has shown to be different than your own "macho" is a deliberate insult, and once again I am saddened by your arrogance, especially with the respect you have garnered in the community.
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Why get all bent out of shape about one guy's opinions? It's a waste of time.

You can choose not to take what people write on a public forum so personally.
 
Cutslikeachris:
For a party of that magnitude he had originally had 5 seasoned guides signed up to help, an auto accident and illness took three guides out of the hunt. Leaving 12 greenhorns 15 miles in the wilderness would have been a serious & dangerous error to both hunters horses and pack mules, that is why all had to come out.
 
Ed Fowler said:
To me a knife is a tool, to be used and enjoyed in the good times and must be designed to meet the worst times. The greater the margin of safety the maker can develop in his knives and scabbards the better for the man who pays his bills, his client.

There seems to be a macho image for some to use a knife without a guard, to me it is a needless risk. When I worked on a kill floor I could leg, skin, face head and gut a cow as fast as any and my knife had a full guard.

Years ago one of my students decided he did not want a guard on his knife, he was handy enough (macho) it was not necessary for him. He was hired on as a guide and camp cook for an elk hunt. He was skinning an elk, his hand slipped onto his pride and joy knife without a guard and the entire party (12) hunters, had to cut their pack trip short, break camp and to take him 15 miles back to the highway, then to the hospital. Six hours of surgery, 3 months rehab and years later he can use his hand pretty good, about 40 % recovery, except for his trigger and middle fingers. A cut tendon is a serious event and can take years to heal. I choose not to take the risk.

This summer a student to one of our seminars handed me a knife with out a guard, the handle design was like a slide onto the blade. Just holding it sent a chill down my back. Personally I would not use that knife to sharpen a pencil.

A three piece knife is time saver to make. To develop a guard with a high degree of functional qualities takes me about 6 hours, but for me it is worth it.

There are significant differences in knives and there are many choices. This is a good thing, freedom to make what you believe in and freedom to chose what you will carry.

We all make our choices and then have to live with them.
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I feel the same way also Ed. :)

For a user knife it better have a guard of some kind or a dropped edge to prevent the hand from slipping forward onto the blade or I am not going to use it at all out in the field.

Others may have other opinions, but this is mine because accidents can and do happen and they will happen at the worst times from my experiences over the years.
 
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Judging by the massive amount of butt-hurt coming from Kris and Grapevine I would have to conclude that having no guard does not make you macho but infact makes you a baby.
 
Mountain men likely carried whatever cheap trade knives they got from their employer, albeit at a ridiculous markup over what they would have cost in the East. As for the hunting bowie or "cowboy" bowie, it was a modification of the older "fighting" bowie typically made in England in the period when repeating firearms became readily available at affordable prices after the Civil War. Bowies of all types were not around for long because they were invented at the same time that firearms were rapidly developing. One you had a Colt or Remington revolver, you didn't really need an edged weapon as a backup.
If you want a REALLY good argument, we can talk about how the switch to full tang "broomstick" handles on those English knives rendered them nigh useless on some people's opinion for anything other than a peg to hand you coat on. This, of course, raises another question. Is the preponderance of guard less knives recent times tied to the adoption of the easier to manufacture full tang knife?
Thomas Linton said:
The "hunting bowie" with it's double guard was around for a few decades. As weighed against human history, that's a blink of the eye. For most of human history, working knives had no guard. The Mountain Men carried what was later called a "Butchering Pattern" - thin blade with two wooden slabs riveted on for a handle. http://www.ragweedforge.com/HistoricalKnifeCatalog.html

You want to stab someone, an argument for a guard can be made. Dedicated weapons usually (but not always as noted) had a guard of some kind.
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