Tiem to hold our breath, cross our fingers and pray

DannyinJapan said:
If pulling all of your military forces out of the defeated country is how you define "victory" then those wars havent ended yet....
Click to expand...

You're vastly oversimplifying the issue here, Danny.

US military bases were constructed in both Germany and Japan immediately following WWII. We also have bases in a number of other countries as well. Not all of them were on the losing side of WWII.

Both were strategically important in the postwar period, when the fact that "Uncle" Joe Stalin wasn't the friend that he'd portrayed himself to be was finally driven home for good. If America had not built bases there, the Russians would have - and at the time, this was completely unacceptable. (This also plays a large part in why atomic bombs were dropped in Japan. Had an invasion been necessary, the Russians were in position and more than willing to help. And they would have wanted something for their pains afterwards. Something like a warm water port...)

They are still occupied to this day, true. They are still strategically important to the US.

If these bases were shut down tomorrow, would Japan and Germany resume combat with America? I'd hope not.

Korea is an apple in a comparison of oranges. While a state of war still technically exists on the peninsula, North Korea initiated hostilities and there are no US military bases there to the best of my knowledge. The bases in South Korea are largely responsible for the fact that large scale hostilities have not resumed.
 
Satori's usual excellent post.

I watched the news tonight and saw Palistinian Spokemen were characterizing the Gaza pull-out as not much, but what was historically due anyway. This sent a fear into me- exactly what N2Sharp and others were talking about; that at best it would be seen as appeasement and appeasment doesn't work.



munk
 
Where will it all end up?

Read: Two Scenarios

All right. The evacuation of Gaza is now a fact. It’s not over yet, and there are plenty of (figurative) landmines yet to be avoided, but the withdrawal is the new reality. The question is, what's going to happen now?

Maybe it'll go something like this. The Palestinians of Gaza, flush with an exhilarating sense of opportunity, discover that they can indulge in a new, unexpectedly sweet luxury: thinking about Israelis as something other than the enemy. (entire speculation available at the link)

* * *

Or this could happen. The Palestinians of Gaza, flush with the satisfaction of having thrown out the Israelis, wonder what even more mortars and suicide belts might accomplish. (entire speculation available at the link)

* * *

Which is it going to be? I don’t think we’ll see either of these extremes, but the needle on my barometer is tilting slightly toward the pessimistic. It’s an exceptionally fragile situation. If things start well, it could pick up momentum, but the muscle-minority in the area won’t be well-served by a smooth transition.

We’ll just have to wait and see.
 
Im certain you are correct about nuances and details and stated reasonings behind our actions. If you look at the world like a chessboard, however, the trend is most definitely there.
The idea I was trying to convey is that allowing a defeated nation continue to exist is a relatively new notion in man's history and we still dont have a good idea of how that is supposed to work.
The idea of taking land away from someone is probably not an option anymore. Now, if you win a war, YOU are responsible for fixing the other guy's country and making it better than before.
Think about that. It makes it seem worth the cost to declare war on the USA.
"They kill a few thousand of us, in return we get schools, hospitals and a whole new fully funded bureacracy full of great jobs.. No more coconut chopping for me, where 's that AK-47?"

"If these bases were shut down tomorrow, would Japan and Germany resume combat with America?" If you lived here and listened to their politicians this might not seem like such a far-fetched idea to you.
Don't you doubt it. Don't ever believe that it couldnt happen. These people are incredibly bellicose and gullible at the same time.
Remember how they claim that they dont know how they got involved in World War 2 in the first place?
That same mixed up BS situation exists here now. If all American Forces are withdrawn, there wont be any way to help contain another such "confusing" situation.

Take heed. Those who refuse to believe that anyone is beyond violence towards their "friends" is sadly mistaken. Have you forgotten how the Israelis called President Bush, "Hitler" when we told them they couldnt take part in the Iraq war? People can make an about face in a heartbeat.

It may make you feel good to believe that the people who made war on us before would never make war on us again, but it is not reality. We can't afford to trust in the successes of the past. We have to ensure our own security, against all threats, on a daily basis. International relations has no place for trust or denial or complacency. We have to be objective and fair with everyone.

The realm of international relations is not a warm and fuzzy place. There is no comfort for you. There is no peace of mind for you.
Do you think Condoleeza Rice gets up in the morning and says "Everythings gonna be OK!" ?

Things may be OK, but it wont because we were all being nice and sending each other post cards..
It will be because we stood ready to drop huge bombs anywhere in the world within 30 minutes or less, just like domino's pizza.

There is no council of elders who sit around and talk things out, like we have here in the cantina. (its a shame, but its true)

The leaders you see in office are all bloody. Putin probably personally shot a few American spies. Sharon probably killed few people too. These men wear suits, but make no mistake, they are killers. As are we all.

Life is chaos, and people refer to low level chaos as peace and high level chaos as war.

Im sorry if I seem nhialistic. The truth is, I am scared. For the first time in my life, I have doubts about tomorrow.
Im having trouble seeing a good tomorrow.
 
Thanks for all the great info in this thread Esav. I still think that this move will embolden the Palestinian terrorists into believing that 'terror works, look, we drove the Jews out of Gaza.' My personal belief is reinforced by reports of Hamas using slogans to the effect of 'Today Gaza, tomorrow the West Bank, in the future Tel Aviv.'

We won't know how this really turned out for years to come, but I have a bad feeling that it won't turn out well....and believe me, I hope I'm 100% wrong.

Esav Benyamin said:
Which is it going to be? I don’t think we’ll see either of these extremes, but the needle on my barometer is tilting slightly toward the pessimistic. It’s an exceptionally fragile situation. If things start well, it could pick up momentum, but the muscle-minority in the area won’t be well-served by a smooth transition.

We’ll just have to wait and see.
Click to expand...
 
Maybe it'll go something like this. The Palestinians of Gaza, flush with an exhilarating sense of opportunity, discover that they can indulge in a new, unexpectedly sweet luxury: thinking about Israelis as something other than the enemy.
Click to expand...

I hope that you realize that that is unlikely to happen. What is driving islamic fundamentalism has nothing to do with US or Israeli policy. Its is just a process for externalizing an internal problem. Just as Castro has taken to calling the US "the Great Satan", the leadership of the Palestinians have come to blame Israel for their own mis-management and malfeasance. I don't see anything in the mix that would put in place either competent governance, nor a Palestinian economy robust enough to absorb its massive (over) population; so there is no reason to expect a relief in the venom directed at either the US or Israel.

n2s
 
The idea I was trying to convey is that allowing a defeated nation continue to exist is a relatively new notion in man's history and we still dont have a good idea of how that is supposed to work.

Actually, it goes back a long ways. To take one spectacularly successful example, the Persian Empire of Cyrus and his immediate successors conquered their neighbors, powerful and ancient nations, and continued them in their own traditions. The governers placed over them were often from their own previous elites-- with Persian military officers and treasury officials, of course. :)

When the Persians weakened, these nations, like Egypt and Babylon, were able to resume their previous autonomy.

To some extent, Alexander the Great and his successors continued that tradition, and the Roman Empire certainly did, too, although ruling over less powerful peoples, the Romans tended to assimilate them more thoroughly.
 
Danny,
YOU ,believe Palist.leaders want PEACE!Yeah ,just like Arafat preaching PEACE,& they have him on tape,telling Terrs.pay NO attention what I say in public.You do what you want to,use ,military,or suicide bombers etc.I support you....pay no attention what I say to the media....Dan.....sorry,you & I see things differently..I'm a realist.....try peaceful means...sure BUT keep youk guns loaded & your K's sharp! I trust THE TERRS. to be just what they are!!
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
The governers placed over them
Click to expand...
That's occupation by proxy.
Close, but no cigar!

YOU ,believe Palist.leaders want PEACE!
Click to expand...

I never said anything of the kind. I have no idea how you extrapolated that. In fact, I was trying to convey the idea that belief needs to be cut out of the equation.
 
Danny, you mentioned "allowing a defeated nation continue to exist is a relatively new notion" not occupation. Throughout history, many occupied nations have regained independence. Poland has been carved up time and time again, and is now reconstituted as strong as it's ever been.

On the other hand, "Palestine" as an Arab nation has never existed.
 
AQABA, Jordan - Jordanian authorities found the launcher that fired three Katyusha rockets from a hilltop warehouse, including one that narrowly missed a U.S. naval ship docked at this Red Sea resort, Jordan's Interior Minister Awni Yirfas said Saturday.

The most serious strike against the U.S. Navy since the USS Cole bombing in Yemen nearly five years ago killed a Jordanian soldier Friday, wounded another and sparked a nationwide manhunt for the culprits involved.

Two other rockets were fired toward Israel from the same warehouse, which is located in the hills on Aqaba's northern edge about 5 miles from the port. One fell short and hit the wall of a Jordanian military hospital and the other landed inside Israel close to Eilat airport, lightly wounding a taxi driver.



Katyusha rockets


http://www.iris.org.il/katyusha.htm
 
I wish I could read all of this and feel better, but no matter what I say or hear, I still feel this sense of dread.
ITs worse than my old nuclear war with the Soviets dread, and I am old enough to remember that.
Dread.
Damn dread.
Somebody convince me that its all going to be ok.
 
Danny,

I mean for this to help...

"While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease."


"Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"


How can we keep "belief" out of the picture? What "objective" science can answer your concerns, or give you reassurance? Who decides what is objective, or what a desirable outcome in any given situation is?

For those who think and believe along Darwinian lines, why is even "peace' desirable over war? How do you know which one will further the survival of the species? Why is even the survivial of any species, or any life at all a "good" thing? What is good, in that system? Things just "are".

If man , and his thoughts and emotions, are just the products of chance, time, and natural selection, then what does anything mean? Darwin refutes himself, because his theories are also the product of evolution, and may just be a blip on the screen of whatever is going on. How can he step "outside" to "objectivly" evaluate the data he observed? That is the great myth of "science". Whatever is going on, who gets out side of the system to evaluate it objectively? How would you be sure you were outside enough?

Two bottom line thoughts...

1. The belief that "belief" should be kept out of any solution is just a belief!

2. Apart from a self existent, eternal, infinite God who creates all things, there is no basis for "objective" morality, or "objective" anything else!.


If this doesn't help, no lesser thing I could offer would. You deserve more than platitudes and illusory comforts.



feeling the weight of my infirmities,

Tom
 
Esav, Tom and the others, I appreciate your efforts in this thread.
I do, you must never think that I mean any disrespect, thats not me, I dont do that.
Im not eloquent, thats my problem, so I sound gruff sometimes.
I guess what I meant to say was that we need a solution that is free of dogma, if not belief.
God DOES NOT reward suicide bombers with eternity in paradise being fellated by supermodels. The word Jihad is an oxymoron. There is nothing holy about war. War is the most obscene thing ever devised by man.
One can believe in God without believing that the state of Israel is special in the eyes of God or that Jews are his chosen people.
I have studied almost every culture on Earth and without exception, in their pre-modern religious beliefs, they ALL think that they are special, chosen, divine.
Its nothing more than backhanded racism.
I dont believe in a God who inspires racial hatred. God is real, I believe this.
We have got to get past our own immaturity as a species if we are ever to fulfill our potential as his creations.
 
You need to think in biblical terms. I really think that is the only way to understand what is going on in the middle-east...and elsewhere.

Jeff
 
thats exactly WHY the middle east is where it is, people are thinking in biblical terms.
Not they they are thinking as God wanted us to think, but they Think they are.
Remember, the bible ends in global genocide.
Id rather not see every page of the the bible fulfilled..
 
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