Titanium axe/'hawk

Square_peg said:
35 years in the trade here and all I talk to say they suck. Many bought one thinking it sounded cool but then quickly went back to their steel hammers. I've swung them and found them ineffective. Again - inertia. A 12oz. hammer will never ever strike like a 24 oz. hammer. If you can show me physics that says otherwise I'll have a look.
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Certainly no sense in using a 12 oz hammer for a 24 oz job, and I'm not going to argue against experience. :p I haven't used a ti hammer much and it was a 16 oz, but I 've heard many good reports about them.

I do have experience cutting and chopping with weighty, large ti alloy blades though, and there's more going on with them than it looks. They feel like heavier blades than they are when you cut with them, and do get sharp and stay that way well. I believe a ti alloy hatchet head would do great work, but nobody will know until it gets tried. It would be great to make a ti alloy traditional-style hatchet and do a passaround. Making a flat plate 'hawk will be more realistic though.
 
Most all flat plate style hawks I've seen are much less efficient choppers than a traditionally shaped head that has more curve thickness in the cheeks to allow for better lateral pushing of material perpendicular to the chopping impact direction. There's more similar curved cheekiness between a stone axe head and a steel axe head than most might think and I believe there's good design reasons for those similarities born out through the experiences of millennia of human tool use. An efficient chopping axe type of head is not supposed to be shaped like a knife blade on a stick which is why I favor the more traditional style designs. Having the convenience of being able to separate the head from the handle for travel, replacement, or to modify to different length handles as dictated by changing needs is also a real boon over plate style hawks and axes. Just my opinions.
 
Nobody said:
Most all flat plate style hawks I've seen are much less efficient choppers than a traditionally shaped head that has more curve thickness in the cheeks to allow for better lateral pushing of material perpendicular to the chopping impact direction. There's more similar curved cheekiness between a stone axe head and a steel axe head than most might think and I believe there's good design reasons for those similarities born out through the experiences of millennia of human tool use. An efficient chopping axe type of head is not supposed to be shaped like a knife blade on a stick which is why I favor the more traditional style designs. Having the convenience of being able to separate the head from the handle for travel, replacement, or to modify to different length handles as dictated by changing needs is also a real boon over plate style hawks and axes. Just my opinions.
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Agreed, Nobody. A normal hatchet head would be the way to see how a ti hatchet really works. Drifting the handle hole in a brick of ti alloy isn't going to happen, so it will have to be machined or drilled & filed in. I would mimic my favorite hatchet, a short-handled, big-headed old Swedish one that was my granddaddies.
 
When my friend Pekka Tuominen visited me, I took him to meet Lonnie Hansen, who makes Hawks. He was making titanium head and said that he had been surprised that there was not a big difference in chopping ability between steel and titanium headed Hawks. I would expect being lighter you might be able to swing it faster, making up for the weight difference, and of course good geometry has a lot to do with it too. John
 
John A. Larsen said:
I would expect being lighter you might be able to swing it faster, making up for the weight difference, and of course good geometry has a lot to do with it too.
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Well that doesn't work for hammers but maybe it will magically work for axes. You don't get enough speed to make up for the lost mass.
 
Nobody said:
Most all flat plate style hawks I've seen are much less efficient choppers than a traditionally shaped head that has more curve thickness in the cheeks to allow for better lateral pushing of material perpendicular to the chopping impact direction. There's more similar curved cheekiness between a stone axe head and a steel axe head than most might think and I believe there's good design reasons for those similarities born out through the experiences of millennia of human tool use. An efficient chopping axe type of head is not supposed to be shaped like a knife blade on a stick which is why I favor the more traditional style designs. Having the convenience of being able to separate the head from the handle for travel, replacement, or to modify to different length handles as dictated by changing needs is also a real boon over plate style hawks and axes. Just my opinions.
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Most plate style hawks are poor choppers because of poor tactical grinds meant for holding up to oil drum backyard play time. Wedge shapes are better for heavier tools but a light tool doesn't need to be very wide at all, a knife style grind chops much better in most woods, but all of this is so highly dependent on weight. The argument doesn't apply to stone, because thin stone wouldn't hold up to chopping use anyway. It has to be thick.
 
Square_peg said:
35 years in the trade here and all I talk to say they suck. Many bought one thinking it sounded cool but then quickly went back to their steel hammers. I've swung them and found them ineffective. Again - inertia. A 12oz. hammer will never ever strike like a 24 oz. hammer. If you can show me physics that says otherwise I'll have a look.
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The only meaningful comparison would be similar hammers from TI and steel at the same weight.
 
Square_peg said:
Well that doesn't work for hammers but maybe it will magically work for axes. You don't get enough speed to make up for the lost mass.
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Do you swing your hammers and hatchets at full power and speed, or what?
 
Are you suggesting that titanium would be fine if I would just work harder?

That's a helluva selling point. Good luck with that.
 
Square_peg said:
Are you suggesting that titanium would be fine if I would just work harder?

That's a helluva selling point. Good luck with that.
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No I'm suggesting that technique changes with the tool used. Just because a hammer (or axe) is heavier, doesn't mean it automatically makes a job easier...especially repetitive work. I'm sure you know there's more to the way a hand-held blade works than, "It's heavier so it cuts better."
 
Mecha,interesting discussion.Thanks for sharing such exotic info....
(Strictly hypothetical question):Is it possible to achieve a diffusion weld between Ti and steel?Canister?Anything?....
(as in that casr maybe a traditionally-shaped steel axe-head could be bladed with Ti...making the balancing issue somewhat easier...)..
Just the most idle musings tho'...
 
P.S.
(In an absolutely fantastical realm:) ),a very classy,but worn to uselessness vintage axe can be re-bladed with Ti...Would it be possible to HT the Ti insert properly,if attached to steel?How similar/dissimilar are heat-treatments for Beta Ti and the more common steel alloys?
 
jake pogg said:
Mecha,interesting discussion.Thanks for sharing such exotic info....
(Strictly hypothetical question):Is it possible to achieve a diffusion weld between Ti and steel?Canister?Anything?....
(as in that casr maybe a traditionally-shaped steel axe-head could be bladed with Ti...making the balancing issue somewhat easier...)..
Just the most idle musings tho'...
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Titanium and steel are virtually impossible to weld to each other, but I heard that there is a way to almost braze them. Explosion bonding? :D

A ti insert could be machined to fit into a machined groove on the axe head, perhaps.

The heat treatment theory of beta ti alloy is superficially similar to high carbon steel, but there are nuanced differences. The heat treatment of beta ti would generally crack or ruin steel during the quench, and leave it soft after aging.
 
So,they're in a way of an antagonist to each other,FeC and Ti...

Explosion bonding is Way cool!:)...a thermite reaction-built axe!:)

Once at work i got to help the mechanics explosion-braze these negative terminals to our generator skids...(They let me pull the trigger on one-that was Cool!:).That bond created steel-to -bronze was hard-core.
It's actually a somehow easily overlooked fact-the bond achieved by brazing is not too far off,numbers wise,from arc-welded strengh #'s...(40 000-60 000 or sumpin pretty serious).

Not sure if by machined fit you meant dry-fit,or for brazing,both would have a place i suppose.Very early on people brazed or soldered iron parts with copper-based alloy;strong joint,looks fantastic etched....

HT's not an issue,then,either;the poll+sides of eye are best tempered very high or even annealed anyway....

Neat stuff,Mecha,thanks again:)
 
jake pogg said:
So,they're in a way of an antagonist to each other,FeC and Ti...

Explosion bonding is Way cool!:)...a thermite reaction-built axe!:)

Once at work i got to help the mechanics explosion-braze these negative terminals to our generator skids...(They let me pull the trigger on one-that was Cool!:).That bond created steel-to -bronze was hard-core.
It's actually a somehow easily overlooked fact-the bond achieved by brazing is not too far off,numbers wise,from arc-welded strengh #'s...(40 000-60 000 or sumpin pretty serious).

Not sure if by machined fit you meant dry-fit,or for brazing,both would have a place i suppose.Very early on people brazed or soldered iron parts with copper-based alloy;strong joint,looks fantastic etched....

HT's not an issue,then,either;the poll+sides of eye are best tempered very high or even annealed anyway....

Neat stuff,Mecha,thanks again:)
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Super cool, Jake Pogg. Yes I was thinking a tight joint that was maybe brazed, but it was only a murmur that I heard about brazing ti to steel, not sure if it's real.

Titanium in small amounts can be an alloying element within steel, and iron in small amounts is a very important alloying element in titanium, but the two won't weld together! A friend of mine @nighthaxan who is really clever at forge welding various alloys together tried hard to get a beta ti alloy to stick to steel, by taking advantage of the high-temperature BCC crystal phase of ti that matches the lower temperature crystal phase of steel (in theory), but without success.
 
Wow,Mecha,all that is fascinating stuff...Thanks for sharing,even a glimpse into this level of the "workings" is much appreciated...
Bi-metallism without any doubt has a future.The industrial application has been with us,of course,since time immemorial(micro-blades embedded in wood or bone and onwards),but just aesthetically there's Something to it!:)...Look at that lasting popularity of steel pattern-welding,et c.
It's the Contrast,may be,that people generally find attractive.And if so,then any number of possibilities present themselves nowadays,with the hi-tech options we have now.
Possibly,a very precise mechanical locking joint between the steel and ti;or a contrast between the CNC precision and the hand-forged texture of a vintage axe;or even an addition of a dissimilar filler-metal in a regular/machined or an amorphous/organic/cast configuration...
I'd not be surprised if an eventual FeC+Ti axe would find it's appreciative audience...Which is actually what this thread is about,eh!:)
Yep,the potential for the Cool-Factor is vast here...:)
 
I would see interesting potential in a steel head or bit mated to a titanium handle. Seems like some kind of dovetail mortise would be great with some heavy duty riveting or tube flaring
 
jake pogg said:
So,they're in a way of an antagonist to each other,FeC and Ti...

Explosion bonding is Way cool!:)...a thermite reaction-built axe!:)

Once at work i got to help the mechanics explosion-braze these negative terminals to our generator skids...(They let me pull the trigger on one-that was Cool!:).That bond created steel-to -bronze was hard-core.
It's actually a somehow easily overlooked fact-the bond achieved by brazing is not too far off,numbers wise,from arc-welded strengh #'s...(40 000-60 000 or sumpin pretty serious).

Not sure if by machined fit you meant dry-fit,or for brazing,both would have a place i suppose.Very early on people brazed or soldered iron parts with copper-based alloy;strong joint,looks fantastic etched....

HT's not an issue,then,either;the poll+sides of eye are best tempered very high or even annealed anyway....

Neat stuff,Mecha,thanks again:)
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I think it's about 70000 PSI at the upper end for silver brazing which is weld strength for a lot of standard mig or stick applications. How well it really works would come down to joint design.

That said, a cast bronze body with a Ti insert blade might be a cool and easy(ish) way to go. Kind of a Flotaxe http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-floating-axe.1156508/ only in a bronze age/space age materials mashup with a hickory slip fit handle.
 
It is all interesting and novel for sure, but not necessary. I still think that just a plain ole' ti alloy hatchet in the right alloy and design would be useful and work well just on it's own with no steel needed, and intend to find out eventually. Unfortunately making a hatchet head from ti is more of a tough problem than making a big knife blade! :D
 
What?!?!? You mean you can't just heat it up, knock a handle drift through it and forge it to shape? ;)
 
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