To Baton or Not to Baton that's the question!

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OBX351 said:
A micro fold is not a failure or a indication of bad material. Micro folds happen when the edge rolls during use. It's not a defect. A better indication of a defect or poor heat treat would be chipping or a breakage under "normal" use conditions.

Several years ago I went to S!K knives with some of my GSO that needed sharpening. Guy showed me the micro folds in the knives and explained what they were. He then sharpened them for me and had NO concerns. Believe me he would have simply given me a new knife if he thought the blade was compromised. One of the knives I brought to Guy is in the pictures that start this thread, my 7/7 that I bought over 2 years ago. I've put my 7/7 to hard use, batoning, chopping, carving and cutting mostly wood that is very hard and it's never had a chip or a failure. It's had it's share of micro folds but I simply stroped them out or it was sent back to S!K for re-sharpening (at least 3 other times). This is the same with my ALL of my GSOs and to that matter all of my Busses, Fallknivens, Battle Horse Knives, LT Wright Knives, Vipers, etc..

Also, and I should have put this at the start of the thread, I believe chopping is harder or is at least as hard on a blade as batoning. I would take odds that chopping puts as much or more lateral stress on the blade edge than batoning. I've seen more videos of blade failures due to chopping than anything else that would be considered "normal" use and I've never seen one video of a failure due to batoning.
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And that is how you discriminate for quality: At one end you get chipping from too much fragility/brittleness in the material (as apparently some Fallkniven have), at the other end you get micro folds from chopping into non-hard woods... Discriminating for quality is finding a knife that will sneak its way in between these two types of failures... My Neeley SA9 for instance was on the micro-chipping side, my Chris Reeve Jereboam was on the micro-fold side, until I sharpened it through the machining-burned layers after ten-twenty sharpenings or so (same for my RJ Martin "Blackbird").

Micro folds mean the edge material could not hold in check momentary lateral forces, and the bending also means the edge material is now weaker at its most fragile point, even if you straighten it out.

I have knives with thousand of chops in years-old dead dried Maple, very hard stuff, and they have never shown any micro-folds despite the hits sometimes leaning the blade. My Randall Model 12 will do hundreds or even thousands of chops in dried wood with no visible damage. The edge is an extremely thin 0.020" behind the edge, with around 10 degrees per side.

I've often wondered how Busse achieved their legendary toughness, and I always suspected this was achieved with a tendency to do micro-folds and poor edge-holding. What you say about Busses commonly getting micro-folds in wood confirms what I suspected all along: It is sub-standard steel.

This is all the more egregious when you consider that I get no micro-folds in my Randalls in hundreds of chops at 0.020" and 10 degrees per side, when the Busse edges you mention apparently do get them at something like 0.060" and 15-20 degrees per side... Amazing...

Sure you can straighten micro-folds and get them to say put for quite a bit of use: Most cutting in history was probably done with wire edges... But that doesn't mean this qualifies as "good"...

I had a $2000 RJ Martin in S30V that after twenty sharpenings it finally stopped doing micro-folds, even at the later much thinner angles: This indicates micro-folding on wood is not normal, even at very thin angles, and that the metal can do better if it is fine steel and given a chance to wear beyond the machine-burned layer...

If Busses/S!K etc get micro-folds while chopping wood, perhaps you should consider getting back to quality 440B or C, or sharpening them a lot until you get through the burned-out machining layer...

If the micro-folds occur only from the batoning process, and not from chopping, then batoning is a dumb idea.

The idea you can get to a pristine "dry" inner wood from large rotten trunks lying on the ground is beyond absurd: In a real forest, anything really big on the ground (over 4") that is rotten on the outside will be unuseable altogether... This is because big logs soak up a lot of humidity in the shadows of the forest, so much so that they don't have time to fully dry before getting soaked again. That is why most of the really dry stuff that is dead is the smaller diameter stuff, and usually under 3", like the lower dead branches mentioned above. This is the reality of real woods where everything is in the shadows.

Another thing is, in the woods near where I live, there is not a single square inch of straight level ground anywhere either, which makes any batoning a rather tiresome proposition...: Just finding a suitable un-rotten baton and shaping it would be a major ordeal...

Though I'll admit I've never tried batoning because the woods I saw seem so incredibly batoning-adverse. I can't wait to see if my benchmark Randall Model 12 develops micro-fold wire edges from it...

If it does, I think batoning fans would be better advised to confine their survival activities to the desert, or their backyards...

Gaston
 
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Personally I think discretion is the answer on both topics.
Nearly every knife on the market can handle some sort of batoning, but discretion is definitely needed. I have used traditionals, "tactical" folders and partial tanged knives to split lumber, but I chose pieces that they could handle.
As for fires, if it's green or wet outside, go for it. If you're in a ridiculously dry area, don't even think about it.
 
Gaston444 said:
And that is how you discriminate for quality: At one end you get chipping from too much fragility/brittleness in the material (as apparently some Fallkniven have), at the other end you get micro folds from chopping into non-hard woods... Discriminating for quality is finding a knife that will sneak its way in between these two types of failures... My Neeley SA9 for instance was on the micro-chipping side, my Chris Reeve Jereboam was on the micro-fold side, until I sharpened it through the machining-burned layers after ten-twenty sharpenings or so (same for my RJ Martin "Blackbird").

Micro folds mean the edge material could not hold in check momentary lateral forces, and the bending also means the edge material is now weaker at its most fragile point, even if you straighten it out.

I have knives with thousand of chops in years-old dead dried Maple, very hard stuff, and they have never shown any micro-folds despite the hits sometimes leaning the blade. My Randall Model 12 will do hundreds or even thousands of chops in dried wood with no visible damage. The edge is an extremely thin 0.020" behind the edge, with around 10 degrees per side.

I've often wondered how Busse achieved their legendary toughness, and I always suspected this was achieved with a tendency to do micro-folds and poor edge-holding. What you say about Busses commonly getting micro-folds in wood confirms what I suspected all along: It is sub-standard steel.

This is all the more egregious when you consider that I get no micro-folds in my Randalls in hundreds of chops at 0.020" and 10 degrees per side, when the Busse edges you mention apparently do get them at something like 0.060" and 15-20 degrees per side... Amazing...

Sure you can straighten micro-folds and get them to say put for quite a bit of use: Most cutting in history was probably done with wire edges... But that doesn't mean this qualifies as "good"...

I had a $2000 RJ Martin in S30V that after twenty sharpenings it finally stopped doing micro-folds, even at the later much thinner angles: This indicates micro-folding on wood is not normal, even at very thin angles, and that the metal can do better if it is fine steel and given a chance to wear beyond the machine-burned layer...

If Busses/S!K etc get micro-folds while chopping wood, perhaps you should consider getting back to quality 440B or C, or sharpening them a lot until you get through the burned-out machining layer...

If the micro-folds occur only from the batoning process, and not from chopping, then batoning is a dumb idea.

The idea you can get to a pristine "dry" inner wood from large rotten trunks lying on the ground is beyond absurd: In a real forest, anything really big on the ground (over 4") that is rotten on the outside will be unuseable altogether... This is because big logs soak up a lot of humidity in the shadows of the forest, so much so that they don't have time to fully dry before getting soaked again. That is why most of the really dry stuff that is dead is the smaller diameter stuff, and usually under 3", like the lower dead branches mentioned above. This is the reality of real woods where everything is in the shadows.

Another thing is, in the woods near where I live, there is not a single square inch of straight level ground anywhere either, which makes any batoning a rather tiresome proposition...: Just finding a suitable un-rotten baton and shaping it would be a major ordeal...

Though I'll admit I've never tried batoning because the woods I saw seem so incredibly batoning-adverse. I can't wait to see if my benchmark Randall Model 12 develops micro-fold wire edges from it...

If it does, I think batoning fans would be better advised to confine their survival activities to the desert, or their backyards...

Gaston
Click to expand...

I am not trying to get into a pissing match and I am not an expert but Guy didn't think micro folds were an indication of an issue/problem with the steel or blade. He just put them on his belt and re-sharpened them for me.
 
Maybe you should left this thread closed, albeit inadvertently, after all :D
 
Casinostocks said:
Maybe you should left this thread closed, albeit inadvertently, after all :D
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Ha! :)
I'm sure he knew that he was setting himself up for the "con" opinion when he started the thread.
Knives are tools, and unless you borrowed it from a friend I think you ought to do what you want with it.
If you absolutely break it, the warranty covers most scenarios.
If you just ding the edge then I say sharp it up and get back to work.
The only way the knife stays pristine is if you never use it.
 
OBX351 said:
I am not trying to get into a pissing match and I am not an expert but Guy didn't think micro folds were an indication of an issue/problem with the steel or blade. He just put them on his belt and re-sharpened them for me.
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NOT!!!! Well, maybe,,,NOT!!:D:D
 
So, based on one person's limited anecdotal testimony, INFI is "substandard" steel (although you yourself attest to the perils of final edge grinding) and we should go back to 440B and 440C.

And anyone batoning is fit to be looked down on - Kochanski, Mears, Hawke, Stroud, Canterbury, Hood, and Wiseman - backyard commandos all. I should like to see you tell that to the Gunnery Sgt. who taught me, but he died in Vietnam being a backyard commando.

I take it the statement is meant to excite controversy and argument. There's a name for such behavior, but we can avoid falling to your level by sticking to the topic and treating each other with respect.
 
I keep my edges on my knives very sharp. If they do the work they are going to pick up damage, all depends on the forces against hard materials they encounter when at work.... grit, stones or rocks. GSO's edges seem to take minimum damage and over two years use I've had to do the minimum maintenance. I've got other knives that need far more maintenance, others that I have far less confidence in. Doesn't mean they are bad knives.

Busse knives are very well made and have a following for good reason. They are very good knives. I don't like their weight or their grinds, but its those attributes which makes them so robust and reputation is built on. Just not for me, too much of a truck knife for me.
I prefer Survive Knives choices in steel, heat treatment, grinds, edges, design and all important overall package weight. Tough enough and with a keen cutting edge. I happen to keep batoning with a knife to the minimum, I'm confident that GSO's are well up to more than I ever do. At least they are great cutters and tough to boot.
I know Ray Mears and was taught by Lofty Wiseman. However, we all find our own style as we find what works from trying things for ourselves. Nice kit is great... if you actually have it with you...

OH, last point. If you do a heap of work with hand tool regularly then you learn what they are good at and how to keep them going by good maintenance. Really top notch tools or ones that are just fair doesn't actually matter as the work still needs doing until finished. Nice if the tools seem to help get the workload done rather than make it harder work than it should be.
 
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Cool thread. The importance of batoning was illustrated to me on a canoe trip through the boundary waters. We ended up getting rained on while in between camp sites, and then having to wade through water with our canoe on our heads, soaking us further. The sun was going down and temps were dropping fast when we got to a site, and everything was wet. One could say we were unprepped. My girlfriend and I at the time were just two typical recreational canoe campers, devoid of any prepping/survival/bushcraft knowledge. I got a fire going by batoning through some thick wood to get to the dry center. I obviously did not gather "rotten trunks lying on the ground," though I was a complete fire starting newb. I had brought my KaBar BK9 just because it was cool. I never dreamed I'd need it. As we got warm under the tarp next to the fire, I realized how unlikely it would have been for me to have gotten a fire without batoning. Everything was literally soaked, and a large portion of the branches around were rotten anyway, because the boundary waters area never dries out. I actually got nervous, as I realized that I had simply not known enough to be nervous in the first place. It would have been a miserable night without a fire, and possibly life-threatening. The knife held up great, though the coating got dinged up. I never thought to check it for micro-whatevers. I can't really imagine trying to find a knife that neither bends nor chips when batoning. Not because of the fact that it doesn't exist, but because I don't care. I just like doing stuff outside. I like Bussse knives because they remind me of being a kid, and there are more real use tests of those knives successfully performing well than I could watch/read about for the remainder of my life. I could have gotten a GSO-10 at the dirt cheap prototype price back then (and I sure did want one), but got instead the backpack that made the canoe trip possible, so I don't kick myself too hard for that. I'll always baton, because I have been in a situation where I had to baton, and I might as well do things as I may have to do them in the future. Also, its fun and weight considerate for backpackers.
 
GREENJACKET said:
I keep my edges on my knives very sharp. If they do the work they are going to pick up damage, all depends on the forces against hard materials they encounter when at work.... grit, stones or rocks. GSO's edges seem to take minimum damage and over two years use I've had to do the minimum maintenance. I've got other knives that need far more maintenance, others that I have far less confidence in. Doesn't mean they are bad knives.

Busse knives are very well made and have a following for good reason. They are very good knives. I don't like their weight or their grinds, but its those attributes which makes them so robust and reputation is built on. Just not for me, too much of a truck knife for me.
I prefer Survive Knives choices in steel, heat treatment, grinds, edges, design and all important overall package weight. Tough enough and with a keen cutting edge. I happen to keep batoning with a knife to the minimum, I'm confident that GSO's are well up to more than I ever do. At least they are great cutters and tough to boot.
I know Ray Mears and was taught by Lofty Wiseman. However, we all find our own style as we find what works from trying things for ourselves. Nice kit is great... if you actually have it with you...

OH, last point. If you do a heap of work with hand tool regularly then you learn what they are good at and how to keep them going by good maintenance. Really top notch tools or ones that are just fair doesn't actually matter as the work still needs doing until finished. Nice if the tools seem to help get the workload done rather than make it harder work than it should be.
Click to expand...

100%!!
Your last paragraph are words to live by. Test out your tools and learn their capabilities and what it'll take to keep them performing.
 
infraction for rude and insulting behavior
Old thread, but I forgot about it and only came across it now...

OBX351 said:
A micro fold is not a failure or a indication of bad material. Micro folds happen when the edge rolls during use. It's not a defect. A better indication of a defect or poor heat treat would be chipping or a breakage under "normal" use conditions.

Several years ago I went to S!K knives with some of my GSO that needed sharpening. Guy showed me the micro folds in the knives and explained what they were. He then sharpened them for me and had NO concerns..
Click to expand...

He has no concern about a lot of things apparently. But while I'll admit I haven't seen a micro-rolled edge fail completely by bending fully of alignment (it seems too small to really do that: The roll gets taller instead, but only slightly more misaligned), an edge that doesn't micro-roll is still demonstrably better, and will cut better...

OBX351 said:
Also, and I should have put this at the start of the thread, I believe chopping is harder or is at least as hard on a blade as batoning. I would take odds that chopping puts as much or more lateral stress on the blade edge than batoning. I've seen more videos of blade failures due to chopping than anything else that would be considered "normal" use and I've never seen one video of a failure due to batoning.
Click to expand...

Congratulation, this is probably the biggest nonsense I have ever read on Bladesforums. In the real world, Batoning is almost the only source of all major blade failures. Certainly upwards of 90%. This is so widely understood, and uncontested, I am utterly amazed you would even try this line of argument...

Your last sentence is especially amazing.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
Old thread, but I forgot about it and only came across it now...



He has no concern about a lot of things apparently. But while I'll admit I haven't seen a micro-rolled edge fail completely by bending fully of alignment (it seems too small to really do that: The roll gets taller instead, but only slightly more misaligned), an edge that doesn't micro-roll is still demonstrably better, and will cut better...



Congratulation, this is probably the biggest nonsense I have ever read on Bladesforums. In the real world, Batoning is almost the only source of all major blade failures. Certainly upwards of 90%. This is so widely understood, and uncontested, I am utterly amazed you would even try this line of argument...

Your last sentence is especially amazing.

Gaston
Click to expand...

I've batoned literally hundreds of fixed blades through seasoned knotty hardwoods and have YET to break a blade. Over 30 years of knife usage here. Started batoning the old Hickory blades back in the day, never broke one. Hell, I tried to break a 1095 blade one time, failed miserably. Handed it off to the next person, they failed miserably as well. All we got was severe coating wear. The funny thing was, it still had a nice sharp working edge on it. So your statement of breaking blades while batoning is speculation at best...
 
Gaston444 said:
Old thread, but I forgot about it and only came across it now...



He has no concern about a lot of things apparently. But while I'll admit I haven't seen a micro-rolled edge fail completely by bending fully of alignment (it seems too small to really do that: The roll gets taller instead, but only slightly more misaligned), an edge that doesn't micro-roll is still demonstrably better, and will cut better...



Congratulation, this is probably the biggest nonsense I have ever read on Bladesforums. In the real world, Batoning is almost the only source of all major blade failures. Certainly upwards of 90%. This is so widely understood, and uncontested, I am utterly amazed you would even try this line of argument...

Your last sentence is especially amazing.

Gaston
Click to expand...

So you took Thanksgiving Day to pull up a year and a half old thread to call out a member that hasn't posted in four or five months. Complete trolling nonsense :thumbsdown:

I hope that post is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
 
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