Tookie Williams
- Thread starter shane justice
- Start date
- Joined
- May 18, 1999
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- 15,395
One of the references I read about Tookies situation talked about how he showed no remorse for the murders. If indeed he didn't commit them then why should he show any remorse? I sure as hell wouldn't, even if it meant the death sentence for me like it did Tookie.
Having dealt some with the ODC and trying to get a Sweatlodge set up in a local prison for the ndn inmates I got something of an education.
Inmates lie. And 99.99% of them are guilty as charged. The guards are privy to conversations not heard by outsiders.
Also some inmates prefer life in the prisons over life outside the walls.
Even the self-proclaimed innocent ones talk about how their victim(s) squirmed or begged for their lives before the trigger was pulled or the knife inserted, actually they brag about their actions.
Such conversations can't be used in a court of law because they are hearsay and if they should happen to be taped they still wouldn't be permitted because it would violate the inmate's rights.
The biggest problem I see though is that Tookie wouldn't talk about the Crips, their organization, method of operandi, membership, rules of enforcement, nada.
Had Tookie have taken an active role in trying to disband the Crips by giving up the information he had then things might have been different and he just might have had his sentence commuted to life without parole.
Personally if I had to be locked up for any length of time and especially if I was convicted of murder and had absolutely no chance of getting out of prison I would prefer to die.
Life without freedom is not a life IMO.
It still rankles me that we gave Timothy McVeigh exactly what he wanted. Timothy wanted to die instead of rotting away in prison.
By granting Timothy's wishes we didn't punish him.
Timothy sure as hell didn't spend enough time behind bars.
In the end I think Tookie got what he really wanted as well.
Tookie gave it his best shot in his mind and failed. Had Tookie succeeded in getting out there is no telling what the Crips would've become with their old leader behind them once again.
Having dealt some with the ODC and trying to get a Sweatlodge set up in a local prison for the ndn inmates I got something of an education.
Inmates lie. And 99.99% of them are guilty as charged. The guards are privy to conversations not heard by outsiders.
Also some inmates prefer life in the prisons over life outside the walls.
Even the self-proclaimed innocent ones talk about how their victim(s) squirmed or begged for their lives before the trigger was pulled or the knife inserted, actually they brag about their actions.
Such conversations can't be used in a court of law because they are hearsay and if they should happen to be taped they still wouldn't be permitted because it would violate the inmate's rights.
The biggest problem I see though is that Tookie wouldn't talk about the Crips, their organization, method of operandi, membership, rules of enforcement, nada.
Had Tookie have taken an active role in trying to disband the Crips by giving up the information he had then things might have been different and he just might have had his sentence commuted to life without parole.
Personally if I had to be locked up for any length of time and especially if I was convicted of murder and had absolutely no chance of getting out of prison I would prefer to die.
Life without freedom is not a life IMO.
It still rankles me that we gave Timothy McVeigh exactly what he wanted. Timothy wanted to die instead of rotting away in prison.
By granting Timothy's wishes we didn't punish him.
Timothy sure as hell didn't spend enough time behind bars.
In the end I think Tookie got what he really wanted as well.
Tookie gave it his best shot in his mind and failed. Had Tookie succeeded in getting out there is no telling what the Crips would've become with their old leader behind them once again.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2001
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- 20,978
if you believe that people should get their justice here on earth, don't read this...
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Publication:Arkansas Democrat-Gazette; Date:Sunday, December 11, 2005 ; Section:Arkansas; Page:23
Accused couple killed themselves, police say
Rogers pair charged in child-sex case
BY CHARLIE MORASCH ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE
ROGERS A couple charged last week with childsex crimes including incest and possession of child pornography committed suicide at their home Saturday evening, police said.
Joe Billy Canoy, 41, and Shawna Lee Anne Canoy, 32, were found dead of suspected asphyxiation after a neighbor, thinking something was wrong, broke down the door to the Canoy home at 2310 W. Beech St., police said.
The neighbor found the Canoys inside a vehicle in the garage about 5 p.m., said Kelley Cradduck, spokesman for the Rogers Police Department.
Its pretty clear-cut, Cradduck said. We dont believe there is any foul play. Cradduck wouldnt say if police found a suicide note.
The couple had posted bond and left the Benton County jail Friday after being arrested Wednesday, Cradduck said. They each were released on $75,000 bond, a spokesman at the Benton County jail said.
According to an affidavit filed by the Benton County prosecuting attorneys office Friday, police began investigating the couple Wednesday after one of Joe Canoys coworkers told authorities he recently visited the couples home and saw evidence of drug use and sexual activity with minors.
Canoy was the manager of a Lowell pest control company. A spokesman for the company could not be reached Saturday night.
The employee told police that he and his wife had gone to dinner with the Canoys on Dec. 2 and had been invited to their home afterward. During their visit, the employee said Joe Canoy showed him a 1-pound brick of marijuana and gave him a tour of the house. The employee said he saw several photographs of Shawna Canoy and Joe Canoy engaged in sexual activity together and with other partners.
Joe Canoy asked the employee if he would be interested in swinging, or swapping sexual partners, but he declined. Canoy continued the tour, and the employee said he saw several photos depicting the Canoys involved in sexual acts with mi- nors, including one showing a 19-year-old woman and Shawna Canoy having sexual contact with a minor.
Rogers police obtained a warrant, searched the couples home Wednesday evening and found framed pictures on the wall and computer screensavers showing sex acts between the Canoys and minors.
Officers found framed photos of girls as young as 12 having sexual contact with the Canoys, digital pictures of infants and children engaged in sexual acts, and videotapes showing sex acts between the Canoys while a family member watched.
Photos of a 17-year-old male and a 13-year-old male also were found.
They had a whole bunch of porn, Cradduck said. Not only homemade but from the Internet. A 13-year-old girl that police identified as being in some of the photos told police that the Canoys regularly let her drink tequila and pressured her into taking photographs of sexual acts.
Rogers police are looking for other victims, Cradduck said.
Joe Canoy was charged with engaging children in sexually explicit conduct for use in visual or print medium, pandering or possessing visual or print medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child, computer exploitation of a child and second-degree sexual assault, all felonies.
Shawna Canoy was charged with incest, engaging children in sexually explicit conduct for use in visual or print medium, pandering or possessing visual or print medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child, computer exploitation of a child and second-degree sexual assault.
Joe Canoy was convicted in Washington County in 1994 on two counts of third-degree battery.
Information for this article was contributed by Brook Reinhard of the Benton County Daily Record.
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Publication:Arkansas Democrat-Gazette; Date:Sunday, December 11, 2005 ; Section:Arkansas; Page:23
Accused couple killed themselves, police say
Rogers pair charged in child-sex case
BY CHARLIE MORASCH ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE
ROGERS A couple charged last week with childsex crimes including incest and possession of child pornography committed suicide at their home Saturday evening, police said.
Joe Billy Canoy, 41, and Shawna Lee Anne Canoy, 32, were found dead of suspected asphyxiation after a neighbor, thinking something was wrong, broke down the door to the Canoy home at 2310 W. Beech St., police said.
The neighbor found the Canoys inside a vehicle in the garage about 5 p.m., said Kelley Cradduck, spokesman for the Rogers Police Department.
Its pretty clear-cut, Cradduck said. We dont believe there is any foul play. Cradduck wouldnt say if police found a suicide note.
The couple had posted bond and left the Benton County jail Friday after being arrested Wednesday, Cradduck said. They each were released on $75,000 bond, a spokesman at the Benton County jail said.
According to an affidavit filed by the Benton County prosecuting attorneys office Friday, police began investigating the couple Wednesday after one of Joe Canoys coworkers told authorities he recently visited the couples home and saw evidence of drug use and sexual activity with minors.
Canoy was the manager of a Lowell pest control company. A spokesman for the company could not be reached Saturday night.
The employee told police that he and his wife had gone to dinner with the Canoys on Dec. 2 and had been invited to their home afterward. During their visit, the employee said Joe Canoy showed him a 1-pound brick of marijuana and gave him a tour of the house. The employee said he saw several photographs of Shawna Canoy and Joe Canoy engaged in sexual activity together and with other partners.
Joe Canoy asked the employee if he would be interested in swinging, or swapping sexual partners, but he declined. Canoy continued the tour, and the employee said he saw several photos depicting the Canoys involved in sexual acts with mi- nors, including one showing a 19-year-old woman and Shawna Canoy having sexual contact with a minor.
Rogers police obtained a warrant, searched the couples home Wednesday evening and found framed pictures on the wall and computer screensavers showing sex acts between the Canoys and minors.
Officers found framed photos of girls as young as 12 having sexual contact with the Canoys, digital pictures of infants and children engaged in sexual acts, and videotapes showing sex acts between the Canoys while a family member watched.
Photos of a 17-year-old male and a 13-year-old male also were found.
They had a whole bunch of porn, Cradduck said. Not only homemade but from the Internet. A 13-year-old girl that police identified as being in some of the photos told police that the Canoys regularly let her drink tequila and pressured her into taking photographs of sexual acts.
Rogers police are looking for other victims, Cradduck said.
Joe Canoy was charged with engaging children in sexually explicit conduct for use in visual or print medium, pandering or possessing visual or print medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child, computer exploitation of a child and second-degree sexual assault, all felonies.
Shawna Canoy was charged with incest, engaging children in sexually explicit conduct for use in visual or print medium, pandering or possessing visual or print medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child, computer exploitation of a child and second-degree sexual assault.
Joe Canoy was convicted in Washington County in 1994 on two counts of third-degree battery.
Information for this article was contributed by Brook Reinhard of the Benton County Daily Record.
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^Too bad. Sickos like that deserve to be repeatedly anally raped by huge prison apes before being allowed to die, taste of their own medicine. I saw a documentary on disc channel, child molesters really get it bad in jails. They may have to put them in a separate area to prevent the other convicts from killing/raping/torturing them. IMO, they should just be left for the others to do as they want.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
- 1,861
munk said:
The frightening thing to me is how much of our population continues to put so much of their control of their lives outside themselves.
"They did this to me."
"I have no choice..."
Yeah, sometimes it is hard, but when people live their lives blaiming others for their condition -- their own lack of success -- it breeds the kind of resentment evidenced by the King riots. AND it makes people like Tookie into some kind of Robin Hood / martyr misfits.
Maybe Tookie did what many people would like to do. Slash out against society. Certainly what happened to King was wrong, but to riot -- to destroy homes and businesses -- was horribly more wrong! Acts of desparation striking out against people who had no part in the King beating.
I have not taken the time to really read about Tookie, but it seems pretty likely that he was responsible for the deaths of at least four innocent people, personally AND the deaths of thousands more through his gang connections.
In my book, just for that he deserves to die. Remove his sorry butt from the gene pool. And let others know the same fate awaits them. I almost wish that the capital punishments were public broadcast to let killers know this is not a "noble" way to die.
A bad guy. That he turned Christian is a benefit. God can forgive him and welcome him into the fold. Yeah, we are told to speak good of the dead. He is dead. Good!
I would rather, MUCH rather have Tookie running with God than running with the Crips.
If the European Community doesn't like the death penalty, so what? Austria wants to revoke Swartzenegger's citizenship? I thought he was an American. I don't agree with everything the "Governator" does, but I am with him on this. And I ain't lost nothing in Austria.
I think that the death penalty is appropriate in this case and personally would like to see it used more often on criminals, deserving criminals who have taken innocent lives.
I look at Tookie's picture and wonder what his victims thought as he was killing them? Would they want him dead for what he did to them?
If I have my facts wrong in this case about Tookie, I apologize. As I said earlier, I have not been keeping up with Tookie's situation, but I still support the death penalty and I have very little patience with people who allow --- yes ALLOW --- society to limit their success, their personal freedom, and then blindly and stupidly strike out.
Get a life! Don't take one from some innocent person.
Read Victor Frankl. He had it worse than any of us could ever imagine. But he had his freedom.
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- Mar 26, 2002
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- 1,861
cliff355 said:
I am glad to be moving away from this Tookie stuff. Let's hope it is over, dead, burned and scattered.
I thought a lot of the pharisee case was built on Christ having a parade without a permit.
Actually it looks to me like it was planned out by God all along. This can bring up the Christian hot potato of all ages: If God has it all planned out before hand, do we have free will? If we do not have free will, then we have no redemption because we can not choose to follow Christ.
And certainly Christ's execution and rising from the dead is a central point of the Christian religion.
DRAT! Now I feel 'moved' to start a religious thread. But whether I do or not, I want to remand any earlier ugly remarks I may have made about Spark splitting us off into the Cantina.
I want to say a very big THANKS to Sparks! I suppose that nothing here is off topic unless it violates . . . . . Hmmm. Maybe nothing is off topic, here.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
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- 5,594
This very point in question has been the central focus of my belief-analysis this last year or so.
I will agree that Christ's execution and rising from the dead is a central point of the Christian religion.
I have come to understand that the execution and resurrection are not a central point of the teachings of Jesus.
I believe that the resurrection was merely a myth constructed by the writers of the new testament. It was a beautiful story and inspired and comforted millions if not billions of people for 1600 years.
Jesus death story was brutal and awful and the disciples did the best they could to make it into something uplifiting.
Here's the thing that makes it ok to see the truth: Jesus' message and teachings are totally unaffected by his death.
Jesus didnt talk about magic tricks, he talked about action: Doing what you can to help those in need without judgment. No bias whatsoever.
Eating together with anyone, sharing with everyone regardless of their race or affiliation or job, etc...
This message, the message that Jesus preached, seems to be obscured by the magic and I have come to be a believer in a new kind of Christianity.
At least, to me it's new.
Im not fully ready to even try it.
But, for the first time in my life I think I finally understand the message of Jesus Christ and it has nothing to do with the spirit world.
Danny, you say Jesus did not believe in 'magic tricks', and that the ressurection is a concocted myth.
That's all very good- as it goes- it is a logical position for you to have.
Whether or not Jesus was ressurected though, does not address what Jesus himself did. He allowed himself to be painfully, horribly crucified for a 'myth'. He could have made a partial renuncification of his beliefs- and lived.
The 'prophets' themselves were largely put to death. They too could have rennounced.
You've missed in your logic one of the most fascinating and significant areas surrounded the entire 'myth'; not only that man was willing to believe that God himself would come down to earth, suffer as a man, be killed, and still forgive us, but that Jesus died for the same belief.
The importance of this cannot be downplayed. Jesus teachings are not 'totally unaffected by his death' but are instrumental to it.
munk
That's all very good- as it goes- it is a logical position for you to have.
Whether or not Jesus was ressurected though, does not address what Jesus himself did. He allowed himself to be painfully, horribly crucified for a 'myth'. He could have made a partial renuncification of his beliefs- and lived.
The 'prophets' themselves were largely put to death. They too could have rennounced.
You've missed in your logic one of the most fascinating and significant areas surrounded the entire 'myth'; not only that man was willing to believe that God himself would come down to earth, suffer as a man, be killed, and still forgive us, but that Jesus died for the same belief.
The importance of this cannot be downplayed. Jesus teachings are not 'totally unaffected by his death' but are instrumental to it.
munk
People commiting suicide in war are not the same as a premeditated prolonged acceptance of the most gruesome torture. A high percentage of those in Iraq dying have had blood tested positive for opiates.
So, some in our forum wish to compare the suffering of Jesus to a attacker on the battlefield? That's certainly fine with me. The logic of it is none that I personally could accept, intellectually or otherwise. I don't recall any of our Al Queda captives being put on the cross and lingering for many hours.
EVery person makes his own mind about Jesus. To call the 'passion play' a contrived myth, or magic, however, flys in the face of the power the historical event has had over man for centuries.
I think also, intwined as it is in the concept of 'grace' again supercedes sacrafise myths.
Edit- I hope I haven't discouraged this conversation. No one is going to blast anyone for 'daring' to say these things about Jesus.
munk
So, some in our forum wish to compare the suffering of Jesus to a attacker on the battlefield? That's certainly fine with me. The logic of it is none that I personally could accept, intellectually or otherwise. I don't recall any of our Al Queda captives being put on the cross and lingering for many hours.
EVery person makes his own mind about Jesus. To call the 'passion play' a contrived myth, or magic, however, flys in the face of the power the historical event has had over man for centuries.
I think also, intwined as it is in the concept of 'grace' again supercedes sacrafise myths.
Edit- I hope I haven't discouraged this conversation. No one is going to blast anyone for 'daring' to say these things about Jesus.
munk
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OK, new thread. Don't want to keep bringing up stuff on the same thread with Tookie. Would like to let that one be dead, burned and scattered.
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- Oct 19, 2005
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- 19,687
Danny,
I think you've said what I believe perfectly. Parts of the passion, just as parts of the old testament are more myth than fact. If you look at the political climate when the gospels were selected, and Rome was transformed into a Christian nation, you can see that the Popes were heavily influenced by the Emperor. His power over them and his offer of power to them can be seen in the gospels chosen, the location of the holidays on the calendar, the arrangement of the churches, etc. After years of persecution and martyrdom who could blame the popes for caving? All of this doesn't change the fact that its Jesus' teachings that have made him the most important philosopher in history. It is his teachings that I focus on, and not his ending. Personally I think he was stubborn, tired, and maybe a little insane at the ending. No offense intended to anyone there, but thats my view.
I think you've said what I believe perfectly. Parts of the passion, just as parts of the old testament are more myth than fact. If you look at the political climate when the gospels were selected, and Rome was transformed into a Christian nation, you can see that the Popes were heavily influenced by the Emperor. His power over them and his offer of power to them can be seen in the gospels chosen, the location of the holidays on the calendar, the arrangement of the churches, etc. After years of persecution and martyrdom who could blame the popes for caving? All of this doesn't change the fact that its Jesus' teachings that have made him the most important philosopher in history. It is his teachings that I focus on, and not his ending. Personally I think he was stubborn, tired, and maybe a little insane at the ending. No offense intended to anyone there, but thats my view.