Traditional Japanese Katana....Made with Tamahagane....How Much??

N

Nalapombu

Joined
Oct 26, 2001
Messages
303
Hey all,

I have watched a couple shows where they went and watched the entire process of making the special steel used by the very traditional sword makers in Japan to make their Katanas. It was just a fascinating thing to see. I don't own any swords, but have been interested in Japanese swords for a while.
I think it is something how they really cling to the traditions and materials that have been handed down for HUNDREDS of years. The elderly man that was the MASTER of the forge had been making that steel for something like 50+ years or something. He knew by his senses when more sand had to be added and if it was getting too hot and so forth.

I also really liked how just enough of that steel is parlayed out to the makers around Japan to turn into their art. Watching those polishers take those bits as small as a pinky fingernail of stone to polish out sections of those blades...just gives me more appreciation of how they do what they do with that steel in creating a beautiful Katana or other Japanese styled blade.


Now I know it has to be expensive, but, if I wanted to buy an AUTHENTIC Japanese Katana made in the ways of olden times and handed down through generations of sword makers, what do you think something like that would cost? Does anyone here own such a blade?

Do you think these very traditional makers frown on Americans buying and owning their swords? Just curious on that one.

Wouldn't it be something to travel to Japan, meet and talk with the maker and then see him at least start your sword?

What do you all think about this? Would you too love to have one of these blades?

How much do I need to save up?

Any other info on these swords or their creation....please add it. I really love reading and learning about this craft.

Thanks all

Nalajr
 
To be clear are you looking for a sword of recent manufacture, using traditional methods, or would you also take a 100+ yo sword made that way? Both are expensive but deals can sometimes be found on older swords . . . although those made by premier masters and/or made for nobles can cost more than houses.
 
Nalapombu........you might be interested in this video:

[video=youtube;nXbLyVpWsVM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM[/video]


It's in regards to Crucible Steel.

...and as I understand it, ancient Japanese swords are family heirlooms and not usually "up for sale" to anyone
 
I guess I should've been clear. It's doubtful that I could ever afford to own one of the heirloom swords that have been passed down and are hundreds of years old. Lets go for a modern one, that I talk with the maker and he makes it the way we decide on and so forth. You know, he's gotta wait for the steel and then get started on it. What would something like that cost?

Also, just for curiosity sake, what would a sword made in the last 200 years cost?


I'll watch that video. Thanks for the link.


Thanks all.

Nalajr
 
Check out the links pages on my site linked below in my sig file. Lots of legitimate dealers in antique Japanese swords. True Japanese swords are still around and available in the US and from Japan from several hundred to many thousands. Those made by current smiths are known as Shinsakuto and start at five figures up to 6 figures depending on the smiths reputation. No offense, but you need to learn a lot about Nihonto (true Japanese swords) before even thinking about buying one else you're likely to get stuck with a Chinese fake (not from dealers on my site). Don't even think about ebay - most (not all) "japanese sword" on that are Chinese fakes. Go to the links pages near the bottom of the opening page. If you just want something to play with, check out the Martial Arts links page - several functional, not traditionally made, Japanese type swords linked there.

Forgot to mention, check out the sales page on the Nihonto Message Board at:
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/index.php

Some of the most knowledgeable people in the field from all over the world are on NMB (myself included; I don't consider myself to be one of the most knowledgeable :-)

Rich

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm
 
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druid189 said:
OK...no idea on the cost.

....but if you are looking for a "traditional" Katana made similarly to old ones but are current production and "closest" to 'battle ready' as possible, I'd look at cheness cutlery http://www.chenessinc.com/katanas.htm
Click to expand...

+1, I was able to trade for a Cheness "Tenchi" a few months ago from a member here. Really happy with it.

I've also heard good things about Hanwei Practical and a few others, but only have experience with the Cheness.
 
From what you've said so far, you would be well served to ignore everything druid189 has said. Cheness is FAR from being legitimate nihonto. As much as I like the occasional Hanwei blade, they're also nothing like a traditionally made katana. If you just want a katana-like object made with modern processes, that's a different story. A simple search on this forum will suffice to illustrate that Americans can and do get traditional nihonto from japan, both modern ones, and antiques. Whether you have the budget for it, as one can easily spend tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars on Japanese swords, remains to be seen. Rich S, despite his modesty, is definitely one of the most knowledgeable members on this forum.

If you have a limited budget, or you decide you don't really need it to be made traditionally (and being "hand-forged, hand folded, and hand-sharpened" doesn't mean jack when it comes to being made traditionally), etc, your options will open up. What do you intend to do with it? Collector? Hang on wall and impress friends? Backyard cutting? Serious practice? Depending on budget, make, and intended use, you'll be looking in pretty widely disparate areas.
 
druid189 said:
Nalapombu........you might be interested in this video:

[video=youtube;nXbLyVpWsVM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM[/video]


It's in regards to Crucible Steel.

...and as I understand it, ancient Japanese swords are family heirlooms and not usually "up for sale" to anyone
Click to expand...

I have seen this before and love this. I wish they would have done a chem analysis of the blades recovered. I'd love to see what they have. Anyway, I would not doubt that the vikings in their vast travels to Asia brought back part of the secret of Tamahagane or Yu Gan which is the original Chinese name from which the Japanese also got their technology. I think the big difference between the viking swords and the Tamahagane/YuGan is that there is no reference to the Vikings ever performing multiple folds of their steel, so in essence theirs was a well made base steel with fine grain compared to everything else in the region. The Katana was hundreds of layers of that same pure steel. At least that is my understanding.

Here is a history of the Japanese sword.

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/tatara


Rich Chen(Zubeng) makes Katana's and for being real Tamahagane, his prices are not bad, in the $5k to $10k range I think, or it use to be.
 
GREAT VIDEO!!

If you watch the video you'll see that most of the Ulfberht swords examined are fakes. Only a few are real. Also I believe it was proved that the Vikings only worked the steel ingots instead of making the swords. The steel was made in Persia, norhtern Iran and brought back to Viking land. I really enjoyed that show


As for the Japanese swords....I doubt I'll ever have the money to have a REAL Tamahagane Japanese sword. It's fun to dream though. SO much info to learn and absorb though.


I am also fascinated by the missing 13th Century sword from Japan that was handed over to the American troops and whether it will ever show up again or it has been lost to history to the smelter or the sea. I think it's the HONJO MASAMUNE.

Nalajr
 
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That was awesome...thanks for the link.

You know I might not ever get to even hold one, but I hope and pray that I am able to at least 1 time in my life go to see a master like that in his element, practicing his craft. I could sit and watch that for hours. I only imagine what it would be like to witness in person and soak it all in. There is something profoundly beautiful and tranquil in watching a man in 2015 creating a sword with methods that were perfected 700 years ago!!

So much we don't know and understand in this modern age. I think what I like so much about the orient and their craft is that they hold so much reverence and respect for the ways of their elders and masters that came LONG before them. Imagine just learning for the day that you can be the master.....that might take 30 years. Here we can't get people to commit to learning for 4 years or even 2.

Its just breathtaking. I'd love to go right over there and hang out and watch him do his work. What a gift that would be.

Nalajr
 
Here is a narrative by Rich Chen that goes with the making of a katana.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?91862-HandMade-Real-HandMade-Katana-Sword

There are other videos that had been produced regarding the tatara of Japan and then a smith working with the steel. It is not so much that the methodology and information is obscure, rather the information is overlooked when approaching the subject matter. For instance the video about the Vikings. Both Ric and his "apprentice" (The Professor) are active on several boards. Here is a narrative with photos about a sword Kevin did.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...h-secrets-revealed!-(Finished-Pictures-added)

Cheers

GC
 
I am glad there are those with the will and patience to do that. I know I have neither, but am glad that I have gotten something from him.
 
Nalapombu said:
That was awesome...thanks for the link.
Click to expand...

You are in Texas, it is not that far a plane ride to go to the San Francisco Token Kai....is held this year between August 7-9.

http://ncjsc.org/SF_token_kai.htm

There you will see, hold and become immersed in all things Japanese sword. There are some TRULY exceptional pieces, museum quality, in perfect polish, and if you speak to the vendors politely, they will most certainly let you hold them....

As far as watching....it gets rather boring rather quickly. There are a number of swordsmiths in North America working in the traditions of Japan. You have many options. One of my favorites is Michael Bell, who was taught how to make swords from a 'smith and polisher from Japan. Michael offers a basic forging class, and he has one coming up in July.....for the price of an airline ticket to Japan, you could be learning how to do it yourself. Michael is someone I have known for over 20 years, he is quite skilled, patient and remains passionate about his art. It is entirely possible that you could not find a better teacher in the United States, and would be hard pressed to find someone BETTER in Japan.

You could have a very busy and satisfying summer if you want to. Put it on your bucket list.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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I had the opportunity to visit and talk with Dan Keffeler for a day last year. What an experience! I learned a lot from Dan, who is a great guy. One of the things he said that really stuck with me is that what makes a great sword is consistency of grain structure. Tamahagane was so special during that time period because it was a really consistent source of relatively clean and consistent metal, especially at the time. Doing things like folding the steel refined the grain structure and helped burn out impurities, which would weaken the sword, and if you started out with better metal, such as the crucible steel used in the Ulfberht swords, or tamahagane, etc, you'd end up with better swords. However, modern metallurgy renders that point largely moot, because modern steels are so much more refined to start with than even tamahagane. It's pretty, and a lot of work, but doesn't necessarily mean a better sword.
 
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