trouble getting an edge

Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
17
having recieved my new hone in the post I decided to sharpen the razors as they are becoming difficult to shave with, after reading evering everything I could get my hands on concerning sharpening procedures i was ready to give it a go . Well guess what they are worse than when I started. I read Sodak`s method with much interest(thank you ) but have a couple of questions ,being new to this game what is the sharpie method and also how do you just apply the weight of the razor evenly as you draw it accross the hone any other tips would greatly be appreciated
Kind regards Peter
PS the hone I purchased is an edgemaker from the USA . The availability of shaving equiptment here in Australia is rather limited
Ihave three razors ,I have wrecked two and am to scared to give the third a go
 
While the experts arrive, please try to give a more accurate description on how you are holding the razor , angle, pressure, and passing.


Try to make a diagram or take some pictures.
 
Sharpie is a brand of permanent marker here in the US. The sharpie method is simply using a marker to color the bevel, from the edge to the shoulder. When you sharpen, you should sharpen the marker color off evenly. If you are not sharpening a part of the edge, it becomes obvious by seeing the remainder of color from the marker.

Not being a gold member, I can't post pictures, but I'll try to explain a little better. Most instructions involve opening the straight razor so the handle and razor are one long straight line. Assuming that you are right handed, then hold the razor horizontally, say, with the edge away from you, and put it on the near side of the hone. The hone should be pointing straight away from you. It is critical to put the spine down, then gently rotate the razor until the edge is down. Never touch a razor to a hone unless the spine is touching first. Then gently and evenly stroke away from you, into the edge. When you get to the far end of the hone, rotate the razor in your fingers so the edge comes up off the hone. Lift the razor off, rotate (twirl) it so the edge comes up and over the spine, lay the razor back down, spine first then edge, and draw it to you. When you are drawing the razor either towards or away from you, make sure that you also start at the heel and draw it diagonally so at the end of the stroke you are honing the toe of it. That way, you hone the entire edge.

That's what most recommend. It doesn't work for me. As I'm moving the razor, I tend to inadvertantly drop my hand, and end up honing my razor on the edge of the hone. For such a thin edge, that's catastrophic. It bends it waaaay up, then on the return stroke that bend is ripped off, and I'm left with a horrible edge that shaves terribly At least that's what I think I'm doing.

To correct this, I will place the blade on the near side of the hone (hone is perpendicular to me) with the edge facing away from me. I then, rather than using one hand to steady the razor, place both of my thumbs behind the razor on each side of the hone. My right index finger and thumb "pinch" the razor, so to speak, and my left thumb is behind the spine, while my left index finger is on the very back edge of the spine, *barely* applying pressure. As I stroke the razor away from me, I concentrate on my left hand. The index finger keeps the razor's spine on the hone, and then I don't accidentally hit the edge of the hone and ruin my razor. I am **absolutely** not applying pressure to the razor grind or edge, just using a slight bit of pressure on the back edge of the spine to hold the razor in contact with the hone. If I push on the razor grind while honing, I'll change the bevel completely and be back to square one.

It really is easier that I've made it sound. The trick is to do whatever you have to do to make sure that the spine of the razor is in contact with the hone during each stroke. I've put serious nicks in my razor from accidental contact from my fingernail, think of what a hone could do.

If you have 2 that won't shave well, put a marker on the edge on one and color it in good. Then try my method and see if the marker is taken off completely and evenly. Razors are so fragile, don't try to test the edge with your thumb or any other knife tricks. You'll rip it out and have to start all over. If you can shave armhair holding your razor 1/8 to 1/4 inch above your skin, you're getting where you need to be. If it does this "treetop trimming" as well as your third razor, then you're there.

Don't be too scared to try. I have an old razor that I got in a flea market in 1981 that had been completely "ruined". I used this technique on a Spyderco fine ceramic stone, then a Spyderco Ultrafine, then stropped it. It now shaves great, took about 10 minutes. Maybe 20 swipes per side on the fine, then 10 per side on the ultra fine. This razor was in **really** bad shape.

Once you get the hang of it, you'll do great! If any of this doesn't make sense, let me know. Good luck!
 
Thankyou all for your encouragement and info ,especialy SODAK your method works a treat ,my one good razor was getting rather dull even with stropping,so out came the hone and with jaw set and teeth clenched I gave it a go,it shaves realy well now . Using your method I noticed that I was lifting the end of the blade furthest from me and only honeing the first quarter .Now I better get busy and repair the two I buggered
Thanks once again for your time it was greatly appreciated.
I even went to the local barbers , with our new laws he has to use a straight razor with dissposable blades and he has to use a new blade with every shave ,also his insurance costs go up a great deal due to the percieved danger, so you just cant get a shave in this town any more
Have a good day all
Kind regards Peter:)
 
I'm glad that it's working for you. It's a lot of fun when it all comes together. With the sharpie method, I was amazed how much metal was removed with each stroke on the hone. I was used to knives, razors hone 10x faster... So be careful, you'll probably fix the other two faster than you think is possible. Enjoy!
 
I've recieved my hone and I just honed it as described many times already.
My razor is positively sharper than new ... razor sharp!

Simply laying the blade flat and gently passing it like trying to take a slice of the hone does it. The gentler the better, but it also has to be consistent.

Every few passes I wiped the hone with a damp lint free rag. After 40 licks of stroping this blade is the sharpest thing I ever seen in my life.
 
The best advice I can give you is to go to
www.straightrazorplace.com. It is devoted exclusively to straight razor's. There are numerous gifs, avi's and such demonstrating how to hone. There is also a forum on just that topic.
Also check out
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7466711741780429878&q=straight+razor

and

Norbert Schick pics and videos(Dovo factory visit)
http://www.nassrasur.com/norbert/norbert.html

and

http://www.en.nassrasur.com/razorcentral/index.html


Also, forget the Edgemaster system for straight razors, it is far to coarse. The lowest grit to use on a straight razor is 4000 grit.
We use that to remove nicks and create new bevels. Then we move to finer grits like 8000 and above. We usually finish with and abrasive pasted paddle strop. The abrasive is approx 0.5 microns in size and either chrome oxide (green) or synthetic diamond. Then we clean the razor and strop it on a plain leather strop for 30-60 laps, then shave.
 
Just a quick note to say thanks for the info
I have been advised to get a lithide hone and am expecting it in the mail very shortly also a new strop I hope I havent waisted my doe with the hone
the only strop I have at the moment is a black beauty junior with the rough and smooth sides ,before I new better I rubbed green paste into both sides.
You say you do 30-60laps then shave I presume that is on the plain leather strop ,how many lapes on the one with green paste would you do.
The strop is one with one side leather and one side canvace
I have purchased some ols rolls strop dressing for the leather,should I use anything on the canvace
Thanks once again for the info ,I realy do appreciate your help and every one else who has freely given there time and assistance.
Shaving used to be a chore I only used disposable razors ,I didn`t even bother with shaving cream ,just whiped it off and be done with it and two or three disposables per shave.
Now things have changed,I kind of enjoy shaving now,after shaving for 30 years ,what a turn around, Thanks again one and all
Kind regards Peter
 
The 30-60 laps is on the plain leather strop. If you use strop conditioner on it then use it sparingly, 3 pea sized drops and rub it in with the palm of you hand. The linen is only "soaped" once in a while. A bar of dry soap (Ivory) is rubbed over the linen and then rubbed in with the palm of your hand. Then the soap is reapplied to the linen and rubbed in with a glass bottle.

To Remove most of the abrasive from a strop use GOOP automotive hand cleaner, the non abrasive stuff. This is both a cleaner and a conditioner, it has lanolin in it. Just apply, work it around and wipe off with a paper towel. Repeat that several times and most of the abrasive will be gone. The other option is to get a wide smooth belt and use that as a strop.
The lithide hone is a "fine (8000 grit)" hone if I remember correctly.
What you really need is a medium (4000 grit) hone to repair and establish your bevels. I do not remember if the lithide is a combination ( dual grit) hone or not. But I can assure you that the fine grit hone alone will not restore a bevel.
Check with "Tilly" at redtrader99@fastmail.fm for a medium hone.
She has many classic barber hones that have never been used.
She has a website www.redtrader99.com and also sells on Ebay as redtrader99. Feel free to PM or email me at anytime. Keep us posted on your progress.:)

PS I use the linen for 30 laps then 30-60 laps on the plain leather strop then shave.
The general rule for abrasive pasted strops is also 30-60 laps. It really depends on the hardness of the steel in the razor.
 
Quick question ,there is an antique Raven razor hone for sale on ebay, hardly used ,would this be worth bidding on
Kind regards Peter
 
bg42ss said:
Quick question ,there is an antique Raven razor hone for sale on ebay, hardly used ,would this be worth bidding on
Kind regards Peter




As a medium grit hone...no.
 
I have taken your advice and talked to tilly ,I am purchasing a cushion hone
,she said that they will set a good edge,so if you don`t mind my next question is how do you tell when the edge is set then ready for the medium then lithide hone.
Thanks once again thanks for your help it is much appreciated
Kind regards Peter
 
The purpose of using a coarse hone is to remove nicks and old oxidised steel from the vintage razors and then to create a bevel on either a new razor or one of the vintage razors.

You have two tools that you can use to see if a smooth, nick free bevel has been formed. 1. A handheld microscope such as the Radioshack 60x_100X or 2. Your thumbnail.


First wet your thumbnail and then lightly run the razor across the cuticle area. Note anything that suggests a chip. Also note if the degree of cutting is uniform or if it is jerky. Also note if there is any cutting or if its simply smooth(dull).

What you are looking for :
The razor should dig in slightly and evenly along the entire length of the blade.
This test can be used on both the coarse stone and the medium stone but not the fine hone.

This is perhaps the most difficult part of honing,. establishing the bevel. Once the bevel is established the rest is comparitively easy.

I use both a microscope (30X) and the thumbnail test. The one other thing to watch out for is a wire edge. A wire edge is when you have over honed the razor and the edge is so thin that it is like aluminum foil. On the thumbnail test it will feel ragged and under the microscope it will look like a brown/gold line on the very edge in some spots. The easiest way to remove a wire edge is to run the razor thru a wooden match stick or a piece of balsa wood. The other method that sometimes works is to use a reverse honing motion for 5-10 laps then follow that up with 5-10 normal honing motions.

Under the microscope the bevel should a uniform color for the entire width and length of the blade. If there are two colors, with the darker one near the edge, then that indicates two bevels, the old and the new. Continue honing until the color is uniform and the edge is of a uniform level of roughness/finish with no nicks.

Then you can move on to the medium hone. How much to hone on the medium hone is difficult to determine. Thats why a lot of us use something called a "Honing Pyramid".

A Pyramid is annotated like this:
15/5
10/5
5/5
5/5
5/5
3/5
3/5
3/5
1/5
1/5
1/5

What this means is first 15 laps on the medium hone followed by 5 laps on the fine hone. Then perform 10 laps on the medium hone followed by 5 laps on the fine hone. The perform 5 laps on the medium hone and followed by 5 laps on the fine hone. Etc.
The number of times that you will have to repeat this Pyramid or a variation of it will depend on the hardness of your razor.
The number of laps on each hone is just a general suggestion.
Razors are generally classified as having a soft, medium or hard temper. You will have to determine that for yourself.

While you are going thru this pyramid you need to test the edge of your razor frequently. Use the thumb test (not the thumbnail test) or the Hanging Hair Test. When it passes these tests then go ahead and give the razor a shave test. You will more than likely find that you will have to go back to the hones numerous times before you get a decent shave. But... each time you will notice that the shave is better.

Unfortunately there is no objective test available for a straight razor. I personally rely on the Hanging Hair Test to give me an indication of the shave readiiness of a razor. However, I usually have to go back to the hones at least once.

Go over to www.straightrazorplace.com and read the help files. There is lots of info on honing over their.

Hope this helps,:)
 
thanks once again for you time and input,I have a lot to learn, but you know I actually enjoy shaving now
I have a Rockwell razor that is the only one working at present and have also ordered a Zeepk first quality razor
I also have one old yankee in very good condition and two other cheepies all need a new edge
Any way thanks once again
Kind regards Peter
 
I hate to say this but the Rockwell and the Zeepk are two of the poorest quality straight razors on the market!
The grain size on those is very large which results in a coarse felling shave and usually they are ground poorly which results i a porr beel formation. The steel used is of poor quality and the heat treating they use leaves the steel to soft. This results in an edge that is coarse, chips easily and does not retain the edge.
Throw those two razors away or use them for honing practice. Most of us do not even use them for honing practice.

The Yankee is probably has good steel. The rule of thumb used is that if, on the shank of the razor (not the blade) it is STAMPED! Germany, Sheffield, Eskiltuna, France, Spain or a USA city or company then the steel is good. This applies to both new and old razors.The poor quality razors do not usually stamp the shank, they etch either the face of the blade or the shank. The lowest price for a new straight razor is in the neighborhood of $60-$70. Anything for less is probably junk.

If you are looking at a razor on Ebay or anywhere else on the Internet feel free to email me and I will give you a frank opinion.

Hope this helps,
 
Thanks for your honesty ,just quietly I thought as much,the bigest problem I have is the exchange rate,with the cost of postage as well you can just about double the price,I will have to try some old antique shops around the area and try to pick up a decent razor at a reasonable price
Thanks once again
Kind regards Peter
 
henckels,what do you think about these razors ,there is one for auction on ebay location U S A in 19 hours,it is near new condition
Kind regards Peter
 
I have not heard one bad word about a Henckels. I have several and they all shave just fine.

What is the ebay ID?
 
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