Tulwar blades?

For the hilts remember they were meant to be snug, it's forcing you to keep your wrist from cocking too much and cutting with your arm/body, and not from wrist motion... resulting is a more powerful slicing action. Of course some were just very small, and there were ones made for kids too.

There's actually a few smiths in the Punjab area making the real deal... this guy is one of them: http://nihangsingh.com/
Does anybody know how to contact that person? I tried emails and even WhatsApp. No replies at all. Maybe he only makes blades for fellow Sikhs?
Might just send some Indian friends to his address.
But to be honest I'd prefer an Indian maker which discloses what steel they use and then hope that the heat treatment is adequate.

The_Monkeyboy,
Do you mind sharing the address of the Punjabi blade smiths which are reliable in your opinion? Thank you.
 
Nope. They never even got back to me. Not many of the people who advertise online will respond to inquiries that aren't in Punjabi. Hence the reason it has taken me so long to move forward on this project. Truthfully, I have had the most luck cruising Facebook. The key words to look for are Shastars, Gatka, and Akal / Akaal. Those seem to get you to pages that sell swords, other weapons, and Gatka equipment. I will try to track down the ones that I have been successful with and post links later. My biggest problem is the size of my hands. If I could buy them off the rack, many of the spring steel bladed swords seem to sell in the $115-175 range.
 
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This is typical of what you will find from many of these smaller shops. They tend to have a mix of newly-made swords, and swords with a new blade or new hilt attached to a vintage hilt or blade. Because of the ease with which you can swap out blades or hilts, you will often see them selling rebuilt weapons. Many of the older hilts still seem to have a great deal of demand. It can't be simple economics, as the hilts don't actually cost all that much in the plain form. But people seem to be just as interested in buying them as they do the new ones. This picture is from the same guy who made the ornate hilt and hardware I posted above. Notice several of them have old blades. The size and shape of the blade seems to be highly variable. As does the choice to have the knuckle bow or not. You will also see a few of the Basket Hilt style grips. These are an older style, that is more often seen on the heavy, straight-bladed swords.
 
Nope. They never even got back to me. Not many of the people who advertise online will respond to inquiries that aren't in Punjabi. Hence the reason it has taken me so long to move forward on this project. Truthfully, I have had the most luck cruising Facebook. The key words to look for are Shastars, Gatka, and Akal / Akaal. Those seem to get you to pages that sell swords, other weapons, and Gatka equipment. I will try to track down the ones that I have been successful with and post links later. My biggest problem is the size of my hands. If I could buy them off the rack, many of the spring steel bladed swords seem to sell in the $115-175 range.
Yes there could be a language barrier. Its just that they and their friends/fans/followers are posting in WhatsApp and Flickr in English. Most people in India know English and most classes in public schools are taught in English. I had also sent a message translated into Punjabi and Hindu, no response.
I guess it's probably due to not wanting to ship internationally and some think that a knife has to be dull to be shipped and probably a few more other issues.

I also got the handle problem. The Tiger knifes Katar (push daggers) are the worst since you can't simply switch to use only 3 fingers like on a normal knife which is too short. They are fine for my kids though. It's also not that Indians have super tiny hands and kitchen knives made in India also have normal handles. Why do they make traditional looking ones so small? Maybe to save on material, and work for the more decorated ones?

Anyways, given these problems and not knowing what steel they use, one maker from Delhi who sells at ebay messaged me "hardened mild steel". I'll just make my own Indian knives from stock and let them heat treat by someone. They'll be less pretty but more functional and even fit. It's not that I'm in a hurry. Still would be cool to have a few samples to start with. :)
 
I have found that the best way to explain what size you need is to send a picture of your hand and a ruler laid across the palm to show the size. I would also probably try to stick with the makers in Punjab, simply because they still make swords for actual use. Not just tourist stuff. The blades, when they aren't made of the showy damascus steel, tend to be EN43 and EN45 spring steel. Not exactly the newest and strongest material, but more than enough for a decent sword blade. I would love to try to track down a Katar, but I live in California. And they are considered to be push daggers here, and therefore illegal.
 
I have found that the best way to explain what size you need is to send a picture of your hand and a ruler laid across the palm to show the size. I would also probably try to stick with the makers in Punjab, simply because they still make swords for actual use. Not just tourist stuff. The blades, when they aren't made of the showy damascus steel, tend to be EN43 and EN45 spring steel. Not exactly the newest and strongest material, but more than enough for a decent sword blade. I would love to try to track down a Katar, but I live in California. And they are considered to be push daggers here, and therefore illegal.

I believe as knives they can be possessed and open carried but not concealed carried. Just like almost any other knife dirk and dagger in California.
Pushdagger aren't specifically addressed in the legal texts. ( Autos Balisongs and Shuriken are)
Of course a Leo or Prosecutor might get inventive and try to make it look like a knuck which would be illegal even if just possessed.

Makes sense that Punjab seems good because some there make blades for the Sikhs. It's great that you know somebody because even beeing there I might just get a touristy one which of course they'll say is real. I'd be fine with spring steel since they aren't really edc blades anyways.
 
Katars and push daggers run afoul of the brass knuckle prohibition. Because they meet that definition, you can't even possess them in the state.
 
Katars and push daggers run afoul of the brass knuckle prohibition. Because they meet that definition, you can't even possess them in the state.
I like to err on the side of caution as well.
Reading the actual law regarding knuckle dusters even normal knives and other harmless objects could fall under their vague description. What kind of object in or on ones' hand doesn't protect the hand or increases the effectiveness of a strike? Even a finger ring would to some extent. In an actual case simple metal cylinders were found not to be knucks. Thus there are things which have to be met besides whats written there so vaguely. I never heard of a knife like a carambit (with a ring) or push dagger being classified as a knuckle duster. An indicator though a weak one of course is that I can buy push daggers from within CA from any online knife seller which I checked. Some are even sold from within CA ( Coldsteel). A trench knife however where each finger slides into a separate hole and has raised bumps to increase its force in a strike should surely qualify as a knuckle duster.

Even a simple legal (i hope) climbing carabiner will punch better than a Katar which can't punch and only cuts/stabs.

Since its vague and there isn't any case regarding a Katar knife I wouldn't risk it even if it's probably legal to posses and open carry. Might be an interesting brain teaser for the practac sub forum.


Edit: these guys talked it all through already. Bottom line, even if legal it's too risky.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=189036&page=2
 
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Well, it seems to be time for my annual update on this project. Due to India's export regulations, getting a sharpened blade out of there through the mail/FedEx is... problematic. However, getting a finished blade that is ready to be sharpened is somewhat easier. Unfortunately, India is have fun with a "demonetization" experiment right now, where their government told everybody that all of the paper money in the most common denominations would become worthless in a matter of weeks, and it needed to be turned in to local banks in order to be exchanged for the new versions. And they didn't have enough of the new notes to meet the needs. So while I have a guy over there who has my blade finished and ready to go, he is limited to pulling out about $20 US from the bank each day, and he has to use that to cover all of his expenses, including food and rent. So it is taking him a while to get enough cash out of the bank to ship me the blade. I know it sounds like a crock of shit, but it is actually a real situation. Anyway, the picture below is one of the ones of the blade being made. The blade style is one of the traditional Punjabi types, and it is supposed to be about 30" long. It should be getting here by the end of the month Assuming it lives up to what he says it will, I will likely be ordering a second, shorter blade, somewhat closer to the ones found on European cutlasses. These were also popular in several places in India, and I will be able to compare it directly to the various cutlasses I have access to.

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And outside of that we already know that original Indian crucible steel was better then euro sword steel of the time.
...know any such thing. By the Napoleonic era, European crucible steel as well as very high quality double-shear steel was used in sword production, and although it tended to be lower in carbon than wootz, that's not necessarily a bad thing. British swords were subjected to very rigorous testing, and there are many indications that natives preferred surplus LC pattern swords for tulwar blades when they could obtain them.
 
Many of the blades used in Indian Tulwars, and other swords, for that matter, were European. Towards the end of the 18th century, and well into the 19th, German and Italian blades were highly sought after. Some were purpose made for Indian trade, with patterns based on traditional models. Others were simply stuck on Indian style hilts as is. Other blades, especially the 1796 LC sabre, were bought up as surplus, and then reshaped to better suit the Indian styles of swordsmanship. This often involved regrinding the edge, thinning the blade to make it more suited to slashing and draw cuts, and sometimes even shortening it. The Wootz steel that India was famed for seems to have been capable of holding a very sharp edge. However, everything I have seen gives me the impression that it was a bit more brittle than more modern (for that period) European steels. That doesn't matter much when your targets tend to be wearing little in the way of metal armor, and parrying with the blade is not a common tactic. But when you are going up against people who are trained to parry with their blade, instead of either using a shield or footwork to avoid the blow, that brittleness can become an issue. It doesn't help you much if your razor-sharp sword, that is fully capable of decapitating an opponent with the flick or your wrist, is now just a stump of a sword sticking out of the hilt because the other guy blocked your attack with his crude, but still serviceable sabre.

Also don't forget that those same swordsmiths in Germany were cranking out all kinds of blades for people all over the world. North Africa, Sudan, the Middle East... It looks like they would make anything for anybody if there was money in it. Judging from the significant number of surviving blades around the world, there was both a demand for the blades at the time, and a very good supply of them being made.
 
So, months later, I am still waiting on the finished sword from Bozo the blade smith. He is supposedly trying to get it to me as soon as possible because I told him I would be filing a police report with the police station about 6 blocks from where he lives. Oh and letting everybody on his Facebook friends list, including his fiance and the leaders of his particular religious organization, know what kind of games he has been playing. He suddenly seems VERY motivated.

Meanwhile, I have been working with the company that did the ornate hilt and scabbard furniture for me. They are a small shop with about 15 guys. The manager is an interesting guy who is very interested in Indian weapons. That is a good thing, considering what he does. They are in the process of making a Tega for me. I am still a bit unclear about the differences between a tega and a tulwar, as the two terms seem to be a bit variable when you translate them into English. However, the sword they are currently making seems to have a curved blade, with the earlier style basket hilt. Here is the mid-production picture. It still needs to have the handle wrapped in leather. And there may be some sort of padding that goes inside the basket hilt, much like the Scottish basket hilts from the 18th and 19th centuries. The expect to ship it to me in the next week or so. And based on my last transaction with them, it should get here in about 2 weeks.

Tega1_zps04hn5buc.jpg
 
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Honestly alot of Cold Steel's swords feel way too unweildy and heavy. I think it is because their stuff lacks a distal taper. When I swing their swords it rarely feels like a proper reproduction does.
 
Honestly alot of Cold Steel's swords feel way too unweildy and heavy. I think it is because their stuff lacks a distal taper. When I swing their swords it rarely feels like a proper reproduction does.
That is pretty much why I have not bothered with their Tulwars. As I said, I have their 1796 LC sabre. And it handles more like a cleaver or an axe than a sword. I have one 19th century tulwar that, according to the people I have talked to in India, seems to be a basic one from one of the governmental arsenals over there. It is still razor sharp, with a light, very handy blade. Absolutely nothing like any of the swords I have seen from Windlass. If it were not for the fact that it IS actually a real 19th century tulwar, I would pull the blade out of the current hilt, and put it in one of the ones that I have in my size. Alas, my wife has forbidden that. First, because she doesn't want me wrecking a piece of history. And second, because the hilt fits her hand just fine, thank you very much. (sigh) Yet another toy lost to the wife. But that does bring up a very important feature with many Indian swords. The hilt and blade are normally only attached to each other with Lacc or other natural resins. You can swap them out with a heat gun in about 10 minutes.
 
Okay, it looks like the photobucket option wasn't working, so here is the picture. Unlike most Indian swords, this style also uses a rivet through the long flanges that cover the ricasso to secure the blade to the hilt. In addition to the resin around the tang.


Tega1.jpg
 
There are probably all types of handling profiles when it comes to talwars as many of them used european blades of various manufacture.

But the Cold Steel swords definitely feel more like a baseball bat. I liked the way many Hanwei items handle.
 
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