Ugh!!..Nail nick problems again

Hi, the HSS bits came with the flycutter holder/tool when I bought it. I've never ground tool bits before so it's probably my poor ability on that!
The tip just seems to round off.

That just sounds like junk HSS, and if it came with a cheap flycutter, that's probably a given.

Don't be afraid to setup an adjustable tool rest at the primary angles on your belt grinder or a disc, to get the main profile established, then go back and put the finishing touches on by hand. No reason to freehand it all with a bench grinder or anything.
 
That just sounds like junk HSS, and if it came with a cheap flycutter, that's probably a given.

Don't be afraid to setup an adjustable tool rest at the primary angles on your belt grinder or a disc, to get the main profile established, then go back and put the finishing touches on by hand. No reason to freehand it all with a bench grinder or anything.

I'll probably give it another try later in the week, after looking up some info on the angles etc. I'm just testing some designs so have been h/t some blades with milled slots and springs.
 
I'll probably give it another try later in the week, after looking up some info on the angles etc. I'm just testing some designs so have been h/t some blades with milled slots and springs.

Let me know if you need some guidance on finding a good piece of HSS, it's almost impossible (and super overpriced) to buy this new "retail", and you almost have to buy it surplus, but can usually be found easily on ebay if you know what to look for, you'll just need to tell me what size toolbit your cutter takes. Otherwise, I probably have one I can send you, but I'm notoriously slow at going to the post office.
 
PM or email me if you need some HSS. I have access to more than a little, hard and annealed, M2, M4, M7, M42, T15, etc.... Almost all round bar though, 1/8'' to 8'' diameter.

However, I'm super curious why you would even bother with a fly cutter? Wouldn't a dovetail, or an inverted dovetail, be a better way to go? Is there some special angle required?
 
Thanks it's much appreciated, I've milled a slot in my prototype so at least I can continue with the build. I'll be having a look in a few days.
Ian.
 
Let me know if you need some guidance on finding a good piece of HSS, it's almost impossible (and super overpriced) to buy this new "retail", and you almost have to buy it surplus, but can usually be found easily on ebay if you know what to look for, you'll just need to tell me what size toolbit your cutter takes. Otherwise, I probably have one I can send you, but I'm notoriously slow at going to the post office.

Thanks it's much appreciated, I've milled a slot in my prototype so at least I can continue with the build. I'll be having a look in a few days.
Ian.
 
PM or email me if you need some HSS. I have access to more than a little, hard and annealed, M2, M4, M7, M42, T15, etc.... Almost all round bar though, 1/8'' to 8'' diameter.

However, I'm super curious why you would even bother with a fly cutter? Wouldn't a dovetail, or an inverted dovetail, be a better way to go? Is there some special angle required?
Hi, when looking for methods a fly cutter seemed a popular answer. Have been having problems getting it to work though. Thanks for the offer of the HSS, my flycutter takes 5/16 square stock. I have bought a dovetail cutter to try and will post up the results as soon as I get around to trying it.
Ian
 
PM or email me if you need some HSS. I have access to more than a little, hard and annealed, M2, M4, M7, M42, T15, etc.... Almost all round bar though, 1/8'' to 8'' diameter.

However, I'm super curious why you would even bother with a fly cutter? Wouldn't a dovetail, or an inverted dovetail, be a better way to go? Is there some special angle required?

Versatility, cost, resharpenability.

You can modify the toolbit radius and angles to create a specific nailnick style you prefer, with a more or less radiused bottom, etc, you can resharpen to keep crisp corners at the ends of the nick, and they're cheap enough to experiment with.

Good quality HSS Dovetail cutters are hard to find these days, most are trash import, most Domestic ones are carbide, and have delicate corners with the sharp (zero edge relief) corners you need to make the nail nicks look correct, and you need large diameter ones to get the right geometry, these are exceedingly expensive, if you could even find one big enough.

I use a angle dressed surface grinder stone, but I personally hate the look of any nail nick that's not ground with a 5"+ diameter stone. You can equate this more easily with a fly cutter.
 
Versatility, cost, resharpenability.

You can modify the toolbit radius and angles to create a specific nailnick style you prefer, with a more or less radiused bottom, etc, you can resharpen to keep crisp corners at the ends of the nick, and they're cheap enough to experiment with.

Good quality HSS Dovetail cutters are hard to find these days, most are trash import, most Domestic ones are carbide, and have delicate corners with the sharp (zero edge relief) corners you need to make the nail nicks look correct, and you need large diameter ones to get the right geometry, these are exceedingly expensive, if you could even find one big enough.

I use a angle dressed surface grinder stone, but I personally hate the look of any nail nick that's not ground with a 5"+ diameter stone. You can equate this more easily with a fly cutter.

Thank you Javand - that really makes a lot of sense!

I'm in the process of trying to soak up as much info as possible (and accumulate tools & material), so I can make my own knives. Conversations and threads like this have a value to newbies like me that can't even be described!

With regards to a cutter to create a nail nick, what price would you (or anyone) consider reasonable, and do you consider "exceedingly expensive"? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this perspective.
 
Thank you Javand - that really makes a lot of sense!

I'm in the process of trying to soak up as much info as possible (and accumulate tools & material), so I can make my own knives. Conversations and threads like this have a value to newbies like me that can't even be described!

With regards to a cutter to create a nail nick, what price would you (or anyone) consider reasonable, and do you consider "exceedingly expensive"? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this perspective.


If I were trying to do it with a dovetail cutter, to get the appearance I'd expect, it would need to be a 3-4" diameter at the cutter tips. If you had to price that from US HSS let alone solid carbide, I'd expect that to be many hundreds, if not a thousand dollars. I've never seen any that large in recent years.

The other option would be a large insert cutter, but that also, of any quality, would likely be that much or more.

At that point, what's the advantage, if ever there was? The fly cutter, can yield excellent results, and single point cutting tools usually offer excellent finish quality.

This is not a question of metal removal efficiency here, fly cutters are readily and cheaply available, and so are toolbit if you know where to find them. You should be able to buy a cheap fly cutter and a good toolbit for less than $100, and you can make a flycutter with only low to moderate experience on a mill.


One could easily argue that a large angle or double angle cutter on an arbor, would make *much* more sense here. There's plenty of great, larger diameter ones sitting around not being used much anymore since most of the horizontal knee mills are also collecting dust. In fact, I've got a pile of them. Either way though, any multi-point cutter, is going to be difficult for most knifemakers to sharpen when the time comes, they'll have to send it out, or replace it. Single point tools, are very easy on the other hand, and we've all mostly got the tool (belt grinder) to do it easily.


Just to give you some price perspective, I run a small solid carbide US produced (harvey tool) 1/2 diameter dovetail cutter, for cutting integral dovetail liners/bolsters for my slipjoints, retail price on this is around ~$180.

For cutting nail nicks, in order to get a nice wide swooped nick you need a shallow angle, and a large diameter, otherwise you'll cut too deep before the nick is wide, you can't feed the cut longer either, as that destroys the shape. IMO, bare minimum is 3-4", I personally prefer 6-8" and around a ~30(60) degree angle, 45 is way too sharp, and you end up with either a very thin deep nail nick, or one too small. That's a matter of preference though. When I first started trying to figure out the best way to do it with a stone, I was recommended 3-4" diameter and 45 deg, this looked like crap to my eye, and it takes a very particular type of stone to be able to hold that angle with a sharp edge. I spent months, and many hundreds of dollars on stones until I got something that works the way I expect it to.

Here's an example of what I like mine to look like:
nick.jpg
 
Regardless of stock removal or forged, nicks are traditionally forged into blades. Simply make a nick-shaped punch, harden it, and stamp the unhardened blade. Finish as necessary.
Machining the nick is fine, but unnecessary.

So I presume you would need to heat the blade to do this? Trying to work out how to achieve this as I grind blades after heat treating.
Ian
 
You will have to stamp before heat treating.
You can grind them in after H/T.
 
I'm still stuck on the huge variety of wheels and price points.... Would something like this work with the edge dressed to the correct angle?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-new-NORT...h=item2cbc6de3c9:g:7kYAAOSwy4hUSmii:rk:4:pf:0

And sorry for the newb question, but what tool do you use to dress a stone like this?
Jason, that one will not work well. It is to soft and does not hold form well. Here is the one I use - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-6-x...:MtkAAOSwEzJbGsNK:rk:11:pf:0&autorefresh=true

and a sine dresser like this to dress with a diamond point - https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Angle-...h=item286d595cc8:g:tK0AAOSwMBdb5vYM:rk:1:pf:0
 
I tried my hand at it and this is what I came up with. This one is just straight, but On the metal cutting disc if you taper the edge you will get the moon shape nail knick. This is done with a 1/16" thick disc.

4cCe90g.jpg


U5QuPco.jpg


kZ0mm5v.jpg
 
Last edited:
J Jason Fry Alan Davis Knives Alan Davis Knives
I've been using a 3" cup wheel on the mill, eventually the corner edge becomes radiused and you need to dress it.
here's my first test try on some scrap with a 4" cup wheel, and on the surface grinder, it works fast and easy
Alan Davis Knives Alan Davis Knives thx for the tip on the sine dresser. Amazing how they can make something like that so cheap. If Hermann Schmidt made one it would be $1,000 but within .0001 all around :)

JncExcL.png


GQOvWfW.jpg
 
Last edited:
Back
Top