Understanding the ABS Cutting Competition

Back again,

Jerry, You mentioned that the American Bladesmith Society has moved into a bigger environment. Should the name be changed to the...

"World Bladesmith Society"
Just a thought.

Shane
 
OK here it is!

I will sponsor a cutting contest at my shop in Sheridan Wyoming this spring! We are in the northeast corner of the state, near the junction of I-25 and I-90.

IF the ABS will tell me what I need to make it happen. I will build or buy whatever stuff is needed out of my own pocket. Hell, I will even do my best to run a fair contest...or if somebody wants to pony up here from down south to run the show, I will put them up in my spare room. (If you do not mind humble dwellings.)

I'll even roast some dogs on the grill, make a day of it!

I have a little shop, with the bare basics, but all are welcome as long as the police don't get any calls about a bunch of knife weilding whackos....

Once I get the feedback form the ABS cutting crew I will set a date.

Mr. Fisk, Mr. Primos, Mr. Williams let me know.

Cards on the table. No bullshit. There it is.

All this needs is the ABS sanction and rules. Well, how 'bout it?

Shane
 
I would like to say that the regional aspects of the cutting competitions are being dealt with the best they can for now. I am a nobody from the sticks in Michigan and I made it to the finals in Atlanta last year. I would also like to say that I know they are promoting diversity, because I have got not end of ribbing for not competing at all this year. I was sweating bullets during the competition in MI in August, because if those southern boys had won in Michigan while I sat in the audience I would have never heard the end of it --thank you Mike Bauer! ( my cheering for him was very noticeable). I once again got a good ribbing when I did not go to the Moran hammer in to compete. Do you know what it is like to have the former chairman of the ABS making chicken noises at you over the telephone?!?

In fact if you were at the Scagel hammerin competition you would have noticed Mike and Steve wearing blue Union hats and John and Jim wearing grey Conferderate hats. There is such a regional diversity that we have fun with it. That was obvious when I competed in Alabama with a knife called "General Sherman", granted you could hear crickets when they anounced the name, but it is still fun.

Calling it the "World Championships" is no sillier than having a "Mister Universe" contest. I think we needed a couple more beeps from the SETI program before we made that asumption;)

I think the cutting competitions are a very good thing for the whole business. It is pulling things back in line from the crowbar mentality brought about by misinterpretation of the ABS tests. Everybody taking the J.S. and M.S. too literally had kinda put cutting and edge retention in the back seat. The cutting competitions got us all making good knives that have to cut again.
 
You know what, I am starting to get the impression that what I was doing was nit-picking. It looks like things are in good hands as far as these cutting competitions are concerned. Hopefully we will hear from Jerry when he has the time. I hear he has been on the road for the last three weeks.

The ouline as put forward by SDouglas and as Terry explained, the one used by the ABS, is one that will work just fine. Hopefully there will be some competitions in the Northwest so that they will close enough for me to get to. There are enough ABS Mastersmiths in Montana that a cutting competition should be able to be put on at the Montana show at some point.
 
Have patience. Rome was not built in a day. The ABS board meets once a year. The promotion of the forged blade is what the ABS does. They will not include stock removal knives as that is not what our mission is about.
This requires more thoughts than, "Lets meet at someones shop and swing 10" pieces of sharp steel. This requires insurance, lawyers etc. when you think of things that can go wrong at one of these events. There is always a doctor or nurse present at one of these events.

As to changing around the events themselves. Yes, Mike Williams and I as well as others that throws in ideals, do change them around. The whole thing is to test and futher your knowledge of the cutting edge. When a knife is sold to a client he cannot quarrentee that he will only cut apples with it since you made it to only cut apples. Crap happens. Knife eventually goes to client number 2 years from now. #2 does not know he can only cut apples. The maker must be able to make an overall blade that will hold up. Case in point in that when we first started this thing Mike and I held the same events for several times in a row. Some of the makers got this figured out and when we just happened to change it, not thinking on our part, several of the guys knives failed really bad cause they had special ground it and shaped it just for those events. Couple of them got preturbed cause we changed it. Not good. Events must be changed to keep them fair to the clients.
Personally,I really dont care about the makers fairness or to make it even playing field for him. The whole thing is to insure that collectors and users get an education about what a forged blade is all about and for him to be able to judge for himself what is a good blade and to see some of the things it will and can do but a good smith. If you only cut the same thing each time he will just know that it cuts xyz.

I dont know of anyone that has cut in one of these events that has not gone back with different ideals of design in his head of things to do to make his/her knife cut better. That is what is all about. Not Hey look at me.

This has to be delt with and by the board not by an indivdual. The board has several things on its plate right now concerning this and other events and I cannot say with any sureness of what and how it will move and what direction. That is up to the board as a whole. So far the contest have been held at ABS hammer-ins and sanctioned shows. IT would be my guess that is the way it will continue. It will not be held at someone shop. Can you spell liability?
Patience yall.
 
Jerry, does this mean that I can keep on prying open paint cans with that fancy damascus bowie of yours? :D
 
Fellas,
My offer was a bonified, sincere attempt to offer some nuetral ground.
It was not meant to stir feces or cause hard feelings. Nor was I trying to challenge the current way of doing things.

My wife is a registered nurse. She would be on hand for emergencies. I am cerified in First Aid and CPR and have been cerified as a First Responder. Hospital is less then 10 minutes away, five if you are in a hurry.I also have buddies on the ambulance crew who could be on stand-by.

As to insurance, would a waiver make it possible?

Anthony,
My comment about changing the name of the ABS was not sarcastic. It was a reflection on the diverse make up of the ABS. Since there is a growing membership from around the world wouldn't it be great to reflect that? Would you agree that vision plays a big role in growth?

Would I really open my home to strangers if I didn't believe in bringing people together? It would be too easy to sit on the computer and make snide remarks from the sidelines.

I am a newbie in this world trying to pitch in and do the work. If I lived closer I would try to help out at the ABS school. I don't. SO I am doing what I can by making this offer. Please understand, by offering to bank roll this thing I would spend a full year's budget for my shop. AND it would kill my chances of going to Atlanta to present my test blades for a JS stamp. I am that serious. I hope it wasn't seen as a grand stand for attention. While I do get worked up, I don't offer stuff like this lightly. Anybody who knows me understands I have an open door policy to anybody coming this way to stop by.(Call first so the wife can clean up the shop first!) Yes, that was humor.

Are there any other barriers to holding a sanctioned cutting event? What does somebody need for a Hammer-In? Jim Batson talked with me about holding one when I was at the blade school. We have lots of historic sites...Parks and such...I probably know the local folks to make this possible.

Beautiful location, good access, inexpensive motels especially in the off season. Close to Yellowstone. End of plug.

Shane
 
The only place other than hammer-ins and the Blade show finals where a contest is held is at the SOS show. We were barely getting it done there due to the hotels reluctance because of the liability. The show is moving next year so it may be very well that there will not be one held there. That would only leave hammer ins.
You cannot get waivers on insurance and still have this.
Shane, you are beating a dead sheep at this time. Be patient. I understand wanting to have one in the North West. If one is held there one day it will have to be where it will do the most good overall. It will not be held at a show is my guess, then again it is up to the ABS board not me. Shows are dang reluctant due to the liability. Putting on hammer in is no small task. Since being moved to the VP slot and having to do more hammer-ins and cutting contest my income and production is down almost 40% each year for the past 5 years because of the time involved setting and doing. Batson as chairman only managed to make 10 knives a year total and he is a full time maker. Mikes income is down as well as a few other people that pitch in. We are trying to get this set up so it spreads out more at this time. Patience.

It was called the world cutting competetion due to the growth we expect and for what we are after down the road. Cutting contest are held at this time in Brazil, South Africa, France and I understand they held one in Germany. These are not ABS events but have got them going in their own countries tailored after their needs and goals. By all means gather in your own places and cut and test or in the privacy of your own shop. The collector and user will benifit which is the purpose.
 
Jerry,

Would it be possible to expand the events at the rope cutting competition Ed Schempp won? They must already have the legal and emergency problems worked out.

-Jose
 
Would it be possible to expand the events at the rope cutting competition Ed Schempp won? They must already have the legal and emergency problems worked out.
Click to expand...

Or maybee a preliminary contest on friday or Saturday at Blade in where the winner gets to cut in the championship on sunday
 
Just my observation, but most of the detractors/advice givers/nit pickers/etc of the competition seem to be people who have never competed.

I don't see any of the regular cutters adding negative comments. I wonder why?

A simple observation...no more....no less.....
 
Originally posted by jbgatlin
Just my observation, but most of the detractors/advice givers/nit pickers/etc of the competition seem to be people who have never competed.

I don't see any of the regular cutters adding negative comments. I wonder why?

A simple observation...no more....no less.....
Click to expand...

Just my observation, but that seems to be a very narrow view of things.
 
Here goes nothing...
There are 2 great benefits to cutting contests. They are wonderful venues for showing off and promoting the forged blade. They are also learning tools for the participants.

The events are chosen to demonstrate the cutting ability of current generation forged blades. Jerry puts a lot of thought into the individual events so as to be legitimate tests of the knife, while at the same time being a little splashy. The spectators like swinging ropes and flying chips. Everyone gets a kick out of big John cutting cans of water and taking a soaking! Even for non knife spectators it is water cooler talk monday at work.

Jerry will also take advantage of the time setting up your cut to introduce you to the croud. Next time up he will tell them what awards you have won in the past, or what events/show you regularly participate in. He may tell a joke to help you relax. I think the cutters are so nervous they don't realize Jerry is even doing this for them.

If you notice, the first test is usually designed to dull your edge. There is an accuracy test that comes after the chopping so you are a little tired, and maybe your hand is tingling if your handle design is lacking. He also includes things that you have not seen before, that are do-able, if you use your knowledge of cutting previous materials and apply it to the new challenge. If the 10 people before you all attempt the same cut the same way and fail, you are supposed to use your head and figure out why they weren't successful and try something that will work. This is another thing that Jerry puts time and thought into. More work for him, but it makes you think and learn! I don't want to know my knife can pass certain prescribed tests, I want to be suprised, so I can use my head and keep improving my blades in ways I otherwise would not have discovered.

For some reason, competeing with the other contestants helps you get to know them better. Cementing relationships with other makers. Examining their blades and watching how they cut. Listening to the sound their knives make. Associating certain blade geometry with excelling, or bombing certain events. Being surprised, and having to rethink your own theories.

I would just like to thank the guys that do the work so I have the opportunity to participate. When it comes right down to it all you have to do is show up to enter. Thats the easy part.

Dan Farr
 
Outstanding post Dan.

Read Dan Farr's post a couple of times. He sums up what it's all about beautifully. He's saying what the rest of us have been pointing out all along regarding the primary purpose of the events. The competition was designed to be an educational tool for the participants, as well as a crowd pleaser.

Read Kevin Cashen's post again as well. Same thing. I particularly liked Kevin's comment:
"I think the cutting competitions are a very good thing for the whole business. It is pulling things back in line from the crowbar mentality brought about by misinterpretation of the ABS tests. Everybody taking the J.S. and M.S. too literally had kinda put cutting and edge retention in the back seat. The cutting competitions got us all making good knives that have to cut again".

Why did I single these two guys out? Look at the parallels.

  • Both are actual competitors in these events, not sideliners.
  • Both are previous winners of an ABS cutting competition.
  • Both won competitions that were not in the Southern US. (This helps dispel the idea that it is a Southern ABS championship)

Another important parallel is something that did not appear in either posts. Neither one mentioned anything about publicity, notoriety, trophies, etc. They both have competed for all the right reasons. Winnings great. Getting a trophy/plaque/medal is great. But both of these guys were in it for the primary purpose of testing the ability of their blades, and making mental notes of what worked well, what didn't, and how to make the next one better. The adrenaline rush that comes along with the competitive spirit, and the honor of taking home the trophy are secondary side benefits.

You never hear Kevin Cashen, Dan Farr, John Fitch, Jimmy Crowell, Ray Kirk, Reggie Barker, etc. bragging about their wins. They all are interested in making a better knife. My point, which may be a weak one to some, is that if one's primary purpose is the win, a trophy, or publicity, then he/she is in it for the wrong reason.

If you absolutely can't travel to one of the already sanctioned events, don't let that hold you up. Get together and have one with friends in your area, and learn from it. Who gives a hang if it doesn't get you in Blade Magazine, or something to hang on your wall? Eventually you will be able to compete in and possibly win one of the ABS sanctioned events if that is a top priority for you. They are expanding, but as has been stated numerous times already, it takes time. There's a whole lot more to it than just saying, "We're gonna have one", and sending out flyers.
 
As of right now you will have to travel to do the cutting events. The same way that you have to travel to Atlanta if you want to go for the judging of your JS and MS stamps. When someone wants their stamp bad enough they travel and do not think nothing of it. Same applies here. What the ABS board will do I cant tell you at this time cause I simply do not know. I do know they have a five year plan to continue to promote the forged blade with many different proposals. The ABS board members try to look at what benifits the majority.
j
 
Originally posted by primos
...You never hear Kevin Cashen, Dan Farr, John Fitch, Jimmy Crowell, Ray Kirk, Reggie Barker, etc. bragging about their wins. They all are interested in making a better knife. My point, which may be a weak one to some, is that if one's primary purpose is the win, a trophy, or publicity, then he/she is in it for the wrong reason...
Click to expand...

Thanks Terry, you are on the right track here. The reason I got involved in the cutting competitions was that I was informed of talk going about that damascus must not be as good as mono steel because nobody ever used it for a competition blade. That was true back then. When Jerry Fisk asked if I would consider entering with a damascus blade, I told myself "I can do better, I will win with a damascus blade!". Fortunatley I was able to do just that. To this day, I do not care if they mention my name at all, as long as they say a damascus blade won the competition!

So I guess I have an agenda, but it is not for the glorification of Kevin Cashen.

The comradery aspect should not be overlooked. None of us are out to beat the other guys. We will give each other advice while waiting to cut, and we cheer each other along. I have never looked at it as us against each other, I always looked at it like us against the devious minds of Mike and Jerry! ;)
 
To be called "devious" by you guys is a compliment. I do try to live up to ya'lls expectations. THANK YOU! mike
 
Although I haven't yet prepared a knife for a cutting contest, I have always gotten a big kick out of the inventive tests Jerry and the other guys have come up with to test different areas of the blade. The contest blades have to be tough enough to chop with, yet have a keen edge for slicing cuts. Who ever expected to be stabbing styrofoam balls hanging from a string? So you need a pointy tip also.
I always thought the point of changing up events was to keep guys from making a very specific kind of knife to pass a certain test.
The contestants are pushing their abilities to the limit in an effort to build a blade that will do a variety of things well. As Jerry pointed out, you don't have any control over what a customer might use your knife for, so you had better do your best to build a blade with good all-around performance.
Most of all, I thought the contest was for FUN!!! Let the crybabies stay home.
JP
 
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