Using a Sword For Home Defense.

L6steel

L6steel

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
5,855
I would hope anyone deciding to use anything for home defense would take the time to train and practice scenarios that they might expect to face. Even if you choose a gun for your home defence you need to train with it, not just load it and stick it under your pillow. A sword could be an excellent home defense weapon if the user took the time to learn how best to use it.

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Take care!! Michael
jesus.jpg


Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!

My Web Site
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
Hello L6Steel,

I took a look at your website and saw the D-handled bowie and was impressed with its beauty.

I, too think that a short sword or a large bowie could, with the proper training be effectively employed for home defense.

Kindest Regards,

p9999

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"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child.", King Lear, Act I, Scene 4.
 
I agree as well. I large bowie or a short sword would be quite functional for home defense ... especially if you know how to use it.

I also agree that a gun (with proper training) would be a better choice, but you make due with what you have available.

Someone referred to the sound of a 12 gauge shell being chambered as a great laxative, and I agree. However, I think that the sight of someone moving towards you with 15-20" of sharp steel while you're in the tight confines of a house, would be just as good.

Thanks!

Dave.
 
L6,
What you say is obviously 100% correct. Any weapon requires proper training. I should think a sword requires more training than most, for a variety of reasons.
But aren't swords somewhat messy for home use? I can hear my wife now, "Sure, you saved the family, but who's going to clean up that mess!"
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HJK:
But aren't swords somewhat messy for home use? I can hear my wife now, "Sure, you saved the family, but who's going to clean up that mess!"</font>
Click to expand...

Your response "Yeah, I ... SAVED THE FAMILY ... do I have to do EVERYTHING around here?"
smile.gif
At this point you'd better run like h@ll because even that sword won't save you.

I'm lucky! My wife would give me a big sloppy kiss and tell me that I'm her hero as she takes the sword from me and ... hands me a bucket and scrub brush!
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Dave

 
Personally I think a sword is a rotten idea for home defense. Sure it's better then nothing but what happens if the bad guy has a gun? He's going to see you and your sword and you are going to find yourself in the unenviable position of having brought a knife to a gunfight.
 
I am certainly NO knife fighting expert. But I do know enough to simply giggle at people who show there ignorance by stating in general that swords and knives are useless if the bad guy has a gun.

In home defense, and many out of home self defense situations will occur at contact distance. I submit that those who actually know will tell you that at that distance, when one person has a gun, and the other a knife it comes down to speed, some skill and lots of luck on both sides.

True story. Details such as names and dates are left out as well as location, suffice it to say it was a lawful gathering at a nice place. A friend of mine had gone to this gathering, and at the time had taken his new Cold Steel Tanto to show to one of his other knife collector friends. This was a party of an up-scale social nature. Seems another group drove by the place the party was taking place and decided to go join it themselves. The leader of the group was told nicely that it was a private celebration and he would have to leave. Being extra drunk, the stranger (scumbag) took great offense and whipped out his POS .25 auto and shot one of the party attendees in the butt. My friend while showing off his knife gos out to see what the noise was. Bad guy sees the knife and turns and points his gun at my friend. In a purely defensive reflex my friend gets a death grip on the gun which also causes it to jam up. At the same time, the instict to grap the weapon also occured to the bad guy...sooo, he reflexivly grabs the new CS Tanto...whoops
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Anyways, the point is, to say that a knife or sword is always useless against the gun is stupid and ingnorant.

 
Nobody said anything about "always." Generally however a gun is better in a self defense situation then a knife. If it wasn't the case only recreational shooters would be buying handguns. I'd be hard pressed to think of a particular self defense situation where I'd rather have a knife.

[This message has been edited by Triton (edited 06-08-2001).]
 
Richard, speed and suprise is important but do you know what is the absolute most important thing? In the immortal words of John Wayne in the Shootist, the most important thing is being willing. Most people think they wouldn't hesitate to shoot or stab someone especially a burgular in their home, but I bet it isn't as easy as we think.

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Take care!! Michael
jesus.jpg


Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!

Cooper Custom Knives
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!

[This message has been edited by L6STEEL (edited 06-21-2001).]
 
Richard,
"I am certainly NO knife fighting expert. But I do know enough to simply giggle at people who show there ignorance by stating in general that swords and knives are useless if the bad guy has a gun."

I will say this. In general, swords and knives are useless if the bad guy has a gun.

While I have no doubt that your story is true, I'm afraid that for every "Blade against Gun" success story, there are a hundred "Gun against Blade" success stories.

Yes, many of us train to use a knife against a gun if ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, but I find it difficult to believe that anyone would PREFER to go up against a gun with any sort of edged weapon be it sword or knife.
If you take a quick look at history, the "Era of the Sword" died almost the moment the "Era of the gun" began. Why is this? Because with far less training, it is possible to become competent with a firearm than with a sword.

Notice I do not say "expert" just competent. You do not need to be an expert to make a very fast hit center of mass on a man standing 7 yards away from you with a pistol. True, the greater your expertise, the greater your speed and accuracy, but we're talking about being competent to defend yourself.

I can take a willing student who's never fired a gun before in their life and give them the level of handgun competence necessary to defend themselves from an attack in the space of one weekend.

The level of competence I can give a beginner with a sword in one weekend is negligable. To be able to present, strike and withdraw at a speed great enough to negate the effectiveness of a drawn firearm isn't something you learn overnight. Nor over the course of a month.

Do I feel I have that level of competence?
Probably, but I'll also probably NEVER know. If one day, someone attacks me on the street or in my home, I will not be responding with a sword, I'll be using a nice, modern, effective .45acp.

Now if someone has NO option to own a firearm, then yeah, fine! Find an alternative that works for YOU! For some it'll be a ball bat, WA-1 sticks, Kitchen knife, whatever. But if it's going to be a sword, then my advice to them is, get a VERY good sword and learn how to use it. Find an Swordmaster, spend a couple years learning the basics, and practice, practice, practice. After a couple of years, (at the least) you may have a serious home defense option. Then again, you may just get blown away by someone who didn't bother to obey the gun laws. That's the breaks, and it can happen to anyone.

Now, on another note, you made the statement over at Practical Tactical,

"...I will go a step farther though, and say that few of the supposed "experts" opinons are not only ignorant, but border on absurd. Ive got a real urge to go off on one that I believe I could make a really good case that he is full of crap,... Anyways, I think until the sword forum gets some real knowledge in there, that wont be run off by a BS artist, I shall stay away from it in the interest of keeping my blood pressure down."

I don't know who you're talking about, maybe it's me or Robert, or who knows? But my suggestion to you is to have a talk with that person and work out your differences, and then come on over here to the Sword Forum and participate. If you have knowledge, it's far better to share it than sit back and scoff at someone you feel is wrong. Seems to me, that THAT is the "elitist" attitude.

Humbly submitted for your consideration,
IMHO, YMMV, TIOLI etc.




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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
MOLON LABE!
 
What if grandma had balls? She's be granddad! This is what my old MA instructor told us often! We can play the what if game until we are blue in the face.

Having said that, here's my knowledge/beliefs, which I'll share, for what it's worth:

At close ranges (cops say within 21 feet I believe) blades are to be taken seriously. And it doesn't take much to get a bad dude with a blade; certainly it doesn't take years. Bury the blade into a bad guy to the hilt. Period. Not as hard as some want to make it sound.

The point about being willing is important. Having a blade in yoru hand but not being willing to use it is useless. Make that mental decision, practice, and bury your blade to the hilt into a bad guy

Home defense situations "should" give you the advantage. it is your home, you should be able to find your way around in the dark, you can use the element of surprise, etc. Even if the bad dude has a gun, you have surprise on your hands. Surprise the bad dude and bury your blade to the hilt.

If you have decided to try and surprise a bad dude, a knife in your hands will give you a much better chance against an invader armed with a gun, than if you have an umbrella. I'll take my Cold Steel tanto over a stick, umbrella, can of food or empty hands any day.

Don't count on shotgun pumping sounds or shiny blades scaring bad dudes. If it happens, great. Your plan should be burying your blade to the hilt!!!

I think that is all, for now! Mike (L6STEEL) is 100% right. Training makes all the difference. But mental training is as important as the physical stuff. You have to be willing to use force, and once you get over that problem, you CAN train to use a sword for home defense effectively. Though a gun may be ideal in most circumstances, it is not always possible, practical, or handy.

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"Come What May..."
 
Hey Crayola,
Good comments that I mostly agree with.
But...
<b."At close ranges (cops say within 21 feet I believe) blades are to be taken seriously. And it doesn't take much to get a bad dude with a blade; certainly it doesn't take years. Bury the blade into a bad guy to the hilt. Period. Not as hard as some want to make it sound.[/b]

If you change that sentence to "Bury the blade into a bad guy to the hilt before he shoots you suddenly the required skill level increases dramatically, and that was my entire point, because you are suddenly facing a much higher level of expertise. Beginners and people who don't know know how to fight don't often beat a gun with a blade, and "experts" fare only a little better, and then only when the guy holding the gun is an idiot.

Given an expert swordsman and an expert shooter, you're going to wind up with a dead swordsman almost every time.


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
MOLON LABE!
 
True Ken, as long as there is adequate distance and people are duelling. I agree that guns are, generally speaking, much better weapons than blades. But a blade can make a good home defense weapon. Some people don't want a gun, don't have a gun, can't get a gun, whatever. But if you can surprise a bad guy with a blade, it doesn't take much to dispatch the bad guy.

That is the beauty of weapons: they are equalizers. Knights were priveledged warriors on the battlefield until lowly peasants were armed with guns! Give a pissed off 100 pound weakling a dagger and it doesn't take much for them to reach out and get you!

The key is understanding strengths and weaknesses, which requires training/thought, which is what L6Steel was getting at. Should I yell at a bad guy from 30 feet away when he has a gun and I have a tanto? NO! Should I hide around corners or try to sneak behind a bad guy with my tanto? YES! These sorts of questions need to be answered, and they are answered best with training.

Here's a tip I just thought of: get a good squirt gun and a long magic marker. Give the squirt gun to a training buddy and you take the magic marker (training buddy shoudl wear old light colored shirt!). See how well you can surprise a "bad guy" in your house in the dark! Yes, this has limits to it as a training mechanism, but it i sbetter than nothing. Just like a shord is in home defense: better than nothing!

This is a great thread, by the way. This one and the other "sword for home defense" threads taken together are awesome. Lots of people discussing the issue in a more or less rational manner. This is what the forums are all about!

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"Come What May..."
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In a purely defensive reflex my friend gets a death grip on the gun which also causes it to jam up. </font>
Click to expand...

Barring extraordinary circumstances, I don't think I'm off base saying that it's not physically possible to prevent a striker-fired automatic (as most if not all of those little POS .25s are) from firing by grabbing it tightly. You could cause it to "jam up" if you grabbed it tightly the nanosecond after it fired, preventing it from cycling the next round.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
 
For those of us who cannot own guns due to legal restrictions, and who aren't skilful with swords, a crossbow might be an option...I'm thinking of this option currently, but must find out about the law in my country first.

I think if a sword is the only option, maybe short blades coupled with 2-handed grips might be easier to control and maneuver in tight spaces, especially for the novice. Short swords by Jerry Hossom, Laci Szabo (his design, but made by Black Cloud Knives), Wally Hayes and Criswell spring to mind.

Of course, I do think that a gun offers the most range and stopping power. My favourite combination would be the M-16 which I had while in the military. Fitted with a bayonet, one can shoot a person at long range and use bayonet fighting tactics at short range.

BTW, I would just like to ask if anyone here is actually seriously concerned about their safety, and for whom home defense is a real, and not merely 'academic' question. I live in a dangerous neighbourhood, where shooting and stabbing incidents occur just along the road along the front of my house (albeit not too often). I get people tampering with my alarm system, and pressing my doorbell at 4am, so for me the question is real. I keep a 14" bowie currently...Just want to see how you guys manage your safety, especially if you have a family to protect.

Cheers
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History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen. ~Enoch Powell, Speech to the British Conservative Party Conference, 1967~
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
a crossbow might be an option...I'm thinking of this option currently, but must find out about the law in my country first.</font>
Click to expand...

Depending on where you live, crossbows are likely to be as strictly controlled as handguns, at least in terms of the legal repercussions if you actually used one. I have my doubts as to whether or not a single-shot, very-slow-to-reload weapon would be a very good home defense item, though of course any weapon is better than nothing.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
 
Looks like Richard won't be responding to my comments.
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum41/HTML/001105.html

Adamant,
I think one of the first problems you'd encounter with a Crossbow is that you cannot store it cocked. Leaving the limbs at full draw for an extended period of time would stress them so badly that eventually, you'd trigger the bow, and the limbs would shatter. This places you in the position of having to cock the bow and load a bolt, possibly all while an intruder is coming for you. If you manage to load in time, you only get ONE shot, and the crossbow is not known for it's ease of handling, especially in fairly confined spaces.
Also, while I'm not positive about English Law, I know that Canadian Law prohibits their use as weapon and I understand that Canada modeled their law on the UK. Check it out first.

Crayola,
Okay, I've been thinking about this and here's what I've come up with.

To use a sword to successfully defend yourself against a firearm, there are several considerations that must be dealt with first.

1. What is the Primary Objective?
A. To kill your opponent?
B. To stop your opponent?
C. To keep him from shooting you?

I'd have to say, the primary objective would be C. to keep him from shooting you. I assume you agree.

2.Given a sword, what is the most reliable manner of preventing Mr. BG from shooting me?
A. To "run him through."
B. To decapitate him.
C. To disable the gun hand.

Running him through is a highly risky proposition. Mr. BG will be in a great deal of pain, but will not die instantly, and very well may manage to shoot you either from reflex or from fear of being further damaged. So "A." doesn't look like that great an option.

Decapitation? In a dark house, in a possibly confined space, moving into a position where this is possible would expose you to risk of gunfire for an inordinate amount of time, and there is a good chance you will not have enough room for the full swinging blow required to make this a reality. So "B." isn't looking like such a hot option either.

So what does that leave us with?
C. To disable the gun hand. This appears to be the SUREST way of guaranteeing that your hide does not sprout extra holes.

Now I'm sure that it would be very easy to imagine a scenario where Mr. BG is courteous enough to walk around inside your home with his gun in hand, and that hand extended forward of him like some sort of sacrificial offering, but reality almost never makes things this easy.

In a movie, Mr. BG comes up to the corner of the hallway with his back pressed to the wall, and extends his gunhand around the corner a moment before his head follows.

In reality, Mr. BG has done a hundred hot prowls and learned his skills in jail from guys that did a thousand. He will not hug the inside wall, he'll stay to the OUTSIDE wall, where he has a better view of what's around the corner before it can reach out and touch him. The second this happens, there is now a swordsman who is out of striking range, and a gunman that has set up an almost perfect shooting problem.

The swordsman's ONLY option at this point is a desperate lunge, hoping to inflict as much damage as possible. He must take at least one step, choose an attack, raise his sword to whatever position he chooses to strike from, and then strike.
All the gunman has to do is point and squeeze.
Given that you both started at the same time, what's most likely to happen?

This is not the scenario we were hoping for, is it?

Now, I realize that those of you who live in the UK and Canada may not be able to obtain a firearm, and even if you could, actually keeping it for self defense is a punishable crime in and of itself. In that case, if you feel you need a home defense weapon, a sword may well be your only viable option. Please realize, I'm not telling you NOT to have a sword for Home Defense, I'm telling you that you need to be aware of the difficulties and disadvantages that you must overcome to do so. They are not inconsiderable.

If you CAN own a firearm for home defense, forget about the sword, get a gun, and learn how to use it.

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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
MOLON LABE!

[This message has been edited by Ken Cook (edited 06-10-2001).]
 
There have been many interesting, some realistic, and some almost entertaining responses to this concept. In my experience as a LEO, firearms instructor, and martial artist who specialized in Chinese sword tactics and techniques, I must emphatically state that in the aforementioned scenarios, should Mr. B.G. (Mr. Bad Guy), enter into my home with mayhem in mind, my first line of defense is a Ruger P-94 .40 cal. pistol loaded with 165gr Golden Sabers. Second line of defense is my Remington 870 Express pump shotgun loaded with 2&3/4' #000 buckshot. I have other firearms that should never have to enter into the equation. So therefore, my swords, razor sharp combat grade, should never have to leave their places on the rack over the mantle. I have to agree with the old axiom, "only a fool takes a knife to a gunfight". Just my opinion,

Kelly Willis
 
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