VG-10 vs 1095

Indiana Joe

Indiana Joe

Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
729
BACKGROUND: I've recently seen some knife reviews online that sing the praises of VG-10 fixed blades for outdoor use (camping, etc.) due to the rust resistance. However, according to the reviews, the drawback seems to be a lack of toughness in that the VG-10 blade can little nicks in the blade when chopping. Then there is a recommendation for well-heat treated high carbon steel like 1095, SK5, O1, etc.

QUESTION: If VG-10 steel has a lot of carbon in it (the same as 1095 per Syderco chart), what has been added to the VG-10 that makes it more suceptible to chipping (ie not as tough)?
 
The reason VG-10 is not as tough is that it is normally heat treated to a harder state. Hardness and toughness are usually mutually exclusive characteristics. You usually get less of one when you get more of the other. There are also tougher stainless steels but probably not any that are tougher at the RC 59-60 level.
 
larger amounts of chrominun tend to form larger carbides [if my facts are right]. this makes higher alloyed steels inherently more brittle.nearly all the chopping contests use lower chrome & hi --carbon.
 
I would not use a VG-10 blade for chopping or batoning wood. That is what 1095 is for. VG-10 is awesome in folders, not too sure about fixed blades. I'd rather go with INFI, 1095, or similar.
 
DennisStrickland said:
larger amounts of chrominun tend to form larger carbides [if my facts are right]. this makes higher alloyed steels inherently more brittle.nearly all the chopping contests use lower chrome & hi --carbon.
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+1
Carbides are harder and more brittle than the steel matrix. They tend to build up and form clusters. Consider a pure chocolate to a "whole nuts chocolate".

Much carbides = more brittle
Large carbides = more brittle
clustered carbides = more brittle

Less carbides = tougher
fine carbides = tougher
homogenious distributed carbides = tougher

more carbon = more carbides
less carbon = less carbides

Good heat treatment = fine, well distributed carbides = as tough as possible for a particular steel grade.

Bad heat treatment = crab.

carbide is metal+carbon

Now you want the best of both?

That is, what many steel mills are looking for.
 
D2 is tougher than most stainless steels. It takes a good edge and holds it and resists rust. I went through 3 sanding belts trying to sand out a small nick in the blade in a Queen folder.
VG10 is a true stainless, and has excellent edge holding. It is not as tough a steel as D2, and nowhere near the high carbon steels.
I wouldn't use a stainless blade for chopping. If you need that, you may be better off with an A2 blade, 1095, or another high carbon steel.
Personally, I'd bring a hatchet for chopping.
 
Blop said:
+1
Carbides are harder and more brittle than the steel matrix. They tend to build up and form clusters. Consider a pure chocolate to a "whole nuts chocolate".

Much carbides = more brittle
Large carbides = more brittle
clustered carbides = more brittle

Less carbides = tougher
fine carbides = tougher
homogenious distributed carbides = tougher

more carbon = more carbides
less carbon = less carbides

Good heat treatment = fine, well distributed carbides = as tough as possible for a particular steel grade.
Click to expand...
So far I understand--choose the blade steel for the intended use of the knife, more chromium will cause less toughness, and more carbides will also cause more brittleness.

But I'm just making sure I understand--
more carbon causes more carbides, which causes more brittleness? Is that why a good heat treatment on a high carbon (ex: 1095) blade steel will decrease the brittleness that's caused by the more carbon/more carbides?
I guess that means a high carbon blade steel with a poor heat treatment...that will just leave the high carbon steel as a brittle blade, correct?
 
The Falkniven A2 is an example of a great chopping vg-10 core blade, yes it does chip but if you are careful the chips will be very small and only a few show up. The vg-10 holds an edge much longer than 1095 and does not rust nearly as 1095 and when your outdoors and god forbid you get in a situation where its wet and you'll have to survive for a few days the 1095 edge might rust away on you.
 
Im not sure you can differentially heat treat VG-10. I know that with 1095 you can have a blade differentially heat treated that will result in a very hard edge with the blade getting softer the closer you get to the back of the blade. This is much how the Japanese treated their swords (im grossly simplifying) which gives toughness with an edge that can retain its sharpness.
 
I think people's concerns about carbon steels and rust are generally exaggerated. I regularly use 1095, and it always seems to be wet around here, and its never been an issue. I only ever oil my blade when I get home after a trip, all it gets in the field is a wipe on my pants, concerns about the edge rusting out seem overblown to me, just using the knife should ensure that won't happen.
That said, my experience with VG10 has been positive too, though I tend to use it mostly in folders.
 
CID25 said:
I think people's concerns about carbon steels and rust are generally exaggerated. I regularly use 1095, and it always seems to be wet around here, and its never been an issue. I only ever oil my blade when I get home after a trip, all it gets in the field is a wipe on my pants, concerns about the edge rusting out seem overblown to me, just using the knife should ensure that won't happen.
That said, my experience with VG10 has been positive too, though I tend to use it mostly in folders.
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I use a custom 1095 bird & trout knife every year to clean Salmon and its never had a bit of rust. Just have to clean it after use and dry it. I dont even oil it. This is after 10 plus years
 
Agreed on other points, but
Blop said:
carbide is metal+carbon
Click to expand...
Carbide in general is Carbon + X, where X isn't necessarily metal. E.g. Silicon Carbide. (X is less electronegative element than Carbon).
Plus some metals don't form carbides at all, e.g. Lead.
 
I live where it's wet most of the time(Oregon coast)and I prefer carbon steel on my fixed blades.If your edge rusts away in a few days,take some pictures so I can see it.
 
i agree with grim62 on the myth of carbon steels really dissolving in wet environments. i hunted oregon in the wet forests for 2 years & neither guns or knives got rusty. wipe equipment before going in & dry & treat guns & knives when you finish the day. lets not forget the marines fought for years in jungles with no stainless guns or knives. in the 2nd world war when the troops went in they did'nt return till war was over.all the axes & machetes & shovels used to build the panama canal were carbon steel.
 
There are some generalizations in this thread also, so keep that in mind. Chromium does cause brittleness (sometimes, in some steels), but it can also be a very good thing. Some very tough steels have a good amount of chromium in them, such as INFI.

If you are really serious about this, upgrade to gold and use the search feature. The amount of information you will find will be staggering. We have quite a few metallurgists on this forum, and they have written a virtual gold mine on this subject.

Keep in mind, plain old 1095 can really change it's nature due to it's heat treat. When taken up to 65 HRC, it performs like a "super" steel. VG10 was developed in Japan for horticulture, and the micro-chips, IIRC, were considered a positive for cutting fibrous material.
 
Indiana Joe said:
BACKGROUND: I've recently seen some knife reviews online that sing the praises of VG-10 fixed blades for outdoor use (camping, etc.) due to the rust resistance. However, according to the reviews, the drawback seems to be a lack of toughness in that the VG-10 blade can little nicks in the blade when chopping. Then there is a recommendation for well-heat treated high carbon steel like 1095, SK5, O1, etc.

QUESTION: If VG-10 steel has a lot of carbon in it (the same as 1095 per Syderco chart), what has been added to the VG-10 that makes it more suceptible to chipping (ie not as tough)?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I know "why". I do know what is.

VG10 holds an edge much better than 1095 when both are at 58-59 HRC.
1095 is tougher than VG10 when both alloys are at the same hardness.

While you can use a thick edge geometry and get a more brittle steel such as VG10 or D2 to be a fair chopper, you can more easily get low alloy steels to do so with a thinner edge. Low alloy steels are steels with less than 5% alloying elements. (That means D2 is not a low alloy steel. )

It's all a trade-off of properties. No one steel is good at everything.

Some makers, such as Fallkniven, use laminated VG10 to get a blade that is pretty tough, yet holds an edge really well. They are, in effect, using two alloys to get a combination of their properties.
 
Indiana Joe said:
I've recently seen some knife reviews online that sing the praises of VG-10 fixed blades for outdoor use (camping, etc.) due to the rust resistance. However, according to the reviews, the drawback seems to be a lack of toughness in that the VG-10 blade can little nicks in the blade when chopping.
Click to expand...

I have a great VG-10 outdoor use knife - but it is a folder and wont be used for chopping. It should be pretty good for any lighter duties that you might use a folder for though. It also has a rather fine edge which further precludes hard use - I'll use my big fixed blades for the hard use tasks.

The knife is a Spyderco Endura, it was a sabre grind when I got it but after grinding on diamond hones it is now a scandi grind. Excluding chopping/batoning it should be pretty handy when camping.
 
DennisStrickland said:
larger amounts of chrominun tend to form larger carbides [if my facts are right]. this makes higher alloyed steels inherently more brittle.nearly all the chopping contests use lower chrome & hi --carbon.
Click to expand...

Correct me if i don't understand your point but i don't agree.
The chromium carbides don't make the steel brittle, they increase the wear resistance; the free chromium increases the matrix hardness and thus increases the strength, decreases the toughness and makes the steel more brittle.

dantzk.
 
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