VG-10 vs 1095

dantzk8 i'm not sure but are'nt we saying about the same thing. we both agree that higher amounts of chrome can increase brittleness. my science may be lacking but all the best choppers are made with m4 which has a lower chrome content than zdp or vg10 or d2.
 
DennisStrickland said:
dantzk8 i'm not sure but are'nt we saying about the same thing. we both agree that higher amounts of chrome can increase brittleness. my science may be lacking but all the best choppers are made with m4 which has a lower chrome content than zdp or vg10 or d2.
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Dennis,

My point is that the brittleness of the chromium alloyed steels isn't due to the chromium carbides but to the free chromium of the matrix. My science isn't better than your's, far from, but it seems to me that it's wrong to say, as i've read in an other post, that "much carbides=more brittle".
By the way you are right about M4, it's a tough enough steel to be used in cutting competitions with success. The amount of chromium is low but the total amount of molybden, vanadium and tungsten combined to a large amount of carbon make of M4 a "carbided steel" which is tough, not brittle.

dantzk.
 
buffalo hump all the m4 choppers are custom made for the competing crowd. the makers say that m4 can be ground thinner than other alloys tried. the thin profile allows easier cutting & even with the thin edges m4 doe'nt chip or roll
 
danktz i follow your explanation & agree as to free chrome in the matrix. this was what i meant but failed to articulate. thanks, dennis
 
So, VG-10 will outlast a 1095 blade for things like cutting rope and wood carving. But 1095 will outlast a vg-10 blade for things like batoning and chopping because vg-10 will develop small chips in the blade?
 
1095 may be tough compared to a high chromium stainless, but is probably not tough enough for really big blades. Knife makers and sword makers tend to use steels with lower carbon for this purpose, like 5160 or 1084, 1070, 1060 - depending on how big the blade is.
I have some blades between 14-21 inches, and they are all 5160.
I do have a "small" knife that is 10" (a machete) and it is made from 1084 @ rc 54-56.
 
carbon steels give a little xtra assurance for the severe cutting & chopping. at 30 below zero i would'nt want to depend on a high chrome blade.
 
Indiana Joe said:
Is that why a good heat treatment on a high carbon (ex: 1095) blade steel will decrease the brittleness that's caused by the more carbon/more carbides?
I guess that means a high carbon blade steel with a poor heat treatment...that will just leave the high carbon steel as a brittle blade, correct?
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There are examples where the same alloy leads to very different steel grades (different properties) depending on the heat treatment.

In the german declaration there is an alloy, 1.2067 cold work steel grade compared to a ball bearing grade #1.3505. Different task, different heat treatment, different carbide size and distribution.
 
DennisStrickland said:
dantzk8 i'm not sure but are'nt we saying about the same thing. we both agree that higher amounts of chrome can increase brittleness. my science may be lacking but all the best choppers are made with m4 which has a lower chrome content than zdp or vg10 or d2.
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You're both right to an extent. The amount of free chromium has an effect on brittleness and so do carbides. The trick with carbides is where they are. Chromium carbides (Cr23C6 type, there's more than one type) form along grain boundaries. These will lead to brittle failure, even in the unhardenable 3xx series stainless steels. Evenly distributed, small carbides contribute less to brittleness, but enough of them will still get you there. M4 has this type of structure. The carbides are numerous, fairly evenly distributed, and small. Large carbides are more likely to actually touch each other, providing a continuous path of very brittle material for a crack to follow.
 
Minnesota said:
So, VG-10 will outlast a 1095 blade for things like cutting rope and wood carving. But 1095 will outlast a vg-10 blade for things like batoning and chopping because vg-10 will develop small chips in the blade?
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All other things being equal (blade shape, and edge geometry), yes.
 
arty said:
1095 may be tough compared to a high chromium stainless, but is probably not tough enough for really big blades. Knife makers and sword makers tend to use steels with lower carbon for this purpose, like 5160 or 1084, 1070, 1060 - depending on how big the blade is.
I have some blades between 14-21 inches, and they are all 5160.
I do have a "small" knife that is 10" (a machete) and it is made from 1084 @ rc 54-56.
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Wow!...Tons and tons of swords out there out of 1095. I have a custom Moran-style Bowie with an 11.5 inch blade that has felled many trees, yes trees and nary an nick or dent...1095.

I have a differentially heat treated Tameshigiri katana that I have cut loads of beer cans, trees, brush, mats....no dents or chips.
 
I like carbon steels better than stainlesses in every application other than folding knives. The freakin' Titanic is still corroding on the bottom in an entirely identifiable shape nearly 100 years after hitting the bottom of the Atlantic.

Your edge, and knife, in a simple carbon steel like 1095, will survive any environment you throw at it so long as you exercise some very basic and minimal preventative maintenance.
 
I have an F1 in laminated VG10, a Kabar in 1095 and a Recon Scout in SK5. Then all take an absolute beating and they all hold an edge superbly. So far I like the VG10 and SK5 the most.
 
HandofCod said:
I have an F1 in laminated VG10, a Kabar in 1095 and a Recon Scout in SK5. Then all take an absolute beating and they all hold an edge superbly. So far I like the VG10 and SK5 the most.
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Laminated VG10 has different properties than VG10.
They laminate it with soft steel so that the combination is tough, yet holds an edge like straight VG10.
 
me2 said:
You're both right to an extent. The amount of free chromium has an effect on brittleness and so do carbides. The trick with carbides is where they are. Chromium carbides (Cr23C6 type, there's more than one type) form along grain boundaries. These will lead to brittle failure, even in the unhardenable 3xx series stainless steels. Evenly distributed, small carbides contribute less to brittleness, but enough of them will still get you there. M4 has this type of structure. The carbides are numerous, fairly evenly distributed, and small. Large carbides are more likely to actually touch each other, providing a continuous path of very brittle material for a crack to follow.
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me2,

Thanks for sharing your knowledges; very interesting and informative post as always. Carbides forming grain boundaries is a good imagery. It makes me visualize the question.

dantzk.
 
Blop said:
Wrong! 1.2067 is not L1. Look here and then compare with 1.3505, that really is comparable to 52100:

http://www.metallograf.de/start.htm
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I've used metallograph quite a bit for compiling knife chart. However, Kaker which is also a German source lists Thyrodur 2067 as W-Nr 1.2067 and AISI L1/L3 - ref link.
I trust Kaker on L1, because they list multiple standard names for each steel as usual, and metalograph doesn't list anything but W-Nr/Din.

If you believe kaker is wrong and can provide some other credible source, I'll change the name grouping ASAP.

P.S. I went and double checked L1 composition, turned out I was missing correct Cr value. Thanks for pointing the problem out anyway.
 
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