Weapon Defintions - When does a Tool become a Weapon?

[migo]

I was just looking through canada's laws on knives. They are very clear on what prohibited/restricted weapons are, and which knives are prohibited/restricted (I just modified my Folder making it legal, if it opens by a flick of the wrist it's illegal here). However, when I got to the concealed section it became a bit more foggy. It says carrying a 'weapon' concealed was illegal. My question is what exactly counts as a weapon? A Swiss Army Knife is considered a tool, but it can be used as a weapon. I feel that my folder is practically A Swiss Army Knife with a more sleek look and minus all the other tools. But, I have a mini-bowie knife (9cm (~3.6") Blade, 10cm (~4") Handle), and I'm not sure if it's classified as a tool or a weapon.
Any help you can provide/hook me up with would be appreciated.

 

[kogatana]

Weapon Defintions - When does a Tool become a Weapon?

When it is "coupled" with intent. Anything can become a weapon. Example: As Mr. X lay lifeless on the tarmac, LEO asks Mr. Kogatana, "what was your intent with that credit card?" Kog: I intended to slice Mr. X's throat with the edge. Enter Miranda.

Please consider the following as well. Mr. Kogatana asks lovely Mrs. Kogatana "what was your intent with that credit card?" Mrs. Kog: I intended to go "max out" the credit line while shopping for a new wardrobe. Enter HUGE credit card bill!

In each example, the card was used as a, er, uhmm, weapon.

 

[migo]

Thanks for the reply, I already had that general idea already though.
Maybe my title was a bit misleading. I was wondering when something that is designed as a tool is commonly considered a weapon, ie a knife. The knife is for cutting numerous things, but is also an excellent weapon, and one of the more common ones, therefore what characteristics does a knife have to have (or not have) to be considered a tool or a weapon regardless of the situation. IE if a cop routinely stopped me or picked me up cause I looked like a suspect (it's happened to me before, I was stopped but they got the description of the right guy after a couple minutes who was wearing different clothes and was 3" shorter than me), searched me and found a knife on me. With a swiss army knife it would be automatically considered a tool (though perhaps confiscated, as pencils, etc, anything that could be used as a weapon is confiscated on arrest), a Balisong or Jacknife is a prohibited weapon, and I would get in deep trouble for carrying that around regardless of whether I used it. Those are clearcut examples, but I'm trying to figure out where my bowie fits in. I am planning on entering the military and becoming a lawyer and I don't want to be walking around with something illegal in my pocket. And I don't want to be legally walking around with a knife exposed on my belt.

 

[cerulean]

Sorry, I don't really know anything about Canadian law or how it works. In the U.S. though, this question gets debated over and over and over again in our courts and legislatures. "When is a knife a weapon and when is it just a tool?" The answer is: No one knows! It's an extremely complicated question on many different levels.

There was an interesting Supreme Court case in CO about a year ago where a guy was accused of carrying a concealed weapon - brass knuckles with a 2" or so knife blade sticking out the end. The court ruled that <u>the design of a knife alone is not enough to prove that the knife is a weapon; you have to prove that the person carrying it intended to use it as a weapon</u>. However, Colorado also has a blade length law, so anything with a blade longer than 3.5" is basically considered to be a weapon per se.

It's very difficult to prove that someone intended to use a knife as a weapon unless they A.) Actually use the knife as a weapon; or B.) Freely admit that they intended to use the knife as a weapon. That's why people on BFC frequently recommend that if an officer asks you "Are you carrying any weapons?", you should not respond by saying "Yes". If you do answer "Yes", you may have just confessed to commiting a crime.

The Colorado example is just one instance of how the weapon question is currently answered by law, but it will be answered differently in different places. You might want to talk to a professional lawyer to find out what's legal in your area, but even then you may still get only a general idea of how the courts might rule in your case.

 

[kogatana]

Intent was the gist I pontificated about in my first post. Shape, size, and design of a knife can be used to impeach the credibility of a suspect carrying it. These may, in turn, may be used to support the carriers intent, i.e., ...well, officer, my intent is to have this Leatherman Wave in my possession at all times while hiking though these woods in the event that I might need the various implements contained within this fine example of a multi-tool to save my life, capture and prepare daily sustinance, and build my overnight sleeping accommodations. The LEO will likely not have a problem with you carrying the multi-tool , however he might arrest you for being loquacious.

Shape, size, and design of a knife can be used as well to establish probable cause. Famous movie line badly quoted: “… a naked man running down an alley with an 8-inch butcher knife is not likely to be asking for a contribution to the Red Cross.”

Your bowie may be a special tool in the woods, however, in an urban environment, no matter how "blade friendly," it may become a liability.

Contacting a legal professional is good advise for anything.

 

[migo]

I have a paper route, but I only do it once a week. In that situation, because the papers are bundled with one of those plastic ties, I use the knife to cut them off. So, whenever I'm doing the paper route, or on those two days which it has to be delivered, I figure I have a pretty legitimate reason for carrying it around. If a cop stops me on those days, I'm not likely to get much trouble, however, from sunday through thursday I'm in a slightly more iffy situation. I guess I'll go contact a lawyer and see what they know. Thanks for the help.

 

[thatmguy]

I think the quote had something to do with how H.C. determined that the person was a rapist (just before he shot him.), and said something to the effect that a "man with an 8 inch butcher knife and a hard on was not there to..."

That was a great movie.

Mike

 

[~/|ristotle]

Wouldn't it be nice if our tools only began to be considered as a weapon after we went on the offense. A hunter considers his rifle his tool, I consider my sidearm my tool the same as my knives. My intent is not to use either, though it is deffinitely within the realm of possibility that the intention of others may require me to use my tools to protect my interests, namely my well being and that of my loved ones. Best of luck finding a sympathetic legal counsel.

 

[LaMess]

A rapist with a knife and a hard-on? Which is the weapon and which is the tool?

 

[D7reamers]

If it's on found on you by LE, it's a weapon.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

D7Reamers:

What an LEO thinks of your tool is irrelevant. It's what the courts say that matters. An LEO may arrest you for having your knife concealed, but if the courts consider the knife a tool and not a weapon it was never a weapon in the eyes of the law. What counts is the law, as written, and the judgements of the courts. LEO's opinions are not necessarily any more valid than yours, but they can just arrest you for them.

I guess it comes down to: Why are you nervous about carrying your knife (the general you, not the specific)? If there is a reason to be nervous, examine it and find out if the carry is still worth the nerves. I carry two and I have no doubts that some cop with more donuts than brains would hassle me about them, but I don't do stupid things with them like brandish or threaten or otherwise call attention to them. I also don't go out of my way to conceal them (just plain ol' pocket clips). So I don't have any worries. *I* can live with the (perceived) extremely unlikely possibility of a concealed weapons arrest. What the original poster has to ask himself is, can he?

Now to answer the posters question:

The only things automatically considered weapons by Canadian law are defined in the code. A weapon, paraphrased, is defined as anything listed as a restricted or prohibited weapon, any firearm, or any object designed (or whose primary purpose is) to cause injury or death [to a human]. At the same time, anything actually used as a weapon is a weapon regardless of what its designed intent is; if you shiv someone with a screwdriver it's still an assault with a weapon.

Intent also matters. So, if stopped, always have a ready answer for why that 9" bowie is concealed. That answer had better not be "self defense". If you want to carry the bowie for self defense (and admit it to the police), don't conceal it. Also be careful of running afoul of the "bringing a weapon to a public meeting" offense. Public meeting not being defined by law.

Pierre