What’s just fine?

LRB, I went back and read your posts on this thread. You offered a prime example. You just about and came right out and said " if you give a rip about your customers you will use a commercial quenchant and not mineral oil" while offering no data. I understand that quenchants were designed to be quenchants, but once again where is the evidence to show that mineral oil for one falls short. That is all, just facts not barbs.
There has to be a matter of degrees. It can't be just black or white.

Alden

Thanks SShepherd. :)
 
Alden - I think it all comes down to what steel you're using. I do believe 1095 will quench too slow in mineral oil, but O1 or 5160 may be just fine. If I'm selling knives, however, I do believe in spending a bit extra to do things "right". Maybe "vet grade" mineral oil is just as fast as Houghton's G, Parks AA or the McMaster-Carr 28 second oil, but I don't know because I don't have the means to test it.

To me, commercial quenches are proven and back yard quenches are unproven, I do think it's a disservice to our clients if we're working in unknowns just to save a few dollars. If you're working with a slower quenching steel then there are many alternatives that should work just fine, but if it's something that requires a fast quench, why take the chance? I haven't seen any data from the other side when I hear about how 1095 quenches "just fine" in vegetable oil, motor oil, atf, mineral oil etc.
 
I wasn't pointing you out to the moderators, I was just saying that on any forum, they are the ones responsible to keep things flowing smoothly, and to correct what they don't think proper to that forum. Nothing personal at all in that part. I ain't no squealer, and I have seen examples of what you say, but your wording implied, at least to me, the majority of the forum members were guilty of this. I guess I'm also one of the disciples, but I would like to know the answer to Jakes question myself. I don't know that I have ever seen a comparison test reported. It could be interesting, but what would you think if the testing showed a marked difference? Of course I would not condone catcalls and juvenile name calling, but if the testing showed only a minor difference, that could come from other side of the fence also. People will be people, and there are always a few in any group that will show bad manners.
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
I understand that quenchants were designed to be quenchants, but once again where is the evidence to show that mineral oil for one falls short.
Click to expand...

Thats the point. No one here has seen scientific studies on generic quenches. All we have to go on are the studies that manufacturing companies have spent huge amounts of money to develop.

I say that if the available information out there doesn't tell you enough to make a decision on what to do, you have three choices:
1. Trust that the metals companies have most likely done their homework and supplement that trust with ongoing blade testing.
2. Set out to develop testing to prove/disprove exactly what you are suggesting through careful study and experimentation.
3. Rely solely on testing the blades you HT to determine if your current quench is resulting in the performance you want.

There really isnt anything wrong with any of the three options. Pretty much everyone starts in option 3, some move on to option 1 to ensure consistency and eek out any added performance they may be able to get, and some must do opton 2 but keep their secrets private as I don't know of any formal studies that have been passed around.
 
To every venture there is a learning curve and a developmental sequence. If you skip these you are less able in some ways than the person who has succesfully completed them. This last year I have struggled and cussed working thru the processes and just experiential knowledge of forging and heat treating. I learn by screwing up mostly, not that we should strive to be ignorant. On the other hand I have benefitted from all you guys and your experience. Just yesterday I got an oven from sugar creek and as soon as I can afford it I will invest in some parks or tough quench. I still have enjoyed the the screwed up edge quenching ,veggie oil, edge packing, and other ignorant stuff Ive experienced this past year and Am greatful for all the help and learning from all you quys.
God Bless james7729
 
OK, this thread is starting to upset me. Ed and Alden are 2 guys that I respect. Ed from his writings and knives and Alden from meeting him, receiving help and his knives. But while you guys get on our cases, you don't answer his question either. This is because there is no answer. If there is no answer, how can I be an A-hole for saying so? No one has the magical chart of quench speeds for random media. We cant share info that doesn't exist and how would it be good to share half ass info that is by no means correct? No one faults the Japanese style guys for using water on fast quench steels or says that a certain oil CAN'T work for oil hardening steels. Only that all these random media are inconsistent (with the exception of water which has a known speed range but can cause cracking). I can't very well say the mineral oil in your garage, one that is probably a different make up and viscosity than mine, will quench this fast. It would be a lie and since when is placating people good for advancement?

I do recognize that these threads all tend to go in one direction, but it is because of the sheer number of them. No one would slam me for suggesting good sandpaper for cost effectiveness. No one would slam me for suggesting using a known steel that hardens well. I don't know of anyone here who says that your knives suck because you use whatever quenchant you do, or that you shouldn't be making knives and having fun because you can't afford the materials. When you start to heat treat and it doesn't work there could be many reasons and to many variables can make it hard to pin down what went wrong.

I think when you make a mistake on a knife you should stop and try to understand what went wrong. That way you can avoid the same mistake in the future. If you heat treat is full of variables you may never know what one is the culprit. If you can spend money on quenchant I do believe it will help you. There are guys out there making MUCH better knives than mine with mineral oil. If that's the type of statement you want, I can happily oblige. If you want me to tell you percentage difference in conversion between Parks and random medium X that I don't even have access to, I can't do that and I would rather just say so. I am not a Kevin Cashen or Parks quenchant disciple any more than I am for crucible or Sanvik who make my steel. I will say what I have found to work best. It makes me sad that these threads come to this. This forum is about sharing info and voicing opinions. Maybe we need to watch how we say things but I know the contributors here do so out of a love for knife making. In a profession and hobby that used to be full of closely guarded secrets, I love that I can get real data on quenching and a myriad of opinions on the subject.
 
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i feel kind of bad! i never meant for this thread to turn into this. i was just trying to understand quenching better and to understand all the conflicting information.

my apologies to everyone.

jake
 
Don't fell bad Jake. This is the nature of quenching threads. I honestly don't know why this particular topic is so loaded and get people so riled up. If I come here and say I think CPM 154 is better than 154 cm no one bats an eye. Talk to Kevin one on one and I bet he can help you get what you want. Heat treating is complicated and there is no one answer. Just look at D2 steel. Dozier makes amazing D2 knives and doesn't cryo, while others have paper that show how much cyro can help D2. This is one of the things I still don't get and probably never will. In case no one else says it... You are in no way unintelligent or wrong for asking the answers to these questions. You unknowingly opened a can of forum worms. PLEASE, have fun and come back for more info and discussion. Nothing is wrong with trying to get going without spending a bunch of money. Many long time knife makers have nailed down a solid HT without comercial quench, many knife makers use water. I do think in the long run you could get a good HT without years of practice and experimenting by using good data, proper heating and a reliable quenchant. I am done with this thread lol. I LOVE ALL MY FORUMITES, just dont get the wrong idea :p
 
Alden, I plead guilty. I use commercial oil, and do not have enough confidence in grocery store quenchants, or in discount auto lubes, or bacon drippings, to sell knives quenched in them to my customers. There was a time, but we live and learn, if we are to advance. I would rather put my faith in oils formulated to do the job best, than in those formulated for cooking, or as laxatives, which this entire thread might could use.
 
I'm going to preface my comment by saying I have no pony in this race. I could care less how you quench your blades, and I no longer enjoy getting involved in these discussions about HT.

That said, a couple years ago I wrote up a little explanation about mineral oils versus quench oils. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453904
It's on the technical side of things, so I'll warn everyone ahead of time that it may not be the easiest to understand. That said, someone who didn't read it before may find some useful info in there. After a couple pages it devolves into trivia, with little more content of value.

The gist of it is that you can't just say "mineral oil", because that's a generic term. It is what makes comparisons to commercial quenchants so difficult, because there are so many "flavors" of it.

An important point is: if you choose to use mineral oil (your business entirely), an important criterion will be repeat availablity of the specific brand, because once you get your HT conditions worked out you won't want to have to start over every time you have to replace it because the oil formulation has changed. That quality control to a manufacturer's specs is possibly the biggest advantage of commercial quenchants.

I wish everyone good success with their chosen methods.
 
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SShepard, I don't know. But I love a free hat, so if the color is right maybe I will sign up. Fitzo thanks for the link and the link in the link. If you don't mind I may barrow from your philosophy on heat treat threads, sounds like it is good for the blood pressure. Dang it, didn't I say I was done.
 
I will say that my O1 blades, heated by torch in a one brick forge, and queched in olive oil tended to warp and were a little (~2 points) softer than the manufacturers specs said they'd be. Also, the surface needed a lot of clean up and some pitting came out that I had to completely grind back out. However, the olive oil allowed me to accomplish my goals, which were to make a knife from scratch by myself, starting with locally available barstock. Precision ground O1 to 3.5" blade hunting knife with no assitance from anyone other than information. The edge even had that ring to it discussed in another thread here. It was softer than the spec sheet said after quench and after temper, but was vastly better than any previous attempt. First define the goal of the quench, then see what you need to get there. Will home quenchants harden steel? Yes. Will they harden it better or equal to quenching oil? Not in my experience. Did it work just fine for my purposes? Yes. And yes, I realize that lack of real quenching oil was only one reason for the low hardness, and perhaps not the real reason at all, but with so many variables, I cant be sure. I've never had that kind of warpage from the water quenching I've done. Of course, 2 out of 4 just cracked.
 
wow, I have mostly steared clear from this thread, due to my lack of intelligence, and the fact im a hard headed hunky of the worst kind. But man i would bet dollar for dollar the origional poster has either unsubscribed from the thread, or is more confused now. Either way, I am, but thats not hard to do.:confused:

me2, i think your comparing apples and oranges, some here are refering to the fact as "knifemakers" the products they are trying to put on the market should be of superior performance, and superior qualitity, thus they are using what is believed to be the best possible materials to achieve those desired results.

what your talking about is just your average joe hobbiest, wanting to make knives for there buddies at deer camp, and that in my opinion is just fine, your enjoying it, and have created a tool that you should be proud of, reguardless of what you dipped it into. Knives you make for your self, are always just fine, and if not no biggie, throw it out behind the house in the woods and make another. Your not putting your name on them, and staking your reputation in the knife world on them.


How about this phrase "good enough for who it's for"...:eek: hehe, i worked with a bricklayer who told the boss that one day, in reguards to the wall he was building. Needless to say it was his first and last day.....hehehe sorry
 
Jake, thanks for asking the question. I guess the most helpful answer to the question has been given by Dustin. I don't know why it is so hard for some to verbalize without being insulting. As Dustin pointed out there is some variability in mineral oils. Also no company that produces mineral oil has produced data regarding quenching. As for the argument that mineral oil is not designed to be a quenchant, that is a little simplistic, it isn't designed at all. It's just mineral oil. Man has found many uses for it, quenching being one of them.
The question remains: If the desired result of quenching is to achieve maximum martsenite conversion without causing too much stress (cracking) or uneven quenching (assymmetrical warping), can this be done (on knives) with straight mineral oil in the viscosity range of vet grade mineral oil? (Of course used in the same manner as a commercial quenchant, on those steels requiring that type of quench.)
Some answers degenerate into arguments and not helpful answers, and many seem to be saying "if you really care you will use this or that commercial quenchant" without providing any data or even any examples of experiences. To lump users of straight mineral into a class of uncaring louts is wrong and about as subjective as you can get.
One common answer regarding the use of commercial quenchants is the removal of variables from the process. This piece of mind is probably one of the best reasons to use them. And probably the most honest.
We all really are on the same side here. Because a person asks a question shouldn't lump them on one side or other of an argument that obviously existed long before their arrival here.
Fitzo provide a link to a prior thread along the same lines as this. It has a link to a 134 page paper on the testing of mineral oils as quenchants. Thank you. I have not finished reading that paper, but will.
Whatever quenchant you use, please pay attention to the care of it. Even the most expensive quenchant will give you grief if it becomes contaminated, or changes through overheating, evaporation, oxidation or other processes that changes it's composition.
In conclusion, this type of question should not result in an argumentative, devisive discussion, but should instead be answered with straight forward answers backed up with first hand experiences outlined in a helpful objective manner. It is difficult to dig through all of the clutter to find the answers.
I apologize for adding to the toxicity with my prior posts on this thread. I am guilty of dragging my hard feelings into this thread.
Please have fun with your knifemaking, and try to keep an open mind.

Thanks
Alden
 
Alden, Ed, Kevin, and the many others that have participated in this thread for good and bad.
if i had known that this thread would have the affect that it has i would never had posted it. i think it was pointed out that i should have known better. i truly didn't know and for my ignorance i apologize.

but i don't apologize for the question. i think asking what the real difference and what testing has shown between quenchents is a legitimate question, especially considering the tenacity in which every one defends their methods. my only thought was to understand the term "it works just fine". and what exactly that it meant. of course i understood that some folks are going to quench in what ever and claim it the best. but i was hoping for some of the "big dawgs" to actually be able to discuss this. maybe it wasn't fair of me to assume that this had been tested. if so again I apologize.

Alden no apology needed, and i agree that the argument for consistency is the most outstanding argument for commercial quenchents.

Ed, thanks for the emails and encouragement they mean alot my friend.

William Crump, thanks for the phone call and the info and encouragement.

Jason S Carter, the first person who befriended me here on the forum, thanks to you too brotha for all the info and emails!

And finally Kevin Cashen, knives aren't important! people and relationships are. it's unfortunate that this thread has gone the way that it has. but having said that i hope and pray that we end up being able to get to know each other in what ever capacity that is. i will probably email you soon to begin that process and also to ask you questions, if you don't mind that is.

my prayer for this thread is that from the ugliness that it was at times, that we would all grow together more unified as people first and then knife makers. were all trying to accomplish the same things ultimately, i propose that we agree to disagree, and remember to support and encourage each others because again knives are just objects, people count!

i know that many others have participated in this thread, i obviously can not list everyone here so please dont be offended if you weren't mentioned as this is in no way a personal slight.

thank you all

Jake
 
Jake, I haven't posted in this thread untill now. THANKS for asking the question, and I am glad to read all of the answers, questions, disagreements, and so on. It has taught me much about the subjects of quench, personalities, and opinions (ya know what the say about opinions!).

Matt
 
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