What do you say when smiths make claims like this?????

Kentucky

Kentucky

Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,985
I cant count the times this has happened to me..Especially in fields were the buyers don't have as good of an understanding about steels/heat treat etc as knife collectors often do..
Starts out ...
Buyer: Your stuff is forged?
Us: All these tools are yes..
Buyer: That's good, this "big name maker" said that forging compresses the steel putting more carbon into a smaller area making it cut better than a *grinded* out chisel.The more you forge it the better it is they say.
Us: *silently in my head I say uuuugggghhhhh:rolleyes:*...Well friend let me explain this to you....
.
Well as dumbed down and as polite as you can get it and you still end up with either an befuddled customer or an upset one because you just kicked the sacred cow by telling them that this is untrue,etc and trying to explain why..
I understand an uneducated customer not knowing and getting sucked in but I don't understand a producer still trying to use such
claims to sell product..
 
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You might say that x hundred of years ago when the quality of steel was really poor, good blacksmiths were able to make the steel better by..... Today, if a blacksmith starts with a good steel, then it is nigh on impossible to make it better by forging.
 
I had one guy tell me that he forges rusty steel because the rust condenses into carbon... I didn't know how to respond. Just nodded my head.

I try not to talk to him. Hes better off in his own world, wont listen to a thing I say.
 
I don't think guys like that are trying to deceive anyone. They just don't know any better. They just repeat bad information that they heard because they don't have a basic understanding of what goes on in steel. It comes down to the individual's personality I think. If you are interested in the truth and putting out a better product you respond to better information with curiosity and probably thanks for the education. If you are an egotist and close-minded you dig in with resistance and denial. If they don't respond favorably to your generosity of information just move on. You just can't reach some people. I wouldn't buy a knife from them though.
 
Kentucky said:
Well as dumbed down and as polite as you can get it and you still end up with either an befuddled customer or an upset one because you just kicked the sacred cow by telling them that this is untrue,etc and trying to explain why..
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When you beat the steel with a hammer it lets in more gravity and the carbon points north. This carbon alignment refines the cutting edge, just like a magnet does with iron. That's why you heat it to nonmagnetic before the quench, to lock in the edge toughness. Forging under an Aurora Borealis intensifies the magnetic field, thus the old saying, "Keen as an Inuit's ulu."
 
i4Marc said:
I don't think guys like that are trying to deceive anyone. They just don't know any better. They just repeat bad information that they heard because they don't have a basic understanding of what goes on in steel.
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I wish I could believe that.

I'm afraid all too often some get locked into their own cult of personality, or worse yet, buy into their own line of bullshit.

Remember kids - doing something wrong for fifty years doesn't somehow make it right, or make you any smarter!!
 
Forging really shines in machine components under load that would otherwise fail as a machined part. Imagine the "grain" of the steel compressing and moving when forged around a die. Now imaging the "grains" when you machine that same part. The grain just gets machined away. When the stress moves through the part from the point load to "ground" it gets concentrated at the parts where the grain was machined away causing a stress riser. In forged parts the stress lines can flow easier to ground enabling the forged part to carry more load as the stress is not as high.
 
629hugo said:
Forging really shines in machine components under load that would otherwise fail as a machined part. Imagine the "grain" of the steel compressing and moving when forged around a die. Now imaging the "grains" when you machine that same part. The grain just gets machined away. When the stress moves through the part from the point load to "ground" it gets concentrated at the parts where the grain was machined away causing a stress riser. In forged parts the stress lines can flow easier to ground enabling the forged part to carry more load as the stress is not as high.
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And one single heat heat treat will negate all of this.
Once forging is done and the steel gets normalized, grain orientation is re-set.
 
I like to explain that most blade steel is "pre-forged" by the steel manufacturers using machines thousands of times more efficient than a hammer and an anvil. Forging, however, is useful to get the most out of an expensive billet of damascus. Whereas I can grind off and make 1 knife, I can probably forge and get 2 out of the same.
 
This reminds me of the old saying - "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."

I am fortunate for the real world experience that I have with this craft. It's taken me some long years, some money, and some balls to get here. I don't have all the answers, and I'm always learning. I tend to seek out and listen to the best in this field. I avoid the kid on youtube making "knifes" with his dad's blowtorch, or the old guy sticking his blades in cornbread under the full moon or some weird shit. The disinformation is frustrating.
 
Me too, just don't want any pocketknife blades sticking on the roof of my mouth.....lol.

(Jiffy cornbread is the best btw....lol)
 
samuraistuart said:
And one single heat heat treat will negate all of this.
Once forging is done and the steel gets normalized, grain orientation is re-set.
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Kind of..... The grain structure cannot exist where metal was machined out. It will not "straighten" out to its original, hot or cold rolled from the mill, grain structure before forging after normalizing. The grain will still conform to forged depressions.
 
Of course grains cannot exhibit orientation where they don't exist!?!?!?!? It matters not how the steel is machined or forged. Once critical temperature has been reached (actually the curie temp), all grain orientation is completely re set. again........completely re set.

Hey Josh....I have a question. What about the OLDER men and THEIR blowtorch?????? Does the fact that they are "OLDER men" change metallurgy??? Sorry, couldn't help myself.
 
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My understanding is that GRAIN has no orientation. Carbide stringers from casting may, but not ausgrain. The carbide thing is why you don't have to worry about making sure you cut a piece of CPM steel or even regular steel that has been carefully rolled in all directions along the long axis of a sheet of you want to make a knife or so I have been told. Now on a related topic, do you know how hard it is these days to find enough virgins to give blood? :D
 
OK I wont call it grain as in the crystalline structure of the steel. That's why I put "grain" in quotes in the first post. I was talking about the force and stress lines in the steel, which when drawn in CAE look like wood grain, GRAIN. And it is dependent on the method of manufacture. Of course you probably already know that from your google metallurgy degree. My original post was stating why forgings were stronger than same design machined part.
 
629hugo said:
OK I wont call it grain as in the crystalline structure of the steel. That's why I put "grain" in quotes in the first post. I was talking about the force and stress lines in the steel, which when drawn in CAE look like wood grain, GRAIN. And it is dependent on the method of manufacture. Of course you probably already know that from your google metallurgy degree. My original post was stating why forgings were stronger than same design machined part.
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I don't have a GMD, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. As for forging being stronger, that only applies in the previously stated circumstances. Most of us who do forge blades do it because it is fun or because we make our own damascus, not because it imparts any magical properties.
 
Jdm I actually thought that other dork had the GMD. He was trying to prove me wrong an we were talking about two different things. And I would agree the strength of a forged blade vs stock removal may not be that much different. I was actually talking about engineered parts like conn rods an crank shafts and other machine components. Im not saying a forgedblade will be better just cause it's forged.
 
It'd be appreciated if you could tone the name-calling down. You're posting on a knifemaking forum, and referring to conn rods and crankshafts...

Yes, this is an open forum, but it's still kind of a community. There's no reason or justification for personal attacks.

Also, as we don't know who you are, perhaps and introduction would be in order, and maybe you could explain your metallurgical background so we can lend credibility where it's due!:)




629hugo said:
Jdm I actually thought that other dork had the GMD. He was trying to prove me wrong an we were talking about two different things. And I would agree the strength of a forged blade vs stock removal may not be that much different. I was actually talking about engineered parts like conn rods an crank shafts and other machine components. Im not saying a forgedblade will be better just cause it's forged.
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Matthew Gregory said:
It'd be appreciated if you could tone the name-calling down. You're posting on a knifemaking forum, and referring to conn rods and crankshafts...

Yes, this is an open forum, but it's still kind of a community. There's no reason or justification for personal attacks.

Also, as we don't know who you are, perhaps and introduction would be in order, and maybe you could explain your metallurgical background so we can lend credibility where it's due!:)
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OK didnt mean to sidetrack this thread...I am an engineer and used to work in Detroit designing and analyzing components for powertrain as well as machine tools. Forgings, cast, machined, and plastic injection molded parts are what I design. When the OP was discussing forged blades (I assume blades) and why some people might think automatically that they are better, my mind went to the analysis of a forged part. Since I admittedly dont have much knife making experience (only about 3 years) I had to revert to something I know....engineered parts like conn rods blah blah blah. So no I dont claim to be the worlds foremost authority on anything I do like to apply my knowledge of part design to my hobby of knife making. Also I didnt really appreciate Samurai twisting my meaning of "grain" just to make it look like BLAM I GOTCHA SUCKA. Ok done.
 
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