What do you think of the "Generic" bushcraft knife?

[Bronze Age Man]

For interior canoe trips I take a 6" D2 camp knife, a Benchmade bushcraft and a Mora laminated 4" blade as a neck knife. The neck knife gets the most use around camp and for food prep. The 6" slices the bacon slab far better. I don't baton much as I also carry a very sharp Swedish woodsman's axe and a buck saw. So it seems that because I have the right tool for the job the bushcraft knife is hardly used. If that was the only knife I had it would manage just fine at most tasks but as a last line of bear defence the 6" D2 is the minimum I am comfortable with. I few years back I saw a 780lb black bear (it got weighed!) and so I decided to carry more than my neck knife! The bushcraft is more racoon sized. You never see a racoon outside the family camping areas as the bears just eat them!

 

[Tachead7075]

I think bushcrafting is a lot like making pottery, blacksmithing, baking bread or making furniture. It is the practice of doing more with less and using time proven techniques, by choice, instead of modern store bought convenience. Camping stoves are damn light now days, but they aren't a skill to acquire - just another consumer item.


Scandi grinds make thin blades tough, IMO.

I agree. Bushcrafting is just a hobby that happens to be trendy right now. As for camping stoves, modern multi-fuel stoves actually do take quite a bit of skill to use and maintain as apposed to propane or butane blend stoves. So, I think it more depends on the kind of stove. Cooking on an open fire doesnt really take much skill or take long to master either really. For a tradesman or anyone who is good with their hands really, most bushcrafting tasks are pretty simple/elementary and dont take long to perfect either. They are good skills to learn in case of emergencies but, with proper planing, preparedness, and safety one will likely never need to use them like Alfazulu pointed out. Unless you want to put your self in a "forced survival" situation as he also pointed out. Bushcrafting is a fad imo and people should really minimize how much they practice certain aspects of it because going out and constantly building shelters, for instance, leaves a fairly large footprint and is hard on the forest especially if you dont use deadfall and cleanup after your finished. That's something to think about as well imo. It is good to have another reason to get people out in the wilderness though as pointed out.

 

[RX-79G]

You can certainly acquire the skills to build a shelter, set a trap or build a fire in bad weather without building 100 shelters and another 100 bonfires as practice. I really don't know how many shelters an adult could build without finding the whole thing tedious. I practice the carving, wood processing, lighting the fire part of it without actually using much wood or disturbing the forest at all. Kind of like practicing a fire drill without needing to set the building on fire.

 

[Tachead7075]

You can certainly acquire the skills to build a shelter, set a trap or build a fire in bad weather without building 100 shelters and another 100 bonfires as practice. I really don't know how many shelters an adult could build without finding the whole thing tedious. I practice the carving, wood processing, lighting the fire part of it without actually using much wood or disturbing the forest at all. Kind of like practicing a fire drill without needing to set the building on fire.

I agree, that's why I said "certain aspects". I was more speaking about people that build a new primitive shelter every time they go out in the forest instead of just using a tarp, tent, or sleeping under the stars. I focus on the same things. I plan to really hone my skills of starting a fire without a ferro rod or any modern device this year. I would like to even be able to do it easily without any modern cordage(although it would be almost impossible to be lost in the forest without cordage due to shoe laces and paracord bracelets) just for the challenge.

 

[LukeTheSpook]

Great thread. I started my outdoors life as a backpacker. After 20 or so backpacking trips i had all the cool modern gear and I could move miles, stay warm dry with a full belly. I carried, at most, a little SaK and rarely used it. Then I discovered blade forums.

Before BF I didn't even know I needed a bushcrafting knife!

But just like the cool modern gear was fun, so is a minimalist trip. Instead of an ultra light tent, bag, stove, dehydrated food and all that cool stuff, i started enjoying being a tarp and using basic tools for the rest.

Both are fun (and really different) experiences.

Right now I have to say I love the bushcrafting knives. I have a BHK bushcrafter and I have big Chris customs in kephart style and puukko. I also have a French trade style (BHK highlander). They are all great.

Now I still hardly ever use a knife for fire prep but I still think it's fun to process wood with a camp knife!

At the end of the day the bushcrafting knives are great tools and they get people interested in being outdoors. The whole survivor / bushcrafting fad is a good thing. If buying a certain tool helps you learn fire prep or shelter building or even cooking them so be it.

In conclusion, LONG LIVE THE TRADITIONAL KNIFE PATTERNS AS WELL AS THE BUSHRAFTING FAD PATTERNS.

but don't forget to play with axes and saws as well!!!

 

[The cow]

It was made popular by Ray Mears and they're more or less a full-tang puukko. People tend to emulate the big names and with the explosion of bushcraft in the past couple years, it has gotten more popular.
I have a Woodlore clone. They make fantastic belt knives and does most everything I ask of one quite well. I've used it for everything from light batoning to carving to hunting a couple times. They're mediocre hunting/skinning knives but they get the job done. But, for whatever reason, "bushcraft" knives are the only ones that seem to put an emphasis on a comfortable handle. I can use a "bushcraft" knife for an hour and feel fine while many popular "survival" knives are rife with hotspots and make my hand feel sore after 10-20 minutes.
Batoning has been around for a while, but has gotten very popular. Some of the wood people baton through send shivers up my spine. Many will baton through the densist hardwood and knottiest hardwood they can find and act surprised their knife fails. It explains why blades have gotten so thick. Recently, you've been seeing a thin blade revolution as people baton less and/or get smarter with what they baton. The batoning I do with mine splits kindling after I feel it is unsafe to continue with my chopper/ax.


Recently, I've been considering trying out a "survival" bandoleer. Part of that involves finding a puukko to cut down on weight. I originally had a Marttiini Witch's Tooth but the handle was too short for my troll hands.

 

[pinnah]

I see the interest in Bushcraft knives as something of a market correction.

Please notice the grind on the top 2 knives pictured here:
fixed blades by Pinnah, on Flickr

The top knife was sold in the US in the 50s. Not branded. Possibly made in Japan post war. Notice the thin blade stock (by today's standards) and the low, convexed sabre grind.

The middle knife is an old Schrade-Walden that produced in the 60s and early 70s. Again, notice the thin blade stock and convexed sabre grind.

I think something very bad happened in the 60s and 70s. Well, a couple of bad things happened. There was that whole Jim Morrison/Doors thing and Jefferson this and that which was just horrific music. But in the knife world, the US market fell in love with the HOLLOW GRIND. Was the popularity of Buck knives? Did Loveless help popularize it? Was it a result of automated grind machinery that made making hollow grinds cost effective?

Whatever the reason, knives like the top knives pictured were common-place into the 60s and pretty much entirely gone in the US market by the end of the 70s. From that period till internet shopping changed everything, if you wanted a fixed blade knife in the US that meant you were going to get a hollow grind. I'll bet the Buck 119 was the top selling fixed blade in the US for many years prior to internet sales. Just a guess.

Flat ground survival/tacticool fixed bladed have had a good long run. But they don't split wood like scandi/convex bushcrafters or like the older convex sabre grinds.

It would be interesting to hit the rewind button and redo history in a scenario in which the deep hollow grind didn't dominate the US market and in which convexed sabre grinds remained popular. Would today's slab handled Bushcraft knife have emerged? And if it did, would we see it as a variation of well accepted designs or as a fad?

 

[Gaston444]

You often say that carbon steel is no good, but I have never seen you say why - aside from rust. Most metal heads understand that stainless steels trade toughness for corrosion resistance. What is it you've been reading that informs you that carbon steels aren't tougher than stainless, or that toughness isn't of value in knives that will see impact.

Well for one thing I value more edge-holding than outright toughness, so at least the superiority of stainless on that front should be uncontested.

As far as toughness itself goes (excepting the low-end SOG and other Chinese made stainless that is not tempered), all I can see is that among all identical designs made in both stainless and carbon, particularly Cold Steel etc, the broken Carbon blades vastly outnumber the broken stainless blades.

For instance, even though the Trailmaster has been available in unlaminated Aus-8 stainless by the thousands twenty years ago, I have never heard of such an unlaminated stainless Trailmaster break, while stories of broken Carbon trailmasters are, if not common, at least very easy to find (not to mention the same for the similar Recon Scout): This is quite astonishing for knives of 5/16" stock...

It goes without saying that the laminated VG-1 core Trailmasters have no recorded failure... (And the edge holding of the Trailmaster's VG-1 is excellent in my experience, even if the convex geometry sucked)

From what I have seen of the toughness of the 440B on Randalls, there really isn't much more than can be expected of knife steel on that front...

S30V, when used in a big chopper made and heat treated correctly by RJ Martin, is simply a complete failure compared to Randall's 440B: Not just "not as good", but a failure to the point of making the knife unsuitable for its intended purpose: The edge does a micro-wire edge within less than ten chop, something a Randall Model 12 I have will not do in a thousand... This despite a much thicker, "stronger" edge geometry on the S30V: 35 inclusive on 0.040", versus 20 inclusive on 0.020"...

OK so maybe the S30V is a little "tougher" than the 440B from a fracture perspective: To me a wire edge in 10 chops on Maple, vs none in a thousand with 440B, when the thousand chops are done from a much sharper thinner edge, is a pretty drastic failure... To be fair, I have seen so called 440C from a custom ACK knife do even far worse than wire edges on Maple: Actually curling up the edge 180 degrees on Maple(!), but from equally good makers, S30V simply doesn't measure up, yet it is widely recognized as better...

In fact this S30V failure is so bad, on a 2k knife no less, that for me it places in a bad light all the crucible steels: Maybe it is just the impact of chopping that reveals this, when more gradual wear on folders doesn't show it, but attempts to make steels better can easily make them far worse... Even 3V I know, from a very serious 1999 test with purpose-built test mules, was vastly inferior in edge holding on manila rope to 440C (as was INFI, ATS34 and a slew of others), only D-2 being anywhere close, which has been exactly my experience since... And let's not forget the Randall Model 14 in 440B that humiliated an INFI Busse Sasquatch in wear resistance while chopping cinder blocks...

I think what is happening here is a problem of perception: S30V, 3V, Carbon steels, all -apparently- take more deformation before fracturing than 440 does. The trouble is, 440 would have resisted those same forces without deforming or fracturing, so the fact it can take less deformation is not at all a sign of its weakness: On the contrary, it is still the absolute top stainless for shape-stability on ball bearings, the benchmark by which all other steels are judged for shape stability...: So if you do bend it, it does look more brittle, but what is overlooked is it takes more effort to bend it when it is real thin, compared to other steels at similar very low thicknesses...

Few people do edge deformation tests where they measure the actual forces applied to the edge. All they can do to measure the force is note how much deformation resulted to the edge, so if the steel bends more, they think "Hey that is a lot tougher"...


Gaston

 

[DeadboxHero]

Well for one thing I value more edge-holding than outright toughness, so at least the superiority of stainless on that front should be uncontested.

As far as toughness itself goes (excepting the low-end SOG and other Chinese made stainless that is not tempered), all I can see is that among all identical designs made in both stainless and carbon, particularly Cold Steel etc, the broken Carbon blades vastly outnumber the broken stainless blades.

For instance, even though the Trailmaster has been available in unlaminated Aus-8 stainless by the thousands twenty years ago, I have never heard of such an unlaminated stainless Trailmaster break, while stories of broken Carbon trailmasters are, if not common, at least very easy to find (not to mention the same for the similar Recon Scout): This is quite astonishing for knives of 5/16" stock...

It goes without saying that the laminated VG-1 core Trailmasters have no recorded failure... (And the edge holding of the Trailmaster's VG-1 is excellent in my experience, even if the convex geometry sucked)

From what I have seen of the toughness of the 440B on Randalls, there really isn't much more than can be expected of knife steel on that front...

S30V, when used in a big chopper made and heat treated correctly by RJ Martin, is simply a complete failure compared to Randall's 440B: Not just "not as good", but a failure to the point of making the knife unsuitable for its intended purpose: The edge does a micro-wire edge within less than ten chop, something a Randall Model 12 I have will not do in a thousand... This despite a much thicker, "stronger" edge geometry on the S30V: 35 inclusive on 0.040", versus 20 inclusive on 0.020"...

OK so maybe the S30V is a little "tougher" than the 440B from a fracture perspective: To me a wire edge in 10 chops on Maple, vs none in a thousand with 440B, when the thousand chops are done from a much sharper thinner edge, is a pretty drastic failure... To be fair, I have seen so called 440C from a custom ACK knife do even far worse than wire edges on Maple: Actually curling up the edge 180 degrees on Maple(!), but from equally good makers, S30V simply doesn't measure up, yet it is widely recognized as better...

In fact this S30V failure is so bad, on a 2k knife no less, that for me it places in a bad light all the crucible steels: Maybe it is just the impact of chopping that reveals this, when more gradual wear on folders doesn't show it, but attempts to make steels better can easily make them far worse... Even 3V I know, from a very serious 1999 test with purpose-built test mules, was vastly inferior in edge holding on manila rope to 440C (as was INFI, ATS34 and a slew of others), only D-2 being anywhere close, which has been exactly my experience since... And let's not forget the Randall Model 14 in 440B that humiliated an INFI Busse Sasquatch in wear resistance while chopping cinder blocks...

I think what is happening here is a problem of perception: S30V, 3V, Carbon steels, all -apparently- take more deformation before fracturing than 440 does. The trouble is, 440 would have resisted those same forces without deforming or fracturing, so the fact it can take less deformation is not at all a sign of its weakness: On the contrary, it is still the absolute top stainless for shape-stability on ball bearings, the benchmark by which all other steels are judged for shape stability...: So if you do bend it, it does look more brittle, but what is overlooked is it takes more effort to bend it when it is real thin, compared to other steels at similar very low thicknesses...

Few people do edge deformation tests where they measure the actual forces applied to the edge. All they can do to measure the force is note how much deformation resulted to the edge, so if the steel bends more, they think "Hey that is a lot tougher"...


Gaston

Hollow ground 440b steel Bowie knives are hardly the pinnacle of chopping

I think your out of touch with what's out there my man.

But who am I to say your wrong?

Enjoy

 

[Vicarious Reality]

bleh.

 

[RX-79G]

I see the interest in Bushcraft knives as something of a market correction.

Please notice the grind on the top 2 knives pictured here:
fixed blades by Pinnah, on Flickr

The top knife was sold in the US in the 50s. Not branded. Possibly made in Japan post war. Notice the thin blade stock (by today's standards) and the low, convexed sabre grind.

The middle knife is an old Schrade-Walden that produced in the 60s and early 70s. Again, notice the thin blade stock and convexed sabre grind.

I think something very bad happened in the 60s and 70s. Well, a couple of bad things happened. There was that whole Jim Morrison/Doors thing and Jefferson this and that which was just horrific music. But in the knife world, the US market fell in love with the HOLLOW GRIND. Was the popularity of Buck knives? Did Loveless help popularize it? Was it a result of automated grind machinery that made making hollow grinds cost effective?

Whatever the reason, knives like the top knives pictured were common-place into the 60s and pretty much entirely gone in the US market by the end of the 70s. From that period till internet shopping changed everything, if you wanted a fixed blade knife in the US that meant you were going to get a hollow grind. I'll bet the Buck 119 was the top selling fixed blade in the US for many years prior to internet sales. Just a guess.

Flat ground survival/tacticool fixed bladed have had a good long run. But they don't split wood like scandi/convex bushcrafters or like the older convex sabre grinds.

It would be interesting to hit the rewind button and redo history in a scenario in which the deep hollow grind didn't dominate the US market and in which convexed sabre grinds remained popular. Would today's slab handled Bushcraft knife have emerged? And if it did, would we see it as a variation of well accepted designs or as a fad?

I completely agree with this. "Bushcraft" knives are a return to the simple knives everyone used to use, and away from fad combat knives and blades optimized for hunting, like the Bucks.

 

[stabman]

Like I said, if you're getting outdoors, you have my respect. I guess I just don't meet many people that actually do go out and use bushcrafting skills. But I can see how it would be fun. I could literally walk a mile into the woods, sit on a rock for 4 hours and be happy. I just love being outside. I'll have to try it some time, and maybe even incorporate some bushcrafting classes into our Outdoor Program. It sounds like there's interest and demand for it. If you like being outside, you should also try some backpacking. Canada has some of the most amazing natural areas on the planet.

To me, the best thing about the current wave of survivalism and bushcrafting is that it's encouraging people to get back outdoors. It's so sad to see our culture moving further and further away from the outdoors, so anything that can get people back outside is great with me. If playing with knives encourages anyone to get outside, that is pure win in my book.

It was knives that got me going outside, pretty much.

I always thought the outdoors was pretty neat, but didn't bother going out there much after teenage summer camps.
For years, I was stuck in the city, with it's limited natural resources.

But with knives, I make the effort and get out there! :thumbup:

 

[stabman]

I really don't know how many shelters an adult could build without finding the whole thing tedious.

Plenty.
Of course, I also lift weights over and over without finding it too tedious.

I never get bored of using knives. :thumbup:

 

[RX-79G]

Well for one thing I value more edge-holding than outright toughness, so at least the superiority of stainless on that front should be uncontested.

As far as toughness itself goes (excepting the low-end SOG and other Chinese made stainless that is not tempered), all I can see is that among all identical designs made in both stainless and carbon, particularly Cold Steel etc, the broken Carbon blades vastly outnumber the broken stainless blades.

For instance, even though the Trailmaster has been available in unlaminated Aus-8 stainless by the thousands twenty years ago, I have never heard of such an unlaminated stainless Trailmaster break, while stories of broken Carbon trailmasters are, if not common, at least very easy to find (not to mention the same for the similar Recon Scout): This is quite astonishing for knives of 5/16" stock...

It goes without saying that the laminated VG-1 core Trailmasters have no recorded failure... (And the edge holding of the Trailmaster's VG-1 is excellent in my experience, even if the convex geometry sucked)

From what I have seen of the toughness of the 440B on Randalls, there really isn't much more than can be expected of knife steel on that front...

S30V, when used in a big chopper made and heat treated correctly by RJ Martin, is simply a complete failure compared to Randall's 440B: Not just "not as good", but a failure to the point of making the knife unsuitable for its intended purpose: The edge does a micro-wire edge within less than ten chop, something a Randall Model 12 I have will not do in a thousand... This despite a much thicker, "stronger" edge geometry on the S30V: 35 inclusive on 0.040", versus 20 inclusive on 0.020"...

OK so maybe the S30V is a little "tougher" than the 440B from a fracture perspective: To me a wire edge in 10 chops on Maple, vs none in a thousand with 440B, when the thousand chops are done from a much sharper thinner edge, is a pretty drastic failure... To be fair, I have seen so called 440C from a custom ACK knife do even far worse than wire edges on Maple: Actually curling up the edge 180 degrees on Maple(!), but from equally good makers, S30V simply doesn't measure up, yet it is widely recognized as better...

In fact this S30V failure is so bad, on a 2k knife no less, that for me it places in a bad light all the crucible steels: Maybe it is just the impact of chopping that reveals this, when more gradual wear on folders doesn't show it, but attempts to make steels better can easily make them far worse... Even 3V I know, from a very serious 1999 test with purpose-built test mules, was vastly inferior in edge holding on manila rope to 440C (as was INFI, ATS34 and a slew of others), only D-2 being anywhere close, which has been exactly my experience since... And let's not forget the Randall Model 14 in 440B that humiliated an INFI Busse Sasquatch in wear resistance while chopping cinder blocks...

I think what is happening here is a problem of perception: S30V, 3V, Carbon steels, all -apparently- take more deformation before fracturing than 440 does. The trouble is, 440 would have resisted those same forces without deforming or fracturing, so the fact it can take less deformation is not at all a sign of its weakness: On the contrary, it is still the absolute top stainless for shape-stability on ball bearings, the benchmark by which all other steels are judged for shape stability...: So if you do bend it, it does look more brittle, but what is overlooked is it takes more effort to bend it when it is real thin, compared to other steels at similar very low thicknesses...

Few people do edge deformation tests where they measure the actual forces applied to the edge. All they can do to measure the force is note how much deformation resulted to the edge, so if the steel bends more, they think "Hey that is a lot tougher"...


Gaston

"Toughness" comes from the alloy, the hardness, and the quality of heat treat. If you want edge holding plus some pretty high toughness at a reasonable hardness, M4 wins cutting contests. Carbon steel. If you want more toughness and still high edge holding, 4V and 3V have much to offer. Carbon steel. If you want indestructible, S5 and S7 are amazing. Carbon steel. Crucible provides plenty of charts that their engineers have made putting their excellent selection of carbon and SS up against each other for both toughness and edge holding.

You can make some stainless steels much tougher by running them relatively soft, but you lose the edge holding properties.

You can also take a fantastic steel, like A2, and HT to 58 Hrc and essentially destroy the toughness inherent in the alloy because you tempered it at 450° F and caused Tempered Marstenite Embrittlement. I'm starting to believe that this is actually so common in the knife industry that an awful lot of carbon steel knives are essentially brittle.

Beyond getting the HT right, Cold Steel used to advertise CarbonV as indestructible. When Camillus closed and the CarbonV dried up, that advertising changed. When you see broken carbon CS blades, is that because of the length of time CV was advertised, or because AUS8 is actually tougher? I would say it is the first.


As far as VG1 core steels, this isn't "stainless knife steel", this is a composite of high carbon VG1 and low carbon, soft structural steel. It should be better - it is a very costly, lower strength way of making a blade. The side steel encourages bending, not fractures, and it will bend with much less force than a fully hardened steel.


If you want to compare apples to apples, you have to start with steels being HT'd to the proper range for that steel. Consumer products aren't always the best place to judge this. But I would put an A2 blade tempered to 60 Hrc up against most any stainless you've tried for both wear resistance and toughness. 58 Hrc, not so much.

 

[stabman]

It was fun carrying those cinderblocks out there over time due to the lack of rocks in that location.

And of course...Toad!!!

 

[Tachead7075]

Plenty.
Of course, I also lift weights over and over without finding it too tedious.

I never get bored of using knives. :thumbup:

I say this again..."people should really minimize how much they practice certain aspects of bushcrafting because going out and constantly building shelters, for instance, leaves a fairly large footprint and is hard on the forest especially if you dont use deadfall and cleanup after your finished. That's something to think about as well"

 

[stabman]

I say this again..."people should really minimize how much they practice certain aspects of bushcrafting because going out and constantly building shelters, for instance, leaves a fairly large footprint and is hard on the forest especially if you dont use deadfall and cleanup after your finished. That's something to think about as well"

And I'll say again something I've said elsewhere:
I don't care.

No car.
No kids.
I impact the planet WAY less than all the breeders driving their cars around.
So yeah, I ain't ganna stop.

 

[Tachead7075]

And I'll say again something I've said elsewhere:
I don't care.

No car.
No kids.
I impact the planet WAY less than all the breeders driving their cars around.
So yeah, I ain't ganna stop.

That's no attitude to have man. If thousands of people started going out and "not caring" making shelters when they dont need to with healthy vegetation instead of deadfall and not cleaning up afterwards the forest would no longer be natural and would look like a wasteland or garbage dump. Think about the future man and leave it like you found it so other people and future generations can enjoy the beauty of the natural environment too. There is a reason why it is against the law to cut anything but deadfall in most provincial and state parks and wildlife reserves. At least clean up after yourself and try to use deadfall or reuse poles whenever possible. If you like the forest and the modern fad of bushcraft and want to enjoy it in the future as well as have others enjoy it too you really should start thinking about caring man. If enough people dont care and start causing a big enough problem new laws might even be created to stop you and others from enjoying your new hobby. That would suck.

 

[stabman]

Think about the future

In the far future, all humans will be dead...and the world will be all pretty and stuff. :thumbup:
Think long-term.

 

[Tachead7075]

I dont know if you know this or not but, if you cut the bark in a circle down to the wood around a tree like you appear to have done in this pic, the tree will die because its phloem and xylem(water and sap) can no longer flow. Putting a piece of cloth, birch bark, exc. or being more careful when tying can stop this from happening and save the tree for further use. No point in killing a large mature tree just to make your shelter.