What happens if you were to ever use an illegal blade for self defense in the US?

[painkilleraz]

If you actually end up having to kill someone in self defense with a knife, I would suggest you'll have some much larger concerns than the length of the knife you used, or any such "practical" issues. But if you want to stick to the practical, legal, pragmatic... though the books are a bit more gun-specific, I'd suggest a read of one or both of Masaad Ayoob's books on the subject, "In the Gravest Extreme," and "Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense."

A fellow institute grad

 

[Ardrinaheireann]

In Chicago, legal blade lenght is 2" if under 18 and 2.5" over 18

There are quite a few knives 2.5" and under that can be adequately employed for self defence. In jurisdictions with 2.5" limits I have carried karambits with blades under 2.5", A hawg hawkbill at 2.25", a CAS Iberia Citizen 3 position knife with a one armed bandit thumb stud, and a few other knives I have that would fit the bill. I try to know the laws of the jurisdiction and carry accordingly. That said, you do have to be aware also in some jurisdictions what is viewed as a dangerous weapon, thus a karambit may seem dangerous or in California, the Citizen would be judged a push knife. Some places you can wear a belt buckle knife like a Bowen and in others it is illegal to do so. Knowledge of the law often isn't enough, how may be interpreted in a particular jurisdiction is important. But, consider, once a knife is brandished or actually used, it often becomes a dangerous weapon in the eyes of many in LE.

I almost always carry a tactical pen, one that does't look like an ice pick or look designed to use as a penetrating stabbing weapon, Such as a Schrade, LCP lightfoot, Hinderer extreme duty, etc.; these can be as quick and devistating as a knife but have a casual appearance.

Many knives I select to carry have a couple of characteristics, one is potential for retention, thus a karambit or the Citizen, and the other a potential to use when folded as a kubotan like a Microtech Kestral.

I believe in options to meet threats be the appropriate level of force avoiding escalating to deadly force if not needed.

So much for some of my carry options. As for the best strategy for self defence; not put yourself in a situation that calls for it. I grew up in a country and place where knife fights were frequent and have the scars that go along with that and it taught me, the best knife fight is the one that never happens. I also found that brandishing a weapon hoping to scare someone often is the trigger for escalation. In this country you had best be protecting yourself or someone else from great bodily harm or immediate death, unconcerned about the follow on ramifications because once you use a weapon and harm another, even in what might seem a justifiable situation, you will likely end up with consequences that will be life changing...and not in a good way.

Aside from the Books mentioned by SharpJax, the following link is worth reading.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifedueling.htm

 

[Shredster]

Illegal knives and self defense arguments aside, knife laws differentiating between switch blades, folding knives and out-the-front (OTF) vs fixed blade open carry knives are truly ridiculous. Criminals intending harm can use any of the listed knives to evoke harm and death just as easily when the blade is exposed for use. The knife type and how it opens has no real bearing on this fact. Collectors and self defense users should be able to legally carry all and if misused or not used correctly in "self defense" then pay the consequences. Knife type and blade opening method should not matter, regardless of the knife! The knife laws need to be revamped federally or especially in the states, like California where there are such restrictions on knife types.

 

[sgt1372]

The use of the knife in SD and the "legality" of the knife used are separate legal issues.

Like a gun, you can only use a knife for self-defense (or the defense of others) if you have a reasonable belief that you (or others) are at risk of death or serious bodily injury at the hands of another. Doesn't matter if the knife was illegally possessed to establish its use for self-defense.

The DA can choose to prosecute or not on the SD and/or the legality issue.

The legality issue is a "strict liability" cause of action based on the physical characteristics of the knife; whether manual or auto, gravity or nom-gravity (where applicable) and the blade length.

The possibility exists that the DA would "NP" (not prosecute) on the legality issue if the right to use the knife for SD is established without ever reaching a judge and/or jury. However, the knife would be seized and you'd never get it back regardless of whether the DA chooses to prosecute on the legality issue or not.

However, if your right to self-defense is not clearly established and the DA decides to prosecute on an attempted murder or other charge related to its use because its use for SD is not clearly established to the DA's satisfaction by the facts of the case, you can be sure that s/he will also charge on the legality issue, which is usually an "add-on" charge related to another criminal action (like burglary, robbery, etc.).

 

[Demon613]

Ancient thread has been resurrected with necromancy.

 

[madcap_magician]

Nonetheless, state law reigns.

We have statute for example such that if you are deemed to be in justifiable self defense of yourself or another, you are immune from any violations within the entire weapons section code.

- OS

That's a good thing, but remember that the calculus is not just "Can I be prosecuted for carrying an illegal knife if I have to kill someone in self defense?"

The OP's decision should also factor into consideration "Can I be prosecuted for carrying an illegal knife if my possession is discovered in literally any other way other than the aftermath of a self-defense investigation?" as well as "... which of those situations is more likely?"

The odds of being caught with an illegal knife are probably very low, but I am certain they are higher than the odds of having to use one in self defense combined with the additional odds of being successful in doing so. And it becomes basically laughable if you allow that in even in a successful case of self defense with a knife, the odds would seem very low that the type of knife mattered, i.e. having any of a variety of legal knives would have served just as well for self defense with zero legal risk for illegal carry.

In some jurisdictions carrying an illegal weapon shows evidence on its face of intent of the person to commit other crimes. It's the fruit of the poisonous doctrine - if you start out by planting a poisonous seed when the tree bears fruit it too will be poisonous, i.e. your honor my client would not have been injured, but for, the fact that the defendant was carrying an illegal weapon, clearly showing his intention to do bad things.

That's not what this means! That's not what any of this means!

With the amount of knives available, surly you could find a knife that would both serve your purpose and be legal?

... but this is.

 

[sgt1372]

Ancient thread has been resurrected with necromancy. View attachment 1054885

Some things are worth repeating.

 

[Bigfattyt]

You would most likely be charged, convicted, and sent to prison.

The prison cell mates will Nick Name you Felony Melony, just to hurt your feelings!! You will cry a lot, and the other inmates will call you Weeping Wilma.


On a more serious note, I really mean that. Dont carry the illegal knife on the off chance you might need to fight off a pack of ninjas.

Sounds like you can carry 3.5 inch blade folders legally. Get a pair of waved folders in that blade length. Any decent locking folder that fits your hand will work. Keep them sharp. Practice with them. As others have posted, training, if available can help.

I'm not giving legal advice. I did not stay in a holiday in Express last night, but I am a defense lawyer. (This post is not intended to create any legal relationship, or provide legal advice of any kind).

I will tell you that I have seen people charged, and convicted with similar situations.

I'm not going to bother looking up the pertinent statutes in what ever jurisdiction you live in.... then try to guess what I think an officer is going to arrest you on, or what the prosecutor will eventually charge you with.

 

[BubbaMorse5]

OUTSTANDING REPLY! I personally always have a knife on me (like Amex, never leave home without it), but I've never once needed it. I'll walk away if needed, if that isn't an option, I rely on my Krav Maga training (Yes, I studied in Haifa and hold Expert status) knowledge and experience.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

Firstly ... I AM NOT A LAWYER ... THIS IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVICE ...

what would happen if you killed someone with an illegal knife? Didn't you answer your own question?

The answer is ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING GOOD AND ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT YOU WANT TO HAPPEN.

 

[Reitwagen]

5. When speaking to an officer, the following is the best approach.
A. Tell responding officers “I’m the victim; he is the perpetrator.”
B. Tell responding officers, “I will sign a complaint.”
C. Point out pertinent evidence.
D. Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.
E. If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say “Officer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here.”
6. And here is the fun one. The common law defense that most lawyers will never bring up but will apply if you use an "illegal" weapon to defend yourself or others who are being threatened with imminent bodily harm or death.

I must adamantly disagree with this advice. My attorney told me to never give a statement to the police. Ask your attorney what to do when questioned by the police and see for yourself, or watch this:

 

[SW-EDC]

Don't use a knife for intended self defense. Short answer.
Handgun or the most potent pepper spray you can find is what I do.

 

[betover]

OK I live in Chicago & have a CCW & carry a legal knife. My observation on using an illegal weapon is the prosecutors seem to pursue weapons charges in the event of deadly force based on how the case stacks up politicly. Before the Heller decision an elderly African American man shot an intruder with a hand gun that he wasn't supposed to have. No charges. A few weeks ago a young woman was attacked at a bus stop, knocked to the ground & pulled her legal CCW & killed the assailant. Everything was Kosher except that she was about to commit a crime in carrying her gun on the bus. No Charges, but the DA might have made her life unpleasant for awhile.
I think what I'm trying to say is that if you are CLEARLY the good guy and using deadly force to prevent your imminent death or injury the law may wink at your illegal weapon. On the other hand they may not, so as a rule, render up to Cesar what is Cesar's. Try to obey the law.

 

[TonySal]

OK I live in Chicago & have a CCW & carry a legal knife. My observation on using an illegal weapon is the prosecutors seem to pursue weapons charges in the event of deadly force based on how the case stacks up politicly. Before the Heller decision an elderly African American man shot an intruder with a hand gun that he wasn't supposed to have. No charges. A few weeks ago a young woman was attacked at a bus stop, knocked to the ground & pulled her legal CCW & killed the assailant. Everything was Kosher except that she was about to commit a crime in carrying her gun on the bus. No Charges, but the DA might have made her life unpleasant for awhile.
I think what I'm trying to say is that if you are CLEARLY the good guy and using deadly force to prevent your imminent death or injury the law may wink at your illegal weapon. On the other hand they may not, so as a rule, render up to Cesar what is Cesar's. Try to obey the law.

As kid I remember hearing of the farmer who shot someone on his property, had a big problem.
And some one shot a home intruder, the court ruled- you executed someone for a property crime? !?!
yea... come into my house unannounced friend... I'm legal and waiting...

 

[Pteronarcyd]

It appears IL's knife laws have been liberalized somewhat since the OP posted:

https://knifeup.com/illinois-knife-law/

 

[HeavyHanded]

So I live in Illinois and as many of you know the weapon laws are harsh. I am not yet 21, so I cannot get my carry-concealed license for firearms for a while. I live in the suburbs outside of Chicago if that helps, since Chicago makes laws like it's a separate state. From what I understand, a legal knife to carry here has to be folding, 3.5" blade or under, non-switchblade, non-double edged, etc. I'd like to carry a knife other than one of my pocket knives for self defense because they do not have a quick enough draw nor feel safe enough. I have many other fixed blade karambits, daggers, and combat knives in my collection of several lengths. I would carry one of my shorter fixed-blades for self defense and general utility since it's unlikely I'd be searched, but my concern is that if I ever was in a situation I'd have to defend myself, I'd get into big trouble with an illegal blade.
So my question is, what would happen to somebody in Illinois if they harmed or killed somebody in self defense, although the knife they used was not a legal folding knife, but something like a switchblade or fixed blade?
I'd like to know this because It's not exactly protecting yourself if it lands you in jail or something. I don't want to carry a better, but illegal blade for self defense if that means I could get into big trouble. If you can get into big trouble, then what is the best legal self defense knife to carry?

It would be a weapons possession charge. With a good lawyer it would be independent of the act of self defense and might not even be charged. With a bad lawyer you could have that possession used as evidence your actions were premeditated and really leave you back on your heels using a justified defense. In short it could be the difference between a plea deal or walking, and this in a potentially really nasty situation to begin with.

Find a knife that fits or is dang close to the legal definitions in your locality and learn to deploy/use it to suit your confidence. A very small knife can be extremely effective for SD - look at the size of the knives Marcaida routinely trains with.

And get some open handed training - as my Kali instructor once stated "unless you are the aggressor, it is highly likely you will have to survive the first couple seconds open handed even if you have a knife in easy access on your person".

 

[420 Stainless]

"Any statements you make can be used against you in a court of law."

Don't Talk To Cops (above) is sound advice. No matter what you might say, the prosecution will use your statement against you.

ALL parties in a legal case will assert that they're the "victim." Police will use any statement to prosecute. They won't use your statement as a defense. Not ever.

 

[arajaty]

It the absolute best of circumstances you would be acquitted of assault/murder by reason of self-defense and still found guilty of Unlawful Use of Weapons. And that is assuming a lot of variables magically ending up in your favor. Self-defense under the law is a complex issue because the cops and courts trying you were not there when the event happened, and have to piece it together from evidence other than your testimony. The mere fact that you were carrying an illegal knife at the time of altercation is actually evidence against you that could swing the the opinion of a jury into believing you were not acting in self-defense. I've read lots of court transcripts over the years and there are numerous cases in which the defendant used a knife on another person in seemingly defensive situations and was still convicted of murder or assault, due in most cases to not understanding how Use of Force works. I can count the number of cases where there was an acquittal for self-defense on one hand. It's that rare for a knife to be used justifiably. On the other hand, I rarely FileZilla UC Browser https://downloader.vip/rufus/] ever hear of pepper spray usage resulting in a conviction unless the defendant was acting out of malice or trying to rob someone. Indeed a thread I was participating in recently showed me how great pepper spray is and how many of the things you hear about it on the internet are untrue.

So my question is, what would happen to somebody in Illinois if they harmed or killed somebody in self defense, although the knife they used was not a legal folding knife, but something like a switchblade or fixed blade?
I'd like to know this because It's not exactly protecting yourself if it lands you in jail or something. I don't want to carry a better, but illegal blade for self defense if that means I could get into big trouble. If you can get into big trouble, then what is the best legal self defense knife to carry?

Report
Like

 

[BumblingBear]

1. Don't carry illegal knives
2. Know the laws for your state or any state you are in
3. Know martial arts or self defense
4. Know that knives make really terrible self defense weapons. A big stick is usually better
5. Running is usually better than fighting (if you can)*
6. De-escalate if you possibly can*

#5 and #6 are important. Carrying a tool as a weapon is a responsibility and a liability. Before taking action that could ruin someone else's life and yours, be damn sure you have no other choice. For most normal people, a far better SOP is to have situational awareness and not put oneself in sketchy situations. Of course, shit happens, but I would gladly give up my wallet to avoid violence in most circumstances.

This is basically all stuff others have already said. TLDR, really think through the consequences of needing to use a weapon, always act responsible, and understand that while lawfully carrying a weapon, you must be more level-headed and wise than the other guy.

 

[HeavyHanded]

So my question is, what would happen to somebody in Illinois if they harmed or killed somebody in self defense, although the knife they used was not a legal folding knife, but something like a switchblade or fixed blade?
I'd like to know this because It's not exactly protecting yourself if it lands you in jail or something. I don't want to carry a better, but illegal blade for self defense if that means I could get into big trouble. If you can get into big trouble, then what is the best legal self defense knife to carry?

Report
Like

Again, if the circumstances were pretty straightforward the illegal weapon charge might just be dropped either way - you charged with assault w/ deadly weapon/manslaughter (the knife is illegal anyway due to unlawful intent), or court agrees with your affirmative defense and decide it makes no sense to pursue misdemeanor weapons charge.

But, the illegal weapon will always cast a shadow over your justification defense. Research your local knife laws (check your penal code) and just don't carry a knife that you aren't reasonably certain is legit.

After that, get some learning in FMA or some other MA that has a realistic track record with edged tools. A small knife is not the best tool for SD, but it is a handy thing to have anyway and if things go way south it is more effective than nothing.

The best one to carry is one that is:
-legal per local or state definition
-has a handle that allows for a solid grip
-can be presented rapidly