What Kind of flux to use for Forge welding

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have a friend who makes up billets over a month or so and leaves them in a 5-gallon bucket of kerosene until he is ready to do a day or two of welding.

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

I'd be interested in hearing your explanation of the chemistry and how science works. Thanks!

I'll DM you .

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

I'd be interested in hearing your explanation of the chemistry and how science works. Thanks!

I'll DM you .

Actually I don't know how to hahahaha. How the hell do you send a DM on this. And I already read in your profile you're a retired chemist so is this a knowledge test? I'm up for a real talk about chemistry shit and I am assuming you are not trolling me here although you would know exactly what I am about to say - just send me a DM man I honestly cannot find this shit on a cellphone. It's nowhere in your profile? Am I an idiot or what? I'm also not 26 unfortunately

 

[fitzo]

Actually I don't know how to hahahaha. How the hell do you send a DM on this. And I already read in your profile you're a retired chemist so is this a knowledge test? I'm up for a real talk about chemistry shit and I am assuming you are not trolling me here although you would know exactly what I am about to say - just send me a DM man I honestly cannot find this shit on a cellphone. It's nowhere in your profile? Am I an idiot or what? I'm also not 26 unfortunately

To be honest, I don't know as a non-paying member can DM. Someone else will have to clarify.

And, not a knowledge test as I wish to understand your very certain take on why wetting a stack of steel with an aqueous borate solution isn't a tenable proposition. Sadly, I no longer have a smithy, so I can't test Alex's comment in the real world. However, I fail to see how a thin coat of dried-out borate solution wouldn't coat a billet as well if not better than melting it on. Seems like a good way to protect that billet during the first heat.

And, I fail to understand your reference to salt, and would like to understand that, too.

So, I'd sincerely appreciate an explanation. I'm sure others would, too.

 

[velegski]

Just my 2 cents. For damascus or layered stacks I've done no flux, fine ground 20 mule team borax , and kerosene.
for no flux i start with clean ground surfaces, stacked and welded at the 4 corners then at least one welding down each side depending on length. If I can't go directly into forge then they get put into kerosene until I can forge. Just trying to limit billets oxygen exposure. Some say that as it burns it provided the same protection as borax by leaving a layer of soot. (Don't know but it will weld ) Borax is used when cut and restacked if I've got some gaps between layers.
Lastly I shoot for a reduced oxygen atmosphere in a propane forge.
If you use borax just figure on rebuilding/replacing forge floor occasionally. I use the alumina ceramic shelving for kilns for my forge floors. They stand up well to the borax and make replacement easier
2 cents!

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

To be honest, I don't know as a non-paying member can DM. Someone else will have to clarify.

And, not a knowledge test as I wish to understand your very certain take on why wetting a stack of steel with an aqueous borate solution isn't a tenable proposition. Sadly, I no longer have a smithy, so I can't test Alex's comment in the real world. However, I fail to see how a thin coat of dried-out borate solution wouldn't coat a billet as well if not better than melting it on. Seems like a good way to protect that billet during the first heat.

And, I fail to understand your reference to salt, and would like to understand that, too.

So, I'd sincerely appreciate an explanation. I'm sure others would, too.

Obviously you know I didn't think about it and I was incorrect. I knew I was wrong 3 seconds after I posted. The internet is a joke, welcome.

 

[fitzo]

Obviously you know I didn't think about it and I was incorrect. I knew I was wrong 3 seconds after I posted. The internet is a joke, welcome.

First off, I admire your willingness to admit a mistake. Sincerely. Not that common.

And, to clarify: I didn't *know* you were incorrect. I *thought* you were incorrect. There's a difference. Unfortunately, though, I am nearing 71 and ill; after Covid and 2 years into Long Haul Covid effects, one can easily question whether they actually know something or it's a cockeyed mismatch of stuff dredged out of the memory stacks with a faulty recall mechanism. Not to mention, I am 20 years medically retired and out of the lab, so maybe I've slipped due to that that, too. So, I considered you may well know something I have gotten wrong or never knew in the first place, and I wanted to know.

Thus, I asked. Apologies if that offended. Again, though, thanks for responding. Peace!

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

First off, I admire your willingness to admit a mistake. Sincerely. Not that common.

And, to clarify: I didn't *know* you were incorrect. I *thought* you were incorrect. There's a difference. Unfortunately, though, I am nearing 71 and ill; after Covid and 2 years into Long Haul Covid effects, one can easily question whether they actually know something or it's a cockeyed mismatch of stuff dredged out of the memory stacks with a faulty recall mechanism. Not to mention, I am 20 years medically retired and out of the lab, so maybe I've slipped due to that that, too. So, I considered you may well know something I have gotten wrong or never knew in the first place, and I wanted to know.

Thus, I asked. Apologies if that offended. Again, though, thanks for responding. Peace!

Oh shit ya no, sorry there sir I hope my text wasn't taken that way and of course I wasn't offended - I challenge you to offend me ha. I was actually driving and I couldn't get enough text out quick enough but yes I readily admit when I am wrong and I should have corrected that one - no excuses. On another note, sorry to hear about the health area. I'm still yes a highly cocky young man but I likewise have not "long COVID" but general health issues that. Well honestly I don't have any diagnosable conditions but with my own research and I can't count how many specialists multiple times - nobody can figure out why I eat basically. A keto diet of I'd say around 2000 calories a day which is as much as I can, they don't make drugs that make you hungry and pots out cause I'm 31 and started smoking at 17 so I just literally don't get high even on pure ∆9 THC so I'm 5'6" and 100lbs - I use the excuse for not forging ingot steels hahahaha. But my point is that I was hesitant on not the mRNA technology but what we were actually delivering and I mean no offense to anyone but it's basically now a fact that. The spike glutamate protein is toxic to the human body and leeches easily from an IM injection mainly due to the idiots injecting it and not keeping it cool enough that it should instantly freeze to the inside of the needle at the temps that I saw at least. That's just one of the typical people mistakes I'm not blaming anyone by saying this I would have assumed the same shit if I was an immunologist(edit: likely* would have). So ya I totally get where you are coming from with that and I said I should have taken the time to correct it, I'm sorry that I assumed you would guess where I was going with shit that quite literally didn't make sense but I'm not sure if I really assumed you would even bother listening to someone my age without a college degree. I honestly didn't but likewise, good to see that someone besides me knows that as long as we are humans well. Hm. Well. Ahem. Yeah um. see my problem here? ahahaha. But no I was thinking about it mixing with oxygen and hydrogen to form an acid and obviously posted. Thought. And I was like damn I hope nobody reads that but ya no nothing that you missed

 

[fitzo]

Oh shit ya no, sorry there sir I hope my text wasn't taken that way and of course I wasn't offended - I challenge you to offend me ha. I was actually driving and I couldn't get enough text out quick enough but yes I readily admit when I am wrong and I should have corrected that one - no excuses. On another note, sorry to hear about the health area. I'm still yes a highly cocky young man but I likewise have not "long COVID" but general health issues that. Well honestly I don't have any diagnosable conditions but with my own research and I can't count how many specialists multiple times - nobody can figure out why I eat basically. A keto diet of I'd say around 2000 calories a day which is as much as I can, they don't make drugs that make you hungry and pots out cause I'm 31 and started smoking at 17 so I just literally don't get high even on pure ∆9 THC so I'm 5'6" and 100lbs - I use the excuse for not forging ingot steels hahahaha. But my point is that I was hesitant on not the mRNA technology but what we were actually delivering and I mean no offense to anyone but it's basically now a fact that. The spike glutamate protein is toxic to the human body and leeches easily from an IM injection mainly due to the idiots injecting it and not keeping it cool enough that it should instantly freeze to the inside of the needle at the temps that I saw at least. That's just one of the typical people mistakes I'm not blaming anyone by saying this I would have assumed the same shit if I was an immunologist(edit: likely* would have). So ya I totally get where you are coming from with that and I said I should have taken the time to correct it, I'm sorry that I assumed you would guess where I was going with shit that quite literally didn't make sense but I'm not sure if I really assumed you would even bother listening to someone my age without a college degree. I honestly didn't but likewise, good to see that someone besides me knows that as long as we are humans well. Hm. Well. Ahem. Yeah um. see my problem here? ahahaha. But no I was thinking about it mixing with oxygen and hydrogen to form an acid and obviously posted. Thought. And I was like damn I hope nobody reads that but ya no nothing that you missed

Sorry to hear you have health issues, too. I have been unhealthy since childhood diseases ravaged me, so I can commiserate.

I’ve known two people who had metabolisms such that they were very slender and had a difficult time eating enough to gain weight. I hope you can gain. And too bad about the pot. Clean out for awhile and the tolerance fades, I promise. LOL

As for that mRNA poison, I have nothing good to say about it except I’m glad it’s helped other people. My wife and I improved after the first run of Long Haul (LHC), but then we got vaccinated. First mRNA vax shot made us both mildly ill. The second injection liked to have killed both of us as we lay delirious the first week and then descended back into an episode of LHC symptoms that still aren’t gone. That was February 2021. I was stupid and scared enough to get talked into the booster by my MD. I decided I’d get it first so my wife wouldn’t suffer if it went bad. It did. That was Sep 2021. I’ve still got fatigue, shortness of breath, and the craziest tinnitus I’ve ever had. Supposedly, there are a small percentage of people that meet a certain set of health conditions and the vaccine re-triggers LHC. That’s their story. It will be years before research turns to us outliers and they have time to figure out the bad side of their vaccine. My wife and I will stay isolated as possible and await the Indian traditional protein vaccine Novavax. It passed FDA committee, so hopefully full approval and release in time for flu/Covid season. Since I am immunosuppressed and compromised, I need something or I can’t trust leaving my home. I am a hermit.

And, finally, why would I listen to someone young who doesn’t have a college degree? That’s simple - you almost certainly know something I’d like to know but don’t yet. Degrees don’t impress me. Smart critical thinking does.

Nice chatting. Be well.

Apologies for taking this off topic...

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

Sorry to hear you have health issues, too. I have been unhealthy since childhood diseases ravaged me, so I can commiserate.

I’ve known two people who had metabolisms such that they were very slender and had a difficult time eating enough to gain weight. I hope you can gain. And too bad about the pot. Clean out for awhile and the tolerance fades, I promise. LOL

As for that mRNA poison, I have nothing good to say about it except I’m glad it’s helped other people. My wife and I improved after the first run of Long Haul (LHC), but then we got vaccinated. First mRNA vax shot made us both mildly ill. The second injection liked to have killed both of us as we lay delirious the first week and then descended back into an episode of LHC symptoms that still aren’t gone. That was February 2021. I was stupid and scared enough to get talked into the booster by my MD. I decided I’d get it first so my wife wouldn’t suffer if it went bad. It did. That was Sep 2021. I’ve still got fatigue, shortness of breath, and the craziest tinnitus I’ve ever had. Supposedly, there are a small percentage of people that meet a certain set of health conditions and the vaccine re-triggers LHC. That’s their story. It will be years before research turns to us outliers and they have time to figure out the bad side of their vaccine. My wife and I will stay isolated as possible and await the Indian traditional protein vaccine Novavax. It passed FDA committee, so hopefully full approval and release in time for flu/Covid season. Since I am immunosuppressed and compromised, I need something or I can’t trust leaving my home. I am a hermit.

And, finally, why would I listen to someone young who doesn’t have a college degree? That’s simple - you almost certainly know something I’d like to know but don’t yet. Degrees don’t impress me. Smart critical thinking does.

Nice chatting. Be well.

Apologies for taking this off topic...

Same. and tinnitus? Interesting that seems to be a pretty common one. Eh. Yeah not gonna lie I really wish I could have spoken to you but you're...right in the fact that if ya had it once um. something something natural immunity beta cells something something. The information honestly has been known since july 21 and I learned this in August of 21 which is literally the only reason i didn't, and the mRNA delivery system is actually safe (i believe). I was doing the research for my parents and grandparents who I did actually advise to get the first two and wish I - well honestly when they got them the research wasnt out likewise around Feb 21 so I would have done the SAME THING heh. The question then becomes what are we delivering and the unknown unknowns that shit im 31 and I know as long as i'm a human being I freakin question myself constantly but you'd be correct there sir that I think that little "critical thinking" part has gone out of style like an 80s cardigan. But props to at least doing it the same way I would and take the shit myself first - although sadly I pretty much know that anything that's going to be a significant deal I'm just. Not going to know about in the amount of time that would be the speed that anyone with a brain would move on this. Also I gotta say cause I try and call shit balls and strikes - technically speaking we both know that perhaps maybe the damn booster did prevent a serious reaction that neither of us would know about but from what you have said - I'd assume you'd not be asymptomatic and my guess is that the vaccine is retriggering your beta cell response - but I'm literally guessing out of my ass. Indeed pleasure to meet ya man, I'm not really religious but I'm not an atheist i'm agnostic (I think that's what "If a God exists it's way beyond what our human brains could possibly comprehend considering we struggle with a vacuum and infinity" is?) but I'll say a little prayer for you guys to a God I'm not sure exists hah.

Also "That’s simple - you almost certainly know something I’d like to know but don’t yet." gee ya think? Now let's figure out how much you know that I don't and what I'd like to know eh? I'd assume the scales are a little off balance. Just a guess.

OP, likewise, sorry for getting off topic here not trying to hijack your thread but I can't DM people and I have ran websites so with the number of users here I'm not exactly sure what they're using the money for. Hosting this does not cost. That. So I ain't gonna pay unless I know where the money is going.

Love all of you guys <3 (as in please do not read my text as anything more than what it is, I did not write it to mean anything but EXACTLY what I said and if anyone has a problem with my typing - I'M NOT GOING TO KNOW ABOUT IT UNLESS YOU TELL ME SO PLEASE DO SO I CAN APOLOGIZE LIKE A MAN! )

 

[Ken H>]

Smart critical thinking does.

That is something they don't teach enough about in college,, or high school for that matter. Several years ago my step-daughter was in college and took a course call "critical thinking". I read the text book and swore the author had been talking with my Dad. To sum it up was "think about it, does it make sense"?

Like most folks, I do like to have the correct answer, but MUCH more important to me it's MOST important to have the correct answer no matter who provides it.

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

That is something they don't teach enough about in college,, or high school for that matter. Several years ago my step-daughter was in college and took a course call "critical thinking". I read the text book and swore the author had been talking with my Dad. To sum it up was "think about it, does it make sense"?

Like most folks, I do like to have the correct answer, but MUCH more important to me it's MOST important to have the correct answer no matter who provides it.

The bad part is that I am 31. People my age and older.... I mean I had a 68 year old Vietnam USMC 66-70 guy stop talking to me over a disagreement in politics. Need I say anymore?

And god knows I would be the first one to say our immigration system seriously needs fixed it takes way too long to legally get here even but if you cannot say that. The southern border being a mess is in any way shape or form somehow NOT a national security threat regardless of politics (yes, said disagreement) which I hate and most certainly won't get into here, you're fucking stupid or it's massive cognitive dissonance. Education? Heh don't get me started. All I'll say is thank Jesus Christ that I am an autodidact. I'll call Red Label Abrasives tomorrow and get an answer for all of us. They say they answer questions and I have some rather complex ones.

Pretty good forum of guys. Wish I had found this sooner!

- Al

 

[RaiderJameson]

so just to get back to the discussion of flux, should i fold my steel an flux it and then beat it flat to make damascus or let it cool, grind it clean, weld it back up and then flatten it. if i fold it quick enough it may not gather forge scale. or am i wrong?

 

[Super_Alloy_Alan]

so just to get back to the discussion of flux, should i fold my steel an flux it and then beat it flat to make damascus or let it cool, grind it clean, weld it back up and then flatten it. if i fold it quick enough it may not gather forge scale. or am i wrong?

You should flux in between layers under heat. You'd be correct it may not gather much carbon but you don't want to take a chance with forge welds. If I had the time to explain the science behind welding - I prefer explosives frankly!

Not necessarily critical heat but stick it on before going into the oven*

In a word - yes you're wrong according to me. Now I love you just as much I'm just trying to give you a laugh and I know I failed miserably

 

[RaiderJameson]

You should flux in between layers under heat. You'd be correct it may not gather much carbon but you don't want to take a chance with forge welds. If I had the time to explain the science behind welding - I prefer explosives frankly!

Not necessarily critical heat but stick it on before going into the oven*

In a word - yes you're wrong according to me. Now I love you just as much I'm just trying to give you a laugh and I know I failed miserably

No worries. Laugh recieved. I just got my forge running and am on day 2 of forging a knife in between work and school. I am just gathering information as i go along so i can make educated decisions. it sounds like we both like explosions thank yall for the info.

 

[A.McPherson]

I am just gathering information as i go along so i can make educated decisions. it sounds like we both like explosions thank yall for the info.

Look up "scarf welding" on YouTube if you really want to get a good handle on forge welding.
It's a different (and I think, more difficult) technique than we use for pattern welded billets, but it's a smaller, more technical weld that will really help you understand what has to happen for a forge weld to work.
At least in my opinion... And you know what people say about them.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

The best system is to draw out, cut and stack, reweld, etc.

However, if you do not let it cool past red-orange you can hot cut it partway through, brush it off, flux it lightly, fold it over, flux lightly again, and re-weld. You can continue to repeat this cycle many times as long as it stays above red heat. This would well with a press or power hammer.

Once cooled to red heat you will have to grind off the scale before continuing.

 

[weo]

The bad part is...

And god knows....

Pretty good forum of guys. Wish I had found this sooner!

A big part of what makes us seem like a good bunch of folks is that discussion of political opinions are not allowed here in shop talk.

 

[Blues]

Folks, since some members are contacting staff about off-topic political discussion, let's just agree to get back to the topic at hand so we don't have to hand out warnings and sidetrack the discussion further. Thanks.

 

[RaiderJameson]

The best system is to draw out, cut and stack, reweld, etc.

However, if you do not let it cool past red-orange you can hot cut it partway through, brush it off, flux it lightly, fold it over, flux lightly again, and re-weld. You can continue to repeat this cycle many times as long as it stays above red heat. This would well with a press or power hammer.

Once cooled to red heat you will have to grind off the scale before continuing.

Cool i will try that. If i do it with one kind of steel will i get a pattern or not? I mean wil the seams come out as a cool pattern?