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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
What Makes a Good, Traditional Barlow?
- Thread starter waynorth
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Shapleigh Diamond Edge in the Pocket Today.
That beautiful old Diamond Edge inspired me to carry mine today.
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After some stubborn cleaning and getting rid of all the rust I could..Still 100% solid with nice walk and talk.
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After some stubborn cleaning and getting rid of all the rust I could..Still 100% solid with nice walk and talk.
o man, what happened to it?
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Haha what did I do to it or what happened to it before I spruced it up? The previous owner lives in a high humidity area. Told me these were actually all pretty new and in good shape, they were just stuck in storage during a move and exposed to high humidity there while in storage.
For how I cleaned it up..mixture of metal polish, PB blaster, light sanding, quick release, steel wool, and a whole lot of elbow grease.
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guess its a user now!
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As they're meant to be~ I prefer users anyhow
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We all enjoy our knives in different ways, but I love seeing a well-used TC barlow. Due to environmental factors and their aftermath, this particular piece is now 100% poised for a useful life.
~ P.
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We all enjoy our knives in different ways, but I love seeing a well-used TC barlow. Due to environmental factors and their aftermath, this particular piece is now 100% poised for a useful life.
~ P.
yup
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_BRudWdHI-...25282%29.JPG
http://togetherinfood.files.wordpres...8/raccoon1.jpg
from an old phillll comment back in the past of this thread
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Thanks Phil, glad I took your advice to just tackle the rust head on myself.
We all enjoy our knives in different ways, but I love seeing a well-used TC barlow. Due to environmental factors and their aftermath, this particular piece is now 100% poised for a useful life.
~ P.
Agreed P
It rode around all day with me
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Quote Originally Posted by Jack Black
That's very interesting Cambertree. Actually the names Barlow and Barley have the same root etymologically, and in the distant past, particularly when few people could read or write, they appear to have been quite interchangeable. The Sheffield cutler Obadiah Barlow may well have been born Obadiah Barley, the name recorded on his apprenticeship records. Knife aside, it's interesting that the word may have been in use continuously by children for several hundred years
Would I be right in supposing that even a long-bolstered jack knife with a clip-blade would have been referred to as a Bunny Knife in Australia? Do you know how long that name goes back? Contemporary Sheffield cutlers can get very confused about knife patterns ( ), but isn't the Eggington 'Bunny Knife' a short-bolstered Jack?
__________________
Jack, that derivation of the Barlow surname from 'barley' is interesting - I suppose it may have been an occupational name originally, possibly a farmer or farmhand's name.
Regarding the Barlow pattern being known as a 'bunny knife' in Australia, here is what I've been able to find.
By way of setting the historical context, rabbits were brought to Australia as food on the First Fleet in 1788, but didn't really take hold on the mainland until the late 1850s. In Tasmania they had been a serious problem in some areas since the 1820s. There were 'successful' attempts in Victoria and South Australia in 1857 and 1859 to release breeding pairs into the wild as game animals on wealthy graziers estates. By 1887 they had spread so fast and so far across the continent, and were causing so much agricultural damage, that the New South Wales government posted a £25,000 reward for anyone able to come up with new ways to control the plague.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbits_in_Australia
So hunting and trapping rabbits for their meat and skins was a pretty common way for Australians to supplement their diets and incomes and for many it would have comprised their primary income. Kids would start off using ferrets and snares, and graduate to utilising traps and firearms. The FN Browning .22 pump action was a favoured rifle for taking rabbits, using .22 Short rounds. Known as a 'gallery gun' in Australia, it's not at all uncommon to see old ones from that era going cheap at gun shows with worn out rifling. Now, anyone who knows their rimfires knows that's the mark of a LOT of use.
Here's a clip of a rabbit drive from 1931.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea3u6-w7fno
So consider that all these hunters and trappers and skinners and farmers and kids with ferrets needed to have an inexpensive decent quality knife, that took and held a keen edge for their 'bunny knife'. Sometimes this tool was a sheath knife of a trade type pattern, but I think that would have been more common for the pros. Most people would have had a jack-knife they could carry in their pockets.
Obviously all sorts of patterns were used, but given that Australia was a big enough market, there were specific patterns adapted for the purpose. The one and two bladed clip point barlow with pen blade secondary, and its short bolstered teardrop handled sibling were what epitomised the classic 'bunny knife'. Looking at some of the old ads, the belly of the clip blade seems to have had a bit more drop and sweep to it than barlows from elsewhere, and the clip is sometimes curved enough that it has a slight trailing point. I couldn't say if these are prevailing differences in the pattern which are peculiar to Australia though, or just manufacturer variations. Some of the clip blade styles would definitely have been optimised for skinning though. I think the barlow became popular for all the same reasons it did in America - it was a strong, durable, reliable tool for people close to their pioneering roots. The Joseph Rodgers name is still remembered by people of a certain age who wouldn't be able to tell you any other knife brands. Other Barlow bunny knives were Sheffield sourced and stamped with the name of local brands.
How far back does the Barlow 'bunny knife' connection go?
Given that the rabbit plague had become a very serious problem by the latter years of the 19th century, I would hazard a guess that large cutlers and wholesalers would have referred to specific rabbiting pocket knives in their catalogues by the 1890s.
Newpaper advertising copy for cutlers from the earlier part of the 19th century usually refers simply to 'pen knives, pocket knives, and sporting knives.' I suppose 'pocket knives' as a distinct category, refers to what we would now call jack-knives.
These images come from the 1924 W. Jno Baker catalogue. William John Baker was one of the best known cutlers in Sydney who ran a large wholesale and retail import business from 1888 until his death in 1930. They are published in Keith Spencer and Joan Renton-Spencer's 2015 book 'Australian and New Zealand Cutlers and Cutlery 1788-1988'.
(I have cropped and blown-up the relevant Barlow/Bunny knife after each full page catalogue image.)
Does this last knife qualify as a Barlow due to the handle shape?
Spencer believes that the pocket knives with the W. Jno. Baker tang stamp were from the Phoenix Cutlery Works in Sheffield from 1888-1893 and were possibly sourced from Joseph Rodgers after that, given that he also sold a large variety of Rodgers tableware under their own name. (Baker also sold Schrade Safety Press Button pocket knives with his own tang stamp.)
Here's another image from a catalogue of Melbourne company Ward Bros. (I'm unsure of the date, but I'd guess 1940s or 50s.)
So you can see that the Barlow connection in the Australian mind to the classic Bunny knife was definitely in place by the 1920s.
Interestingly, if the secondary blade was a spey, they were often referred to as 'Stock knives', along with the more familiar three or four blade Stockman pattern. I believe this applied likewise to both the long and short bolstered teardrop jack pattern. So in the Ward Bros. catalogue page above, the Bunny knives would traditionally have been both 510 and 513, whereas 509, 515 and 516 would have been 'two bladed stock knives'.
Hopefully more people can add to this information (or correct me if I have been in error). I would love to see some photos of well used old Barlow Bunny knives.
I'd also be interested to hear from any Kiwis if the same terminologies applied over in New Zealand.
Note: Jack, I had trouble quoting the right parts of your post I was replying to, so I just cut and pasted your text and put a line at the end of it, before my reply. I hope this is not confusing to anyone.
That's very interesting Cambertree. Actually the names Barlow and Barley have the same root etymologically, and in the distant past, particularly when few people could read or write, they appear to have been quite interchangeable. The Sheffield cutler Obadiah Barlow may well have been born Obadiah Barley, the name recorded on his apprenticeship records. Knife aside, it's interesting that the word may have been in use continuously by children for several hundred years
Would I be right in supposing that even a long-bolstered jack knife with a clip-blade would have been referred to as a Bunny Knife in Australia? Do you know how long that name goes back? Contemporary Sheffield cutlers can get very confused about knife patterns ( ), but isn't the Eggington 'Bunny Knife' a short-bolstered Jack?
__________________
Jack, that derivation of the Barlow surname from 'barley' is interesting - I suppose it may have been an occupational name originally, possibly a farmer or farmhand's name.
Regarding the Barlow pattern being known as a 'bunny knife' in Australia, here is what I've been able to find.
By way of setting the historical context, rabbits were brought to Australia as food on the First Fleet in 1788, but didn't really take hold on the mainland until the late 1850s. In Tasmania they had been a serious problem in some areas since the 1820s. There were 'successful' attempts in Victoria and South Australia in 1857 and 1859 to release breeding pairs into the wild as game animals on wealthy graziers estates. By 1887 they had spread so fast and so far across the continent, and were causing so much agricultural damage, that the New South Wales government posted a £25,000 reward for anyone able to come up with new ways to control the plague.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbits_in_Australia
So hunting and trapping rabbits for their meat and skins was a pretty common way for Australians to supplement their diets and incomes and for many it would have comprised their primary income. Kids would start off using ferrets and snares, and graduate to utilising traps and firearms. The FN Browning .22 pump action was a favoured rifle for taking rabbits, using .22 Short rounds. Known as a 'gallery gun' in Australia, it's not at all uncommon to see old ones from that era going cheap at gun shows with worn out rifling. Now, anyone who knows their rimfires knows that's the mark of a LOT of use.
Here's a clip of a rabbit drive from 1931.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea3u6-w7fno
So consider that all these hunters and trappers and skinners and farmers and kids with ferrets needed to have an inexpensive decent quality knife, that took and held a keen edge for their 'bunny knife'. Sometimes this tool was a sheath knife of a trade type pattern, but I think that would have been more common for the pros. Most people would have had a jack-knife they could carry in their pockets.
Obviously all sorts of patterns were used, but given that Australia was a big enough market, there were specific patterns adapted for the purpose. The one and two bladed clip point barlow with pen blade secondary, and its short bolstered teardrop handled sibling were what epitomised the classic 'bunny knife'. Looking at some of the old ads, the belly of the clip blade seems to have had a bit more drop and sweep to it than barlows from elsewhere, and the clip is sometimes curved enough that it has a slight trailing point. I couldn't say if these are prevailing differences in the pattern which are peculiar to Australia though, or just manufacturer variations. Some of the clip blade styles would definitely have been optimised for skinning though. I think the barlow became popular for all the same reasons it did in America - it was a strong, durable, reliable tool for people close to their pioneering roots. The Joseph Rodgers name is still remembered by people of a certain age who wouldn't be able to tell you any other knife brands. Other Barlow bunny knives were Sheffield sourced and stamped with the name of local brands.
How far back does the Barlow 'bunny knife' connection go?
Given that the rabbit plague had become a very serious problem by the latter years of the 19th century, I would hazard a guess that large cutlers and wholesalers would have referred to specific rabbiting pocket knives in their catalogues by the 1890s.
Newpaper advertising copy for cutlers from the earlier part of the 19th century usually refers simply to 'pen knives, pocket knives, and sporting knives.' I suppose 'pocket knives' as a distinct category, refers to what we would now call jack-knives.
These images come from the 1924 W. Jno Baker catalogue. William John Baker was one of the best known cutlers in Sydney who ran a large wholesale and retail import business from 1888 until his death in 1930. They are published in Keith Spencer and Joan Renton-Spencer's 2015 book 'Australian and New Zealand Cutlers and Cutlery 1788-1988'.
(I have cropped and blown-up the relevant Barlow/Bunny knife after each full page catalogue image.)
Does this last knife qualify as a Barlow due to the handle shape?
Spencer believes that the pocket knives with the W. Jno. Baker tang stamp were from the Phoenix Cutlery Works in Sheffield from 1888-1893 and were possibly sourced from Joseph Rodgers after that, given that he also sold a large variety of Rodgers tableware under their own name. (Baker also sold Schrade Safety Press Button pocket knives with his own tang stamp.)
Here's another image from a catalogue of Melbourne company Ward Bros. (I'm unsure of the date, but I'd guess 1940s or 50s.)
So you can see that the Barlow connection in the Australian mind to the classic Bunny knife was definitely in place by the 1920s.
Interestingly, if the secondary blade was a spey, they were often referred to as 'Stock knives', along with the more familiar three or four blade Stockman pattern. I believe this applied likewise to both the long and short bolstered teardrop jack pattern. So in the Ward Bros. catalogue page above, the Bunny knives would traditionally have been both 510 and 513, whereas 509, 515 and 516 would have been 'two bladed stock knives'.
Hopefully more people can add to this information (or correct me if I have been in error). I would love to see some photos of well used old Barlow Bunny knives.
I'd also be interested to hear from any Kiwis if the same terminologies applied over in New Zealand.
Note: Jack, I had trouble quoting the right parts of your post I was replying to, so I just cut and pasted your text and put a line at the end of it, before my reply. I hope this is not confusing to anyone.
Last edited:
r8shell
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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- Jan 16, 2010
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r8shell, congratulations!... Empire Barlows are hard to find.
From Goins' Encyclopedia of Cutlery Markings:
Your knife has a different tang stamp than mine or Paul's. I suspect it's an earlier version stamp. Charlie C. will know more.
Thanks for the info, MerryMadMonk. If I'm reading things right, could my Empire be the oldest example of an American-made Barlow?
And thanks, Cambertree, I've heard the term "bunny knife" but didn't know just what it was. :thumbup:
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Cambertree, that last drawing of in your post looks just like a Taylor Eye Witness Barlow.
http://www.harrison-fisher.co.uk/frontpage/pocketknife.jpg
http://www.harrison-fisher.co.uk/frontpage/pocketknife.jpg
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Thank you for a most fascinating post Cambertree :thumbup:
Rather than being an occupational name, Barlow, Barley, Barlowe, (and Bierlow, as well as various other related forms) derive from a common place name, with Barlow and Bierlow certainly still being in use here. It was common because people often took the name of the place they lived, particularly as they began to travel, or the name of their lord or master, who may have previously adopted the name. For example, the Norman Albini and DAbitot families, taking the local name for the hill on which it stood, named their home Barlow Hall, and changed their name to De Barlow (later Barlow) - the Barlows of Barlow Hall.
There has been much discussion of the Bunny Knife on this forum in the past. I have been familiar with it since I was a boy, because one of my grandfather's carried a Rodgers Bunny Knife. It was a bit like this one (but with the 'Bunny Knife' etch).
However, so far as I am aware, no poster has ever previously mentioned that some of these knives were Barlows. For me, that is quite a fascinating piece of knowledge
I believe that after US import tariffs reduced their share of the US market, Joseph Rodgers were pre-eminent among the Sheffield firms in seeing Australia as a replacement export market, with various knives clearly specifically aimed at that market.
Thank you for your research Cambertree, and for presenting it so well :thumbup: :thumbup:
It's incredible to see just how little the Sheffield 'town-pattern' clip has changed over the years isn't it? It hasn't at all really. Makes you wonder how old the tooling is! They certainly are a conservative bunch in Sheffield!
Also compare the clip on this knife:
To this one.
Rather than being an occupational name, Barlow, Barley, Barlowe, (and Bierlow, as well as various other related forms) derive from a common place name, with Barlow and Bierlow certainly still being in use here. It was common because people often took the name of the place they lived, particularly as they began to travel, or the name of their lord or master, who may have previously adopted the name. For example, the Norman Albini and DAbitot families, taking the local name for the hill on which it stood, named their home Barlow Hall, and changed their name to De Barlow (later Barlow) - the Barlows of Barlow Hall.
There has been much discussion of the Bunny Knife on this forum in the past. I have been familiar with it since I was a boy, because one of my grandfather's carried a Rodgers Bunny Knife. It was a bit like this one (but with the 'Bunny Knife' etch).
However, so far as I am aware, no poster has ever previously mentioned that some of these knives were Barlows. For me, that is quite a fascinating piece of knowledge
I believe that after US import tariffs reduced their share of the US market, Joseph Rodgers were pre-eminent among the Sheffield firms in seeing Australia as a replacement export market, with various knives clearly specifically aimed at that market.
Thank you for your research Cambertree, and for presenting it so well :thumbup: :thumbup:
It's incredible to see just how little the Sheffield 'town-pattern' clip has changed over the years isn't it? It hasn't at all really. Makes you wonder how old the tooling is! They certainly are a conservative bunch in Sheffield!
Also compare the clip on this knife:
To this one.
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Augie
Gold Member
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- Aug 23, 2014
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Cambertree, excellant post, thanks for taking the time to put that together.
Jack, same as always excellent information and knives, thanks.
Wife and I left the Rendezvous and pretty much travelled to the Eastern Shore of MD, Chrisfield to visit a friend,
On the way back we stopped in a couple of antique shops, Eastern Shore has history dating back to the 1600's and Native American history going way back so you never know what you may find.
Looking thru one of the cases I spotted what looked like a nice bone handled Barlow with a bolster stamp I did not recognize, pulled it out of the case and low and behold it is a Miller Brothers. Not in great shape, no snap on pen, great snap on main with no blade play, handles are ok with a couple of small cracks and really nice bone.
The bolster stamp is pretty classy, the tang stamps are different on each blade, the main is Miller Bros Meriden USA and the pen is Miller Bros Cut Co Meriden.
Jack, same as always excellent information and knives, thanks.
Wife and I left the Rendezvous and pretty much travelled to the Eastern Shore of MD, Chrisfield to visit a friend,
On the way back we stopped in a couple of antique shops, Eastern Shore has history dating back to the 1600's and Native American history going way back so you never know what you may find.
Looking thru one of the cases I spotted what looked like a nice bone handled Barlow with a bolster stamp I did not recognize, pulled it out of the case and low and behold it is a Miller Brothers. Not in great shape, no snap on pen, great snap on main with no blade play, handles are ok with a couple of small cracks and really nice bone.
The bolster stamp is pretty classy, the tang stamps are different on each blade, the main is Miller Bros Meriden USA and the pen is Miller Bros Cut Co Meriden.
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- Dec 2, 2005
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- 69,120
Thank you my friend, that Miller Brothers Barlow is a very nice find Congratulations :thumbup:
Congratulations :thumbup:
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- Apr 23, 2000
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- 5,501
Looking thru one of the cases I spotted what looked like a nice bone handled Barlow with a bolster stamp I did not recognize, pulled it out of the case and low and behold it is a Miller Brothers. Not in great shape, no snap on pen, great snap on main with no blade play, handles are ok with a couple of small cracks and really nice bone.
The bolster stamp is pretty classy, the tang stamps are different on each blade, the main is Miller Bros Meriden USA and the pen is Miller Bros Cut Co Meriden.
What a great find! That bolster stamp is quite intricate and the bone is superb.