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What Makes a Knife a Work of Art?
- Thread starter jideta
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Joe Paranee's examples: Mind. Blown. (Thank you.)
Weapons as art objects? Civilization is powerful.
Weapons as art objects? Civilization is powerful.
Richard338
Gold Member
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Wow, I've been to many museums including the Louvre, but it looks like I need to get to the Met.
(I thought the photos might be from Joe's living room until I saw the tourists in the background)
(I thought the photos might be from Joe's living room until I saw the tourists in the background)
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I believe art is what the viewer wants. I consider myself a simple man, and i love to see high quality machined parts. I know there is not too much craft on it, but i love to admire it. I think my mind thinks not only in the operator that makes the piece (could be a robot), but also in the engineers behind the design, all the hours of testing to develop a better and more durable desing, even in the machines used in the process. I see a ball bearing, a shaft, a piston, a gear, etc, and i think that's art. Maybe you'll think i'm crazy, haha. So, art is a very subjective thing.
I try allways to make funtional knives. People use to tell me i'm an artist, or somethin like "that knife is a piece of art", and sometimes they are simple kitchen knives...
I also believe that a craftman knows when he/she is making, or trying, to make art. Even i sometimes attempt to make something "more special", that i know at least one person will considder it as art.
Beyond that, i never consider myself as an artist, although, while time passes, that filling of being an artist invades me.
Another think that i consider at the time to qualify my work as art or not, is the feedback of better knifemakers/bladesmiths.
That is my point of view.
Best regars.
I try allways to make funtional knives. People use to tell me i'm an artist, or somethin like "that knife is a piece of art", and sometimes they are simple kitchen knives...
I also believe that a craftman knows when he/she is making, or trying, to make art. Even i sometimes attempt to make something "more special", that i know at least one person will considder it as art.
Beyond that, i never consider myself as an artist, although, while time passes, that filling of being an artist invades me.
Another think that i consider at the time to qualify my work as art or not, is the feedback of better knifemakers/bladesmiths.
That is my point of view.
Best regars.
J. Doyle
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I think the the cool and interesting part of things for me is that once I start doing something, anything really, it expands my horizons greatly.
With music when I was younger, I liked a very certain narrow style and scoffed at everything else with virtually no exceptions. That style led to me wanting to learn guitar. But once I started learning guitar (still learning), I found new appreciation for many different styles of music that I would have never given a listen to.
Knives are no different. They've been an integral part of my life since I was about 6. And I liked very specific things about a narrow few specific designs. Those knives made me want to learn to make my own (still learning). But once I started making knives, my horizons expanded and I began to appreciate all manner of knives and craftsmanship even if they didn't necessarily fall in my small wheel house of preferences.
Art is all around the knife world in many forms. On the surface, I would say that flowing curves, great lines and nice proportions with premium materials would be 'artful'.
But one can argue that making a field grade basic user knife t hats comfortable and holds up well is a real art form. And designing/programming a knife that is nearly completely made using CNC machining is another art form all by itself.
I can easily think of a dozen makers who are true artists in their work that might not be stylistically my cup of tea but have gained my respect and appreciation for their art work.
With music when I was younger, I liked a very certain narrow style and scoffed at everything else with virtually no exceptions. That style led to me wanting to learn guitar. But once I started learning guitar (still learning), I found new appreciation for many different styles of music that I would have never given a listen to.
Knives are no different. They've been an integral part of my life since I was about 6. And I liked very specific things about a narrow few specific designs. Those knives made me want to learn to make my own (still learning). But once I started making knives, my horizons expanded and I began to appreciate all manner of knives and craftsmanship even if they didn't necessarily fall in my small wheel house of preferences.
Art is all around the knife world in many forms. On the surface, I would say that flowing curves, great lines and nice proportions with premium materials would be 'artful'.
But one can argue that making a field grade basic user knife t hats comfortable and holds up well is a real art form. And designing/programming a knife that is nearly completely made using CNC machining is another art form all by itself.
I can easily think of a dozen makers who are true artists in their work that might not be stylistically my cup of tea but have gained my respect and appreciation for their art work.
not2sharp
Platinum Member
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Art is a subjective thing. Some of it is towards your taste, much is not. That is just the way it is.
When it comes to knives; it is my impression that most people can appreciate function, and that a knife with proper functional aesthetics is that much more desirable. Knives may be relatively simple tools, they rend materials, and that is about it. But, there is still a lot that is complexed about them. They need to properly fit the user's hand, they need to have the right geometry to effectively cut whatever they are intended to cut, they need to be properly weighted and balanced for the task, and they need to be made of the right materials and structure - less they fail. They can be embellished as well, but at least to me soundness comes first.
n2s
When it comes to knives; it is my impression that most people can appreciate function, and that a knife with proper functional aesthetics is that much more desirable. Knives may be relatively simple tools, they rend materials, and that is about it. But, there is still a lot that is complexed about them. They need to properly fit the user's hand, they need to have the right geometry to effectively cut whatever they are intended to cut, they need to be properly weighted and balanced for the task, and they need to be made of the right materials and structure - less they fail. They can be embellished as well, but at least to me soundness comes first.
n2s
I believe art is a creation that conveys the feelings of the maker and those feelings are understood by the person experiencing the art.
Some art is square and angular, some flows like a wave.
Some art is colorful, some is monochromatic.
Some art is useful and some is useless.
Some art is plain and some is busy.
Some art is square and angular, some flows like a wave.
Some art is colorful, some is monochromatic.
Some art is useful and some is useless.
Some art is plain and some is busy.
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Sorry for the late reply. To the homeless man, the painting may very well only be a blanket and not art, depending on his perception of the object.
Not relating to your comment specifically Paul but the trap that is easily stepped in with this issue is that you put too much emphasis of the intention of the maker into account, It's not unimportant, but not definite either.
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Most things I see as artistically-made have had extra effort put into them that's not "technically" necessary, but is added to give a flourish, to convey feelings and give rise to emotion, contemplation, inspiration. When masterfully accomplished, this can also emanate from purely functional design itself, which can be seen as art, as
PDQ knives
said he sees in perfectly machined bearings and machine parts. Many see fine watches as mechanical art.
An artist often takes this application of extra effort way beyond the necessary, and hopefully tries to cultivate mastery in attempt to make a vision into something real. Most probably hope their finished work brings to others the feelings that drove the creation in the first place. In the OP's case, it's not about making a ceramic piece that simply functions, it's about making a beautiful, interesting ceramic piece that functions perfectly. I used to have a hand-made coffee cup that looked really neat, and the form made drinking coffee a much better experience. It had the perfect handle, with a little thumb tab for stability. A thick round lip. A stable, wide bottom. And it was crooked, like it had slumped while it was baking. It was the perfect size. If you knew how much I spill and slop coffee everywhere you'd understand how much I liked that slop-proof mug.
That's what I think the best art is, in a knife or otherwise: the nexus of perfect form, function, and proportion, masterfully executed, often with imperfections or irregularities. Beyond simply necessity and functionality, and beyond just looks, impossible to exist without a lot of extra effort applied simply to bring it beyond the former.
@JParanee 's examples are perfect. The armor in particular, both Japanese and European, is an intense crossing of form, function, and countless man-hours of flourish created just to give an impression.
Here is a really simple example of what I mean:
The St. John's Bridge in Portland, is just a suspension bridge - a simple one. There are lots of old riveted steel bridges in the NW, and I consider just the construction alone as artfully-done. However, the builders often added a lot more steel and shape to the bridges for no other reason than it looks cool, and doesn't impede functionality (I think that part is usually important in good art, and it seems the vast majority of art is functional).
The Gothic-looking towers don't need to be like that. The concrete bases could simply be rectangles. A lot of unnecessary extra effort and expense was put into making the bridge look like this, just to make an impression. It turns the bridge from just a bridge, into functional art, within the bounds of what the builders had to work with. I think it was well worth it, and feel the same way about knives.
Some say that the beauty or lack thereof in all things and all art is subjective. I disagree, and say there is such a thing as bad art. A lot of extra effort can be put into making something demonstrably ugly and dumb. Is the St. John's bridge beautiful, ugly, cool, or something else? That's in the eye of the beholder, but it's definitely art.
I also rarely see knives or other things that are designed purely around manufacturing efficiency that I would consider art.
Here's another, more recent bridge in Portland: The Tilikum Bridge.
This is not art. It's simply a functional bridge. Is it beautiful? Ugly? Something else? That's in the eye of the beholder, but it's definitely not art.
PDQ knives
said he sees in perfectly machined bearings and machine parts. Many see fine watches as mechanical art.An artist often takes this application of extra effort way beyond the necessary, and hopefully tries to cultivate mastery in attempt to make a vision into something real. Most probably hope their finished work brings to others the feelings that drove the creation in the first place. In the OP's case, it's not about making a ceramic piece that simply functions, it's about making a beautiful, interesting ceramic piece that functions perfectly. I used to have a hand-made coffee cup that looked really neat, and the form made drinking coffee a much better experience. It had the perfect handle, with a little thumb tab for stability. A thick round lip. A stable, wide bottom. And it was crooked, like it had slumped while it was baking. It was the perfect size. If you knew how much I spill and slop coffee everywhere you'd understand how much I liked that slop-proof mug.
That's what I think the best art is, in a knife or otherwise: the nexus of perfect form, function, and proportion, masterfully executed, often with imperfections or irregularities. Beyond simply necessity and functionality, and beyond just looks, impossible to exist without a lot of extra effort applied simply to bring it beyond the former.
@JParanee 's examples are perfect. The armor in particular, both Japanese and European, is an intense crossing of form, function, and countless man-hours of flourish created just to give an impression.
Here is a really simple example of what I mean:
The St. John's Bridge in Portland, is just a suspension bridge - a simple one. There are lots of old riveted steel bridges in the NW, and I consider just the construction alone as artfully-done. However, the builders often added a lot more steel and shape to the bridges for no other reason than it looks cool, and doesn't impede functionality (I think that part is usually important in good art, and it seems the vast majority of art is functional).
The Gothic-looking towers don't need to be like that. The concrete bases could simply be rectangles. A lot of unnecessary extra effort and expense was put into making the bridge look like this, just to make an impression. It turns the bridge from just a bridge, into functional art, within the bounds of what the builders had to work with. I think it was well worth it, and feel the same way about knives.
Some say that the beauty or lack thereof in all things and all art is subjective. I disagree, and say there is such a thing as bad art. A lot of extra effort can be put into making something demonstrably ugly and dumb. Is the St. John's bridge beautiful, ugly, cool, or something else? That's in the eye of the beholder, but it's definitely art.
I also rarely see knives or other things that are designed purely around manufacturing efficiency that I would consider art.
Here's another, more recent bridge in Portland: The Tilikum Bridge.
This is not art. It's simply a functional bridge. Is it beautiful? Ugly? Something else? That's in the eye of the beholder, but it's definitely not art.
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^^ What a well-thought-out and articulate statement
Mecha
!
The bottom bridge, although lacking 'flourish' beyone function has a pure simplicity about it's form which is similar to that in nature: the least amount of parts to make something perfectly functional. That bridge reminds me of a bird's wing skeleton. Nothing more but the essentials. tapered columns reduce weight and the intentionally curved slab base does it without fanfare.
Nature has/is art, I'm certain we can agree.
Great addition! I have never seen that St. John's bridge. Wow.
Mecha
!The bottom bridge, although lacking 'flourish' beyone function has a pure simplicity about it's form which is similar to that in nature: the least amount of parts to make something perfectly functional. That bridge reminds me of a bird's wing skeleton. Nothing more but the essentials. tapered columns reduce weight and the intentionally curved slab base does it without fanfare.
Nature has/is art, I'm certain we can agree.
Great addition! I have never seen that St. John's bridge. Wow.
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^^ What a well-thought-out and articulate statement
The bottom bridge, although lacking 'flourish' beyone function has a pure simplicity about it's form which is similar to that in nature: the least amount of parts to make something perfectly functional. That bridge reminds me of a bird's wing skeleton. Nothing more but the essentials. tapered columns reduce weight and the intentionally curved slab base does it without fanfare.
Nature has/is art, I'm certain we can agree.
Great addition! I have never seen that St. John's bridge. Wow.
Thanks Coop! The subject of art really must be the biggest, blurriest gray zone of discussion ever. The second bridge, it looks really cool in person, and many consider it a beautiful piece of construction. I bet a lot of people would say it looks better than the St. John's bridge. The opinion on looks is certainly subjective.
The difference is that the Tilikum bridge looks that way because it was an efficient, simple way to make a bridge that works, and nothing more, while the St. John's bridge looks like it does because the builders went beyond function to do extra design work in order to create a specific "look and feel" with their media of steel and concrete.
Nature, it seems, reigns as the greatest of artists. In the world of blades, my favorite pieces look and feel natural. That is, they don't seem forced or strained. Rather than disconcerting or jarring to the mind, they offer fluidity and lucidity. Either result can come from a piece that may be the most simple, to incredibly ornate. In art, complexity certainly doesn't mean "good," any more than simplicity is "bad."
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Maybe I should have put this differently.
I don't want to know what art is...I have a degree in that shit.
As a ceramic artist/potter I could make a hundred bowls but is it all art?
For me, no. I grind them out and every once in a while I gotta stop and look at the stuff that comes out of the kiln and say 'holy shit! that's art!'
For the most part I'm just making stuff!
Again, every once in a while (well I'd like to think it happens more than that, but I'm realistic!) I'll make something special. Sometimes it's intentional (as art should be) but I'll admit, sometimes it just happens.
Like a knife maker, I have to be aware that what I make is supposed to be functional. Most of my art is not:
I make a conscious decision to make my work non functional and more of a work of 'art.'
As a knifemaker, where do you cross that line?
Could be all your work is 'art.'
Do you make a conscious decision that say, this one is going to make a statement!
Following the for sale forum, it seems that there is a certain level of fit and finish most makers follow. What I mean is, most makers have a style that they don't deviate from often. It's all art to me seeing as how I don't make knives (one day!).
When is it not just something you make but something you consider art?
What goes into it? Is it something extra you do?
Better yet, when you look at other knives, what do you consider art?
For some knives, it's obvious. For other knives, the reasons you, the maker, consider art may be more subtle.
Yes, everyone's eyeballs is different and art is subject to our own individual experiences; put that aside for now and tell me what makes a knife more than a just a knife.
By the way, because of my training I can't help but notice very small things going on with design and composition. As a maker of things, I can't help but notice small things that have to do with fabrication. Now that I'm into more handmade and custom work, I'm starting to see things in knife making that I never noticed before or just took for granted. Some of the grind work I see, like wow truly high levels of skill and to me, works of art. On the other hand, I also see a lot of design fail. The good with the bad!
I don't want to know what art is...I have a degree in that shit.
As a ceramic artist/potter I could make a hundred bowls but is it all art?
For me, no. I grind them out and every once in a while I gotta stop and look at the stuff that comes out of the kiln and say 'holy shit! that's art!'
For the most part I'm just making stuff!
Again, every once in a while (well I'd like to think it happens more than that, but I'm realistic!) I'll make something special. Sometimes it's intentional (as art should be) but I'll admit, sometimes it just happens.
Like a knife maker, I have to be aware that what I make is supposed to be functional. Most of my art is not:
I make a conscious decision to make my work non functional and more of a work of 'art.'
As a knifemaker, where do you cross that line?
Could be all your work is 'art.'
Do you make a conscious decision that say, this one is going to make a statement!
Following the for sale forum, it seems that there is a certain level of fit and finish most makers follow. What I mean is, most makers have a style that they don't deviate from often. It's all art to me seeing as how I don't make knives (one day!).
When is it not just something you make but something you consider art?
What goes into it? Is it something extra you do?
Better yet, when you look at other knives, what do you consider art?
For some knives, it's obvious. For other knives, the reasons you, the maker, consider art may be more subtle.
Yes, everyone's eyeballs is different and art is subject to our own individual experiences; put that aside for now and tell me what makes a knife more than a just a knife.
By the way, because of my training I can't help but notice very small things going on with design and composition. As a maker of things, I can't help but notice small things that have to do with fabrication. Now that I'm into more handmade and custom work, I'm starting to see things in knife making that I never noticed before or just took for granted. Some of the grind work I see, like wow truly high levels of skill and to me, works of art. On the other hand, I also see a lot of design fail. The good with the bad!
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one of the knifemakers I've discovered recently, who talks about knives as art pretty regularly is Geoff Feder. Conveniently, he has a podcast for makers called The Full Blast Podcast @thefullblastpodcast and is one of 3 hosts of the Knife Talk Podcast @knifetalkpodcast which also discusses the Art behind the making of cutlery pretty regularly
I dropped out of art school, so I'm not really qualified to opine. I don't usually let that stop me, though
I dropped out of art school, so I'm not really qualified to opine. I don't usually let that stop me, though
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Most things I see as artistically-made have had extra effort put into them that's not "technically" necessary, but is added to give a flourish, to convey feelings and give rise to emotion, contemplation, inspiration. When masterfully accomplished, this can also emanate from purely functional design itself, which can be seen as art, as
That's what I think the best art is, in a knife or otherwise: the nexus of perfect form, function, and proportion, masterfully executed, often with imperfections or irregularities. Beyond simply necessity and functionality, and beyond just looks, impossible to exist without a lot of extra effort applied simply to bring it beyond the former.
Can't you find art in simplicity also? Something so simple and basic that it becomes art? I see some knife designs that are so face palm why didn't I think of that elegant! I'm a minimalist so that's where I'm coming from. I'm also sort of a Bauhaus form and function fan.
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one of the knifemakers I've discovered recently, who talks about knives as art pretty regularly is Geoff Feder. Conveniently, he has a podcast for makers called The Full Blast Podcast @thefullblastpodcast and is one of 3 hosts of the Knife Talk Podcast @knifetalkpodcast which also discusses the Art behind the making of cutlery pretty regularly
I dropped out of art school, so I'm not really qualified to opine. I don't usually let that stop me, though
I'll check that out!
I don't get to talk about art too much; I teach high school...