What qualities make a good machete???

[FortyTwoBlades]

why I mention it at all is the OP bought a machete , had a whack at stuff with it and it sucked more or less . I have seen people using my tools that I know are sharp and work well ( for me at least ) , have similar results , not because the tools suck but because the operator had not spent the time to get familiar with them or learn how to use them .

This is exactly my experience with people who deride American pattern scythes. The tool is often dull, but even when properly sharp people don't know how to use it worth a damn and then complain that it doesn't work. Yes it does, silly!

 

[Thundermtn]

Hey everyone I'm new here so don't be to rough on me. I came here for tips on some different subject matter but when I saw this I had to chime in. I am a land surveyor by trade. I have a machete in my hand 4 hours a day from May through September. I have used a lot of different shapes and weights and for what the op is going to use it for a compromise is needed. The two tasks are not accomplished easily with the same blade but a modified type of cut will get these jobs done. My daily use is almost exactly what he described and the best I've used for those tasks is something close to the shape of a Martindale 23W, with a full tang.

Tip speed is all that matters for light whippy stuff like blackberry and multiflora rose b/c the low mass of what your cutting it will move away from anything but a razor sharp slower blade. A relatively light weight, long blade is needed to get the speed. Weight will hurt you here b/c you just can't get it up to speed as easily. Depending on how long the job will take light weight is the best way to keep your arms fresh and speed up over a long time span. All cuts should be made with the belly of the blade within about 2 inches of the tip. I would go 22" or even 24" for just this task just to keep yourself away from the thorns. This will help make sure that what doesn't get cut will not get caught and rake you across the face, esp. if you have to get in thick tangle to get the work done. For processing wood it depends on the size of what you want to cut. A 22" will be better here b/c it is stiffer in the hand (less vibration). The belly of this is useless for wood cutting. The 4-5" down from it will be the most efficient and still have enough energy from a heavier tip profile to make good cuts. You'll have to make the cuts in almost all 45 degree angles though and unless it is smaller diameter and can be bent or pre-loaded safely by hand it will be slower than a lot of other tools. Basically for every inch over 6 that you cut, it will take about twice as long as the same cut would with an axe.

Anyway, a full tang, mill-file sharpenable carbon steel blade, that's 22-24" long, relatively light with a weight forward tip is the way I would go.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Hey everyone I'm new here so don't be to rough on me. I came here for tips on some different subject matter but when I saw this I had to chime in. I am a land surveyor by trade. I have a machete in my hand 4 hours a day from May through September. I have used a lot of different shapes and weights and for what the op is going to use it for a compromise is needed. The two tasks are not accomplished easily with the same blade but a modified type of cut will get these jobs done. My daily use is almost exactly what he described and the best I've used for those tasks is something close to the shape of a Martindale 23W, with a full tang.

Tip speed is all that matters for light whippy stuff like blackberry and multiflora rose b/c the low mass of what your cutting it will move away from anything but a razor sharp slower blade. A relatively light weight, long blade is needed to get the speed. Weight will hurt you here b/c you just can't get it up to speed as easily. Depending on how long the job will take light weight is the best way to keep your arms fresh and speed up over a long time span. All cuts should be made with the belly of the blade within about 2 inches of the tip. I would go 22" or even 24" for just this task just to keep yourself away from the thorns. This will help make sure that what doesn't get cut will not get caught and rake you across the face, esp. if you have to get in thick tangle to get the work done. For processing wood it depends on the size of what you want to cut. A 22" will be better here b/c it is stiffer in the hand (less vibration). The belly of this is useless for wood cutting. The 4-5" down from it will be the most efficient and still have enough energy from a heavier tip profile to make good cuts. You'll have to make the cuts in almost all 45 degree angles though and unless it is smaller diameter and can be bent or pre-loaded safely by hand it will be slower than a lot of other tools. Basically for every inch over 6 that you cut, it will take about twice as long as the same cut would with an axe.

Anyway, a full tang, mill-file sharpenable carbon steel blade, that's 22-24" long, relatively light with a weight forward tip is the way I would go.

I agree 100% with your observations. However, I think at that length you'd be sacrificing too much rigidity for proper wood processing like the OP's second major requirement stated. For a dedicated bramble cutter that's also able to handle up to wrist-sized branches, the 22"-24" #23W would be a great choice though. :thumbup:

 

[atomicjoe23]

I could be totally at blame for technique (and probably am), but I was using what looks to be the same machete I had as a kid with the same technique and it totally sucked. . .it didn't get stuck; it just totally bounced off of everything!!!

Anyway, I'm trying to get caught up on my back log of active projects so that I can get busy on some new ones. . .I will update when I get a chance to start working on this.

Thanks again for all the tips!

 

[Thundermtn]

I don't know much about how blades are finished. One piece of advise about making one would be to make sure that the blade will not be brittle when it's finished. Twice in my life I have busted machete blades. Both times it was about 3 inches up from the handle while I was having to swing very hard to get through dead and dry very hard trees limbs. The last thing you want is to have one break during a full power swing. Especially if there will be other people working close to you like at a campsite or on a work crew. There is no telling where it will go and is one of the most frightening/dangerous experiences you can have with a machete. Make sure you're wearing a steel-toed boot too b/c if you use it long enough, even if you're good with a machete, a boot strike IS going to happen!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

As far as heat treatment goes the folks at Peters' Heat Treat have a specialist blade department. They did the work on my Oberst and Baryonyx prototypes and they did a GREAT job with them.

 

[atomicjoe23]

Lucky for me I have access to heat treat facilities and can do the heat treat myself. . .I heat treat parts almost every day at work. . .it's a LOT of fun!

Thanks again for the tips. . .I'm checking out the Martingdale 23W now.

 

[PayetteRucker]

This is exactly my experience with people who deride American pattern scythes. The tool is often dull, but even when properly sharp people don't know how to use it worth a damn and then complain that it doesn't work. Yes it does, silly!

Even in The Scythe Song by Dougie Maclean, "It's not the kind of thing to learn inside a day."

Hey everyone I'm new here so don't be to rough on me. I came here for tips on some different subject matter but when I saw this I had to chime in. I am a land surveyor by trade. I have a machete in my hand 4 hours a day from May through September. I have used a lot of different shapes and weights and for what the op is going to use it for a compromise is needed. The two tasks are not accomplished easily with the same blade but a modified type of cut will get these jobs done. My daily use is almost exactly what he described and the best I've used for those tasks is something close to the shape of a Martindale 23W, with a full tang.

Tip speed is all that matters for light whippy stuff like blackberry and multiflora rose b/c the low mass of what your cutting it will move away from anything but a razor sharp slower blade. A relatively light weight, long blade is needed to get the speed. Weight will hurt you here b/c you just can't get it up to speed as easily. Depending on how long the job will take light weight is the best way to keep your arms fresh and speed up over a long time span. All cuts should be made with the belly of the blade within about 2 inches of the tip. I would go 22" or even 24" for just this task just to keep yourself away from the thorns. This will help make sure that what doesn't get cut will not get caught and rake you across the face, esp. if you have to get in thick tangle to get the work done. For processing wood it depends on the size of what you want to cut. A 22" will be better here b/c it is stiffer in the hand (less vibration). The belly of this is useless for wood cutting. The 4-5" down from it will be the most efficient and still have enough energy from a heavier tip profile to make good cuts. You'll have to make the cuts in almost all 45 degree angles though and unless it is smaller diameter and can be bent or pre-loaded safely by hand it will be slower than a lot of other tools. Basically for every inch over 6 that you cut, it will take about twice as long as the same cut would with an axe.

Anyway, a full tang, mill-file sharpenable carbon steel blade, that's 22-24" long, relatively light with a weight forward tip is the way I would go.

Speed and control of the edge completely in line with the direction of your swing on the light green stuff. Undoubtedly, as long as you can control it, the longer the blade the better. After spending week after week in Florida running combat drills in the swamps, I can tell you that sometimes fighting thick brush that likes to get tangled while you swing an 18, 20, 22 inch machete, it just isn't worth it-a short controlled designated thwack with a little 12 or 14 incher can be more effective, less hassle. Of course that's one particular instance in a tropical/subtropical climate where the vegitation grows thick and tall, and there's lots of hangy stuff all over the place. And you're 150% right that skill is as important, if not more, than the tool.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Even in The Scythe Song by Dougie Maclean, "It's not the kind of thing to learn inside a day."

You got that right! Same goes for any non-electric tool, really, but some more than others and the serious clearing or harvesting tools (scythe, machete, sickle, etc) belong in one of the more advanced classes.

 

[Thundermtn]

Speed and control of the edge completely in line with the direction of your swing on the light green stuff. Undoubtedly, as long as you can control it, the longer the blade the better. After spending week after week in Florida running combat drills in the swamps, I can tell you that sometimes fighting thick brush that likes to get tangled while you swing an 18, 20, 22 inch machete, it just isn't worth it-a short controlled designated thwack with a little 12 or 14 incher can be more effective, less hassle. Of course that's one particular instance in a tropical/subtropical climate where the vegitation grows thick and tall, and there's lots of hangy stuff all over the place. And you're 150% right that skill is as important, if not more, than the tool.

Skill counts for a lot! My first year on the crew the called me lightning. You know, "never hits the same spot twice". It looked like there was a wood chipper under every tree I had to down, with everyone else it was 2-3 swings and it's down without a single chip.

As for how long it should be really comes down to personal preference. Just for clearing a walking trail where you can move the easiest and quietly where the forest guides you the shorter one would be better. I can't really see a 12-14" machete being the best tool for clearing a blackberry thicket by hand though. For that personally I use a Steel FS350 Brushcutter with a 3 point blade. If a person were to use a short machete though it would have obstacles to overcome. You'd have to get your face, arms, and eyes closer to the thorns from the reduced reach, less tip speed means more swings once it starts to dull, and you'll have to spend much more time bent over 90° at the waist swinging to make cuts at the base of the stalks 3-5" off the ground. I use mine with the same theory as an axe and always prepare a cleared back swing, so initially that will take a few extra seconds but once I'm going it's not an issue. If I have to make a straight line (in some cases a brush tunnel) through a 1/2 mile of god know what will be in the way I would want more length if anything else b/c I'll have more blade. When one section gets dull you just move your swing out 2" and you have a fresh edge. You can only do that twice with a 14" before you're clearing trails with a knife length tool unless you have a sharpener/file on your person.

In most of the rest of the world where a machete is an everyday-everything tool and the 20" is the very popular. When I was in Jamaica a lot of people had them on their person and they where in heavy use for a lot of daily tasks. Approx. 80% were around 20". I brought home one of them, a 20" Falcon W702 in a hand carved wooden back release sheath with a handle protector that keeps brush from pulling the machete out when you're walking. Really inexpensive there but they seemed to be the most popular.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I think that a double-edged billhook would be an excellent tool when you need a short machete-like tool to handle dense underbrush. They're traditionally used for hedging and other similar tasks so it's ideally suited to that particular circumstance.

 

[atomicjoe23]

I didn't even think of a billhook!

 

[Square_peg]

I live in the Pacific NW so there are a TON of blackberry bushes and scotch broom out here so I want to be able to cut through the thin, lithe vines of blackberry and scotch broom as well as cut through the thick, woody blackberry vines and then do some general camp chopping (splitting large sections of firewood into kindling, cutting fallen branches into more manageable sections, etc.)

Hi, Joe. I'm fairly new to these forums but I also live in the PNW and I do a lot of blackberry whacking with a machete. I use them to clear property lines and set lot corners in construction. I also do a lot of volunteer habitat restoration work which often involves whacking blackberries. I also do some volunteer trail maintenance work - both organized and on my own. My machetes see a ton of work.

You don't need anything fancy to clear blackberries. Your local hardware store will probably have what you need so long as you have the ability to sharpen it to a razor's edge.

Hardware store machetes will most likely be made in either China or Colombia. You want one made in Colombia. They actually use machetes down there. The steel will be better and the fit & finish will be better. Buy one that feels comfortable in your hand don't be shy about cleaning up or smoothing out the handle with a file (reduces blisters).

If you're working for any length of time with your machete or more importantly working around other people then please be sure to add a wrist strap to your machete. At some point you'll loosen your grip for a moment it the thing will go flying. Don't let it injure yourself, your pet or other people working around you. USE A WRIST STRAP!

When cutting blackberries slice through the stem at a 45° or sharper angle. A 90° angle to the stalk will just bend the stem instead of cutting it. When cutting scotch broom use an even steeper angle. Better yet - if you're trying to get rid of the scotch broom then just pull them with a weed wrench (google it). They pull a lot easier than they chop.

Another member wrote, "A long thin machete is great for swinging all day, but a shorter stout blades are just so tough."

For blackberry and scotch broom whacking you need the long thin blade. Minimum length is 18". I used to have a 14" and it could do some work but it was limited. However it was handy to hang on the belt and made a good trail companion. A friend liked that blade so I gave it to her.

My current users are an 18", a 20" and a 22". None of them are pretty, these are users. The 18" is the one I'll choose for bopping down the trail clearing things as necessary. But for cleaning out a blackberry bramble I choose the 22" every time. As you're working a bramble you're clearing a sphere around yourself as you go. The sphere of a 22" is naturally wider than the sphere of an 18". The blackberries will catch your clothing and flesh less often with the 22".

Speed and sharpness are the two keys to blackberry whacking. Learn to swing fast. A swift blow can take a 1-1/2" alder sapling in a single blow, or take a man's wrist just as easily.

I probably don't need to tell you to wear leather gloves and heavy clothing.

Here are my current users.

 

[Square_peg]

The handles of the 18" and the 20" are most comfortable. I'd replace the 22" if I found a 22" with a handle like the others. The 20" is an estate sale special. The over length sheath and hand guard came with it. The 18" gets the most trail use and the 22" does the most blackberry bramble bashing.

The 18" and 22" sheaths are home made. I value utility far more than appearance. To each their own.

 

[atomicjoe23]

Thanks Square_Peg, it's good to hear from somebody local who knows exactly what I'm dealing with and has first-hand experience with our PNW blackberries and scotch broom!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yup! Longer and lighter is the way to go when dealing with the light stuff. You can get by with something shorter/thicker if you have to, but it's going to be a comparatively painful process.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Ok--here's a super quick sketch. Point pretty much in line with the center of the grip for good control, forward guard integrated to form a natural choil without loss of edge length, good sweet spot with a mezzo-balance and fast tip. Approximate 18" blade length.

View attachment 254953

In almost all cases the widest point WILL be the sweet spot. The region with the highest concentration of mass will soak up vibration and become a primary node in any vibrational waves. The sweet spot, or center of percussion, is the spot on the blade where the most energy is transmitted to the blow without being lost as shock or vibration.

The sweet spot is further down on the blade than I'd normally want, also, but given the design requirements it makes the most sense to me at least. The main point of the thin tip at the very end is for the vines and brambles--which have thorns! ... For more general use, though, having the sweet spot as close to the tip as is realistic is the way to go!

Yeah that makes sense. One thing is for sure, when it comes to slashing thorny woody or semi-woody plants, you're going to want precision and blade length that draws easily across the vines. That means V grind and belly, belly, belly. The most amount of edge you can put across the material in the smallest swing-that's why I figured having that defined belly at the end made sense. The barong certainly makes the most of its blade length as well.

Tip speed is all that matters for light whippy stuff like blackberry and multiflora rose b/c the low mass of what your cutting it will move away from anything but a razor sharp slower blade. ... All cuts should be made with the belly of the blade within about 2 inches of the tip. ... For processing wood it depends on the size of what you want to cut. ... The belly of this is useless for wood cutting. The 4-5" down from it will be the most efficient and still have enough energy from a heavier tip profile to make good cuts.

I have a 16" Imacasa 127 classic machete that I want to use for brambles. (I will use my 22" when practical but this is the longest blade that will fit in my day pack.)

Regarding the design and use of the belly of the blade T Thundermtn recommended that for canes "All cuts should be made with the belly of the blade within about 2 inches of the tip." I haven't made good use of the last two inches of the Classic profile, usually striking somewhat behind that. What is the optimal belly design for this kind of work? Looking at established designs I see a trend of short and deep belly with blades indented for deep penetration: Pack Golok, Rozador, Burriquito, bolo. Light machetes that I believe are optimized for non-woody targets typically have a long and shallow belly: Colima, Guarizama, Sable. The sketch from FortyTwoBlades also has long and gradual belly. Is the steep belly mostly about shifting the center of percussion forward?

Will lengthening and flattening the belly on my 127 Classic improve its performance on springy targets? There is an Imacasa that comes like this, the 152 PC, and it looks kind of like the sketch without the drop point. I have not seen it for sale in the US and it only comes in 18" and longer however. It seems a rather extreme design with a fragile looking tip, which the sketch design avoids. Regarding that sketch he wrote "Point pretty much in line with the center of the grip for good control." What does this mean, and why do Latin machetes have a swept point rather than a drop?

If I start with the 127-16 profile (in gray) and conservatively move in the direction of the sketch I come up with something like this profile in gold. My hope is that it would lengthen the draw-cut strike area, increase tip speed, and reduce the tendency for canes to slide off the tip before they are cut through, while retaining most of the original chopping ability. What do you think?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Probably could have started a fresh thread for this since the last post was in 2012!

The belly on that 10-year-old sketch was specifically because the fellow was looking to combine BOTH heavy woody chopping AND bramble uses, which is difficult to optimize for. The sweet spot for wood chopping is actually further back on it than would be typical of chopping designs but it's to shift the point of balance towards the hand so that you can still accelerate the tip up to requisite speed while having a region of the blade that can still chop heavy woody targets well. This also flattens the curve near the tip so it's less "slippy".

A swept point "carries through" strikes better than other types and to some degree helps shield the tip itself from some hard impacts, among other things that are a little more nebulous to describe, and helps with hooking cut targets to toss them into a pile.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

FortyTwoBlades is it preferable to start a new post? My questions fit well here. I want this machete to handle woody targets too though not heavy ones. Does what I drew have merit or did I misunderstand the elements of your sketch? It's not a radical change but "less slippy" and faster flicks seem appealing.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Generally if the post is more than a couple years old or wasn't a major tentpole of discussion the convention is to start a fresh thread.

Your modification would not make a meaningful difference in this case compared to the original form. You would not get faster flicks out of it, as the length has a lot to do with the tip velocity, and you'd be reducing that, and you'd be loosing some of the security of the hook of the spine when it comes to using it as an extension of your arm for grabbing and tossing cut material. I'd be more likely to suggest just putting a partial back edge on the point if you run into any issues with slipping but otherwise leaving it. Optimization with designing from the ground up is different from cutting down existing designs in that you have much more freedom about how you distribute the mass. The 127 is a very light model and reducing its length and total mass is not going to help it chop woody targets at all.