What's with the sniveling about CRK's S30V hardness?

If I wanted to snivel (nice word choice), I'd snivel about S30V rather than how CRK hardens it. I used to think the comments here about S30V were, well, "sniveling," until I bought a BG-42 Seb. Now I snivel with the best of them, but it's the steel, not the heat treat.
 
gundude73 said:
i think the malleability is one of the strong suits
for example Zyhano's umnumzaan had a bent tip and he just bent it back to shape. not too many other S30V's could do that.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=746005
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Yeah, that was a surprise and a good thing too..
Btw, about the sharpening, I strop up my CRK's a lot and if you don't let them get dull, stropping is an easy way to fix 'm. It also avoids the problem of wire edges as Harry said. I guess Nyef does his touchups frequently, thereby avoiding the major hassle of a long sharpening process, which s30V is known for. I'm beginning to understand the complaints about s30V as JNewell means...
OTOH, I found that my dmt sharpening tools are very quick when dealing with s30V, a lot faster than a sharpmaker IMO.
 
I personally like S30V at RC 60-61. It performs better for me at this hardness. In fact, it seems like a totally different steel than it does at RC 58.

I use it differently from other users, admittedly. I will never pry, or twist out of a cut. I try to always match the right tool for the job, when possible. In a true emergency, I wouldn't care if damage occured.

The problems I've had with S30V weren't due to brittleness but were more how the knife was prepared and finished edge wise.

I do like BG 42 better, but I won't say it outperforms S30V especially when S30V is run where I like it.

Knowing Chris, he has tested S30V from 50RC to 70RC and has found the current RC to bring out the best qualities in the steel.
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Chris, nor anybody else has tested S30V anywhere near RC 70. If they temper the steel, the best custom makers with the best equipment making one blade at a time struggle to get the steel above RC 61. That's about it's realistic limit.

And that's where I like it too. If I was a production company with a warranty I'd run it at RC 58-59 . Best performance wouldn't be the reason though.
 
You asked, so I will answer. I was not at all impressed with the performance of my small sebenza. I sharpened it to the same edge angle and finish as similar-sized S30V blades from several other makers, and it was not even in the same class when it came to edgeholding. Why pay for a premium steel if it doesn't act like a premium steel? I sent it to Paul Bos for a better heat treat, and it made a huge difference.
 
To answer you question in the title in a apropriate suiting manner- Uh let me think... Maybe because people are having problems with it... Duh.

Doesn't take a rocket science to figure that out. Do you ever hear people complaining as much about any other company's HT of their steels? I know I don't. I don't need anymore proof than what I've seen with my own eyes to know their BG42 60-61 outperforms their S30V 58-59.

I also sent it one of my Mnandi blades to BOS after hearing about it from the fellow who posted right before me and while it doesn't perform as well as the BG42 it does perform much better now and no rolled edges yet.
 
"To answer you question in the title in a apropriate suiting manner- Uh let me think... Maybe because people are having problems with it... Duh."

Again, the tone of the question was a bit insensitive... sorry.
I'll now accept my virtual spanking and go work on my people skills.
What does it generally cost to have a decent heat treating job?
 
Snivelers may be in good company. Of those members responding to a resent survey, conducted on this forum, 91 out of the 137 respondents indicated that they would like the S30v hardened to at least 59 RC or would prefer the old BG 42 blade, (which was hardened to 60-61 Rc). http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724018&highlight=chip

Perhaps those who voiced opinions that they were not totally thrilled with the ATS34 bladed orgionals were also viewed as snivelers. A review of the Sebenza manufacturing time line indicates that SOMEONE was not TOTALLY satisfied with the then current knife. The Sebenza has a history of ongoing modification, from the hand made clipless originals, through changes to the frame, washers, pocket clip, blade, steel, profile, manufacturing process and dimensions. It is apparent that Chris Reeve is open to changes in the many aspects of his Sebenza in both material and specifications.

A quote from this interview:

http://www.knivesshipfree.com/ksfinfo/Newsletter/Chris_Reeve.html

“I constantly remind our people that even though we’re at the top of our game, we can’t rest on our laurels. We can’t relax for any reason whatsoever,” Reeve insists. “The next customer is entitled to the same quality as the last customer -- if not better, because we’ve learned something.”
Awards and accolades, like those lavished on the benchmark Sebenza folder over the last 22 years, only serve to “give us the impetus to keep going at this.”

“Our knives are never finished.” ~ Chris Reeve ---------------- OldDude1
 
Well, I gotta wonder if maybe Chris knows better than most, but I wouldn't know.
I'm supposed to be a fancy, dancy boat woodworker and I can't tell you how many times our clients have adamantly demanded that some things should be done a certain way even when they don't know that they don't know what they're talking about.
I apprenticed under a meticulous Swedish psychotic shipwright that is at the top of the game. Many people think that he does some things dead wrong but they don't even understand what he's doing. He clearly delivers the best product in this area in every way. He has no competition.

Again, I don't know, but maybe it's something along these lines.
And please don't get too miffy at the sniveling thing, consider the source.

me - clueless guy that's just fishing for a clue
 
I really find this thread strange-to-impossible to believe that the comments contain actual unbiased research.

cpm-s30v knives I've owned:

Strider SnG (times three)
Strider PT-CC
Strider RCC
Strider WP Spearpoint
Spyderco Native
Spyderco Military
Spyderco Para Military
Spyderco UKPK
Benchmade 940
Benchmade Mini Dejavoo
CRK Sm. "reg" Sebenza (times three)
CRK Lg. "reg" Sebenza (times four)
CRK Lg. "21" Sebenza
CRK Mnandi (times two)
CRK Green Beret 5.5"

Well... that's what I can rememner anyhoo... so that's 23 knives in s30v from different makers and I have used them ALL. I have sharpened them ALL. The only ones that hold an edge longer are the Striders and the Benchmade 940... but the trade off is seriously obvious. They are easily more difficult to sharpen.

There is no doubt in my mind CRK HTs S30V better than anyone else for what I want in a knife. My first Seb, which I EDCd for four years, was BG42. I feel that s30v was an improvement so much that I had no remorse in selling my beloved "first" seb.

I prefer a better trade off between edge retention and difficulty of sharpening. I like the idea of a slightly lower HT offering more durability. Remember, this knife is a "work" knife. It is one of the best at it! I can understand wanting a very hard HT in an extremely difficult to sharpen in a kitchen knife since it should never encounter anything harder than the steel. But in my uses, I have, more than a few times, slipped and smacked my knives against objects which will chip or roll ANY edge. I prefer a roll over a chip and either way... I WANT MY EDGE BACK!
 
archieblue said:
I really find this thread strange-to-impossible to believe that the comments contain actual unbiased research.

cpm-s30v knives I've owned:

Strider SnG (times three)
Strider PT-CC
Strider RCC
Strider WP Spearpoint
Spyderco Native
Spyderco Military
Spyderco Para Military
Spyderco UKPK
Benchmade 940
Benchmade Mini Dejavoo
CRK Sm. "reg" Sebenza (times three)
CRK Lg. "reg" Sebenza (times four)
CRK Lg. "21" Sebenza
CRK Mnandi (times two)
CRK Green Beret 5.5"

Well... that's what I can rememner anyhoo... so that's 23 knives in s30v from different makers and I have used them ALL. I have sharpened them ALL. The only ones that hold an edge longer are the Striders and the Benchmade 940... but the trade off is seriously obvious. They are easily more difficult to sharpen.

There is no doubt in my mind CRK HTs S30V better than anyone else for what I want in a knife. My first Seb, which I EDCd for four years, was BG42. I feel that s30v was an improvement so much that I had no remorse in selling my beloved "first" seb.

I prefer a better trade off between edge retention and difficulty of sharpening. I like the idea of a slightly lower HT offering more durability. Remember, this knife is a "work" knife. It is one of the best at it! I can understand wanting a very hard HT in an extremely difficult to sharpen in a kitchen knife since it should never encounter anything harder than the steel. But in my uses, I have, more than a few times, slipped and smacked my knives against objects which will chip or roll ANY edge. I prefer a roll over a chip and either way... I WANT MY EDGE BACK!
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+1:thumbup::thumbup:
 
My choice to change our folding knife blade steel to S30V was thoroughly thought through, as was the selection of RC hardness 58-59. I was privileged to be involved in the development of S30V with the metallurgists at Crucible Steel – they asked what attributes I wanted in a steel and they delivered. At RC 58-59, the blade will hold a good edge and will be easy enough to sharpen. One of our tests resulted in S30V cutting 14,000 linear inches of e-flute cardboard before notable edge wear against 12,000 for BG42. I have been completely satisfied with the performance of S30V.
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From Some words from Chris....
 
Chris makes an excellent point here (from the "Some words from Chris......" thread):
If you have a problem with our product, whether perceived or real, please contact us first. We always respond as soon as we can to email and telephone calls. The progression of a post on a perceived problem usually sets in motion all kinds of extrapolation, criticism and negative comment that benefits no one, least of all us. This is a public forum – what is posted here can be read by absolutely anyone, so think about what you say.
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In other words, regardless of the manufacturer, if you have an issue with any product, contact the manufacturer first to give them the opportunity to remedy the situation.

The measure of a company comes from two things: 1) the overall quality of their product, and 2) how they handle issues related to their product. In my experience, and in the experience of many others, CRK excels at both.
 
My impression is that a lot of CR knives have a good heat treat; there seem to be a lot of people who are completely satisfied with it, and say that it is just as good as or better than their S30V blades from other makers.

However, the other side to this is that there are also a lot of people, myself included, who have had the opposite experience. This leads to my theory that their HT is not consistent. Some are good and some are not so good.

I'm not knocking CR knives as a whole, I think the build quality is impeccable. But a consistent HT would make a big difference in my book.

Lund - I did give them the opportunity to make it right. I sent my Sebenza back, and they tested it and found it to be in spec (58 Rc, which could actually be 57 when you consider that Rc measurements are usually plus or minus 1, and mine was soft enough that it could easily have been 57). CR offered to replace the blade, but I declined because if this one was in spec, I would risk getting another one just like it if it were replaced. I decided that spending my money on shipping it to Paul Bos was a better bet than spending my money sending back to CR a second time for a new blade.
 
lambertiana said:
My impression is that a lot of CR knives have a good heat treat; there seem to be a lot of people who are completely satisfied with it, and say that it is just as good as or better than their S30V blades from other makers.

However, the other side to this is that there are also a lot of people, myself included, who have had the opposite experience. This leads to my theory that their HT is not consistent. Some are good and some are not so good.

I'm not knocking CR knives as a whole, I think the build quality is impeccable. But a consistent HT would make a big difference in my book.

Lund - I did give them the opportunity to make it right. I sent my Sebenza back, and they tested it and found it to be in spec (58 Rc, which could actually be 57 when you consider that Rc measurements are usually plus or minus 1, and mine was soft enough that it could easily have been 57). CR offered to replace the blade, but I declined because if this one was in spec, I would risk getting another one just like it if it were replaced. I decided that spending my money on shipping it to Paul Bos was a better bet than spending my money sending back to CR a second time for a new blade.
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So you are going to take a manufacture that keeps tolerances down to 0.0005" and question their ability to heat treat? :rolleyes:

There's only so much you can doubt before it starts to sound ridiculous.
 
"You just basically started a topic with a flamebait title"

Okay, Mr. Callahan, NOW I know what flamebait is.
Holy crap do I ever wish I wouldn't have asked this question.
I'll try to be better in the future.
 
I must agree with Termiteslayer that Chris Reeve knows better than most which attributes he values highest in his knives. It is apparent that the current level of s30v hardness is exactly what CRK feels best addresses their priorities from both a manufacturing and end user's criteria or it would be changed. The differing opinions on current blade hardness is "not a real or perceived problem," design defect or an unresolved quality control issue seeking redress from the manufacturer. It is an issues of several user's personal priorities differing with those of Chris Reeve Knives. Chris Reeve is already familiar with this, as he explained earlier in the same post from which the original quote was taken. In my opinion, the majority of this thread has progressed in answer to the original poster's question of why some of us "snivel". Objectively, is anyone who posts that they installed a G-10 scale or like a low profile pocket clip or reprofiled a blade or would prefer another of a specific knife's attributes be modified merely stating that they 'know better" than the manufacturer? Or are they indicating that their personal priorities have merit and would perhaps be worthwhile to others.

In the past many viewed the original shape, the smooth domed head frame screws, the regular blade profile and the right handed lock configuration as just fine for their applications. Someone however did not and options, changes and modifications were instituted to address those perceptions. Most end users would not be presumptuous enough to equate their overall knife knowledge and priorities with those of Chris Reeve. I know I wouldn't. However, in early 2009, if asked about Chris Reeve Knives by an inexperienced and unknowledgeable knife buyer, those of us who would recommended a Sebenza over the Umnumzaan, may have done so based upon OUR personal, experience, priorities and perceptions, NOT those of Chris Reeve. We MAY NOT have been in agreement with the knife's creator, who, in this interview, indicated that side by side he would recommend the Umnumzaan since it is "the latest and the greatest" and "I've put everything I've learned into that knife".

http://www.woodsmonkey.com/index.ph...nterview&catid=73:inteviewsprofiles&Itemid=85 (to save time start listening at 38:28 )

I would not deride anyone for their differing priorities then or now in recommending the Sebanza, nor do I believe would Mr. Reeve.

Most all of a knife's attributes are a trade off. For example, the addition of a pocket clip increases bulk, machining complexity and cost but provides greater carry options. To those who's priorities dictate either a belt pouch or pocket carry, the clip, although of excellent design, is of minor value. Inserts are offered to accommodate those who have no need or desire for a clip. Its' nice to have the option. The beautiful and diverse graphics, inlays and damascus blades, which could be viewed by purists as unnecessary or not in keeping with a hard use knife, are produced for those who wish them. An obvious trade off is increased cost, inventory and manufacturing complexity. Its' nice to have the option. I, and apparently some others, feel that a harder steel would be a viable trade off for less ease in sharpening. It would be nice to have this as, at least as an option. OldDude1
 
termiteslayer said:
"You just basically started a topic with a flamebait title"

Okay, Mr. Callahan, NOW I know what flamebait is.
Holy crap do I ever wish I wouldn't have asked this question.
I'll try to be better in the future.
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i think you have apologized enough.

dont worry about it any more.
 
Josh K said:
So you are going to take a manufacture that keeps tolerances down to 0.0005" and question their ability to heat treat? :rolleyes:

There's only so much you can doubt before it starts to sound ridiculous.
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Josh - That is a fallacious argument. Close manufacturing tolerances have nothing to do with heat treat. I do not in any way believe that CR knives are subpar in manufacturing tolerances; they set the bar in that area.

However, you are not in a position to dispute my personal observations regarding the edgeholding performance of MY sebenza. You did not ever use it, I did. It would dull so much faster than any other S30V blade that I have, it was not even in the same league. You can only state that your personal observation has been different, and I respect your observations. I also recognize that many others have had a good experience with CR products.

The fact that I am not the only one to observe subpar edgeholding gives credence to my feelings on the subject. And your positive experience does not in any way disprove the negative experience had by others. Nor does it explain the dramatic improvement that resulted from sending it to Paul Bos for a heat treat. And I'm not talking a small difference, either. The facts are the facts, no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

Let's just say that although it fully met my expectations in manufacturing tolerances, it did not meet my personal expectations in the edgeholding department, and leave it at that.
 
Why is there so much sniveling about people mentioning problems they've had with CRK's HT is the real question. Do you get a check or something if you can disprove the reported problems? Do you think other people are lying? Or has being a fan or CRK went to the point of being unhealthy(aka sickness) for you that you must make sure everyone believes CRK and their HT is perfect? What's the problem? I don't even care anymore. I know what I know about the matter and you aren't going to change anything by parroting what Chris said. I'm a huge fan or CRK and I carry one everyday but I keep it at a balanced and healthy level.
 
lambertiana said:
Josh - That is a fallacious argument. Close manufacturing tolerances have nothing to do with heat treat. I do not in any way believe that CR knives are subpar in manufacturing tolerances; they set the bar in that area.

However, you are not in a position to dispute my personal observations regarding the edgeholding performance of MY sebenza. You did not ever use it, I did. It would dull so much faster than any other S30V blade that I have, it was not even in the same league. You can only state that your personal observation has been different, and I respect your observations. I also recognize that many others have had a good experience with CR products.

The fact that I am not the only one to observe subpar edgeholding gives credence to my feelings on the subject. And your positive experience does not in any way disprove the negative experience had by others. Nor does it explain the dramatic improvement that resulted from sending it to Paul Bos for a heat treat. And I'm not talking a small difference, either. The facts are the facts, no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

Let's just say that although it fully met my expectations in manufacturing tolerances, it did not meet my personal expectations in the edgeholding department, and leave it at that.
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The high level of quality CRK stands for has everything to do with the heat treat. That's like saying "Ford makes great cars but their engines suck." Allow me to put my statement in simpler words:

Do you really think that a company that values quality and precision enough to hold down tolerances to 0.0005" would allow heat treats to be botched such a repetitive manner? You're claiming that their heat treat is not consistent yet if I know anything about CRK it is that they are consistent, and consistently the best.​

If you felt the edge holding was an issue you should have let them replace the blade. Rather you were so scared you could possible, maybe, on an extreme off chance get another under hardened blade.

I will question your ability to tell if a blade is soft, under hardened, or not performing because I know nothing about you. I would much rather put my trust in CRK.
 
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