When Sharpmaker didn't work ?

[armilite]

Hi Guys,
Just looking to hear from people that may of had a hard time getting their sharpmaker to work. Like why it was not working, if they know. Or maybe just didn't like it. Thought it produced poor edges. Or just generally had a hard time with it. Things you could do to improve it.etc.

Thanks,
armilite

 

[raindog101]

I heard a lot of people have a hard time getting the edge they want with the Sharpmaker, but the vast majority of those people have not watched the DVD that comes with it. Have you watched it, or are you flying blind?

 

[gunmike1]

Most people who have problems with it haven't reprofiled their blades acute enough to work with the sharpmaker's angles (15 and 20 per side). If your knife is over 20 per side all you are doing is slowly reprofiling the blade instead of putting on a good edge. If you reprofile to 15 degrees per side or less it works great.

Mike

 

[SIFU1A]

if your knifes grind angles conform to the SM's or if ya have reprofiled them to conform ya shouldnt have any problems with a std "V" grind knife imho.

its not rocket science.

the DVD does help.

 

[knarfeng]

+1 for gunmike1's answer. Until the bevel angle of your knife matchess the angle on the Sharpmaker, you are slowly reprofiling, not sharpening.

Use a marker to color the bevel, then take a few strokes, then look at the bevel. If the color is not completely removed, the knife angle does not match yet.

 

[nozh2002]

1. Fine Rods does not work on CPM S90V. Vanadium Carbides harder then Aluminium Oxides in Ceramic and when size is comparable vanadium carbides win and it is CPM S90V blade actually sharpen fine rods. Medium rods have much bigger abrasive factor (I am saying factor because size of ceramic needles same in all rods - density is what differ them) so they does work, but to have better edge you need diamonds or Silicon Carbides. I guess this is why Spyderco does not use CPM S90V and higher.

2. For one of my Higonokami knive with shirogamy hardened bit more then it is OK in western tradition but acceptable for Japan ceramic actually cheeps edge, being too hard. With water stones - traditional Japanese sharpening solution, I does not have this problem with this Higonokami blade.

In general I think that ceramic is too hard for fine sharpening and results in bad burr which hard to manage, it is pure luck and sometimes you may get rid of it, sometimes not, but it is not consistent and repeatable. I am talking of course of sharpness beyond shaving sharp, measured buy thread cutting.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Of course Sharpmaker is not for changing angle of the edge, fresh new edge etc... When you need to take big amount of metal off, it is more for case when you already have good edge, perfect for Spyderco knives, but not for KaBar 1217 with thick 50 degree edge.

 

[gordonk]

Most people who have problems with it haven't reprofiled their blades acute enough to work with the sharpmaker's angles (15 and 20 per side). If your knife is over 20 per side all you are doing is slowly reprofiling the blade instead of putting on a good edge. If you reprofile to 15 degrees per side or less it works great.

Mike

Agreed - especially if you've used a blade hard and dulled it completely out. I've been doing some home reno stuff and actually went out and bit the bullet on the diamond rods. Other come quite obtuse as well - my Buck 887SBT was like that. I've also had times when I've gotten a little sloppy and not held the blade vertical - that'll do it as well

- gord

 

[gunmike1]

1. Fine Rods does not work on CPM S90V. Vanadium Carbides harder then Aluminium Oxides in Ceramic and when size is comparable vanadium carbides win and it is CPM S90V blade actually sharpen fine rods. Medium rods have much bigger abrasive factor (I am saying factor because size of ceramic needles same in all rods - density is what differ them) so they does work, but to have better edge you need diamonds or Silicon Carbides. I guess this is why Spyderco does not use CPM S90V and higher.

2. For one of my Higonokami knive with shirogamy hardened bit more then it is OK in western tradition but acceptable for Japan ceramic actually cheeps edge, being too hard. With water stones - traditional Japanese sharpening solution, I does not have this problem with this Higonokami blade.

In general I think that ceramic is too hard for fine sharpening and results in bad burr which hard to manage, it is pure luck and sometimes you may get rid of it, sometimes not, but it is not consistent and repeatable. I am talking of course of sharpness beyond shaving sharp, measured buy thread cutting.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Of course Sharpmaker is not for changing angle of the edge, fresh new edge etc... When you need to take big amount of metal off, it is more for case when you already have good edge, perfect for Spyderco knives, but not for KaBar 1217 with thick 50 degree edge.

I have all of the Spyderco ceramics from Medium to Ultra Fine in the Sharpmaker and Benchstones, and I have no problem putting on a really good edge, as in tree topping arm hairs and actually cutting free hanging hair with the UF finish with my Vanadium rich Manix. As long as you don't use too much pressure and have steel with a good heat treat burring isn't any worse for me than with a 1200 grit Diasharp, but the Diasharp clogs up for me. I also get a better edge with my UF's than with a King 6000 grit stone, which doesn't seem to make sense, but that is my experience. Maybe my using microbevels helps with some of the burring and other issues you mentioned? This is for knives in S30V, 13C26, VG-10, and ZDP-189 and SGPS. I haven't tried S90V, so I can't comment on your experiences there.

Mike

 

[nozh2002]

I have all of the Spyderco ceramics from Medium to Ultra Fine in the Sharpmaker and Benchstones, and I have no problem putting on a really good edge, as in tree topping arm hairs and actually cutting free hanging hair with the UF finish with my Vanadium rich Manix. As long as you don't use too much pressure and have steel with a good heat treat burring isn't any worse for me than with a 1200 grit Diasharp, but the Diasharp clogs up for me. I also get a better edge with my UF's than with a King 6000 grit stone, which doesn't seem to make sense, but that is my experience. Maybe my using microbevels helps with some of the burring and other issues you mentioned? This is for knives in S30V, 13C26, VG-10, and ZDP-189 and SGPS. I haven't tried S90V, so I can't comment on your experiences there.

Mike

Cutting free hanging hair can be done with average out of the box edge for many manufacturers. As I sad I am talking about more precise measurement of sharpness then this. I am absolutely agree that Sharpmaker allows sharpen knives much better and much easier then many other (most others sharpening solutions) - putting good edge. But it can not compete with 1 micron and smaller diamond powder - Ultra fine factor is about 3 microns (1200 grit diamond bench stone is just a first step, which is enough to make it shaving sharp and even cut free hanging hair).

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I also have all Spyderco rods and benchstones M, F, UF.

 

[gunmike1]

Cutting free hanging hair can be done with average out of the box edge for many manufacturers. As I sad I am talking about more precise measurement of sharpness then this. I am absolutely agree that Sharpmaker allows sharpen knives much better and much easier then many other (most others sharpening solutions) - putting good edge. But it can not compete with 1 micron and smaller diamond powder - Ultra fine factor is about 3 microns (1200 grit diamond bench stone is just a first step, which is enough to make it shaving sharp and even cut free hanging hair).

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I also have all Spyderco rods and benchstones M, F, UF.

I am cutting my wife's free hanging hair, which is very thin but definately not the most precise measurement. My hair is MUCH easier to cut and split than hers is, so if you are going by my hair it is pretty easy (relatively) to cut it free hanging, but my wife's hair is definately tougher. I'm not doing fast Karate chops to cut the hair, either. On newsprint and the yellow pages these knives are significantly sharper in terms of how far from the point of hold they can cut the paper. On X coarse diamond stones I can get edges that shave, though roughly, by 600 grit DMT I get very smooth shaving edges, then the ceramics take over and the edges get much better at push cutting from there, so I am talking about going way above and beyond simply shaving sharp, which is what you originally asserted ceramics weren't good for. Granted, the push cutting definately gets better when you use 1 micron polishing cloth (I need that level of polish to whittle my wife's thin hair), but I think you are severely underating these ceramic stones by the blanket statements you made about ceramics not being able to go above and beyond shaving without excessive burring. These stones bring out tree trimming sharpness and then being able to cut my wife's free hanging hair and the ability to push cut newsprint and the yellow pages way better than factory, so I was responding to that part of your statement. I'm sure high end waterstones will cut cleaner and they definately have finer grits to bring out much better push cutting sharpness than UF ceramics, but from my personal experience you can put a nice push cutting edge on with ceramics without excessive burring that goes way beyond simply shaving. I never said there weren't better solutions for a more polished edge, just that you can go way above and beyond simply shaving sharp with ceramics.

Mike

 

[matt321]

(I have all the rods and benchstones M, F, & UF as well )

The Sharpmaker works for me most of the time. I have experienced two issues which I will try to describe.

1. For a while I was routinely creating sharp edges with a residual burr. I could flip the burr back and forth or align it straight ahead, but I could not remove it. I decided it was caused by deformation stemming from using too much pressure. A related cause is not cleaning the stones sufficiently. These are related since with fouled stones you need more pressure to feel the stones cut. Also, I now remove any prior deformed edge metal by deliberately dulling the edge into the stones.

2. I occasionally find a knife that won't sharpen on the ceramics, but will on water stones. I suspect this means the water stones are more effective on abrasion-resistant alloys.

 

[nozh2002]

Sorry, when I talk about cutting hanging hair - I take my and cut, I was not really aware that this is some different hairs. I cut my hanging hair with knife which sharpness was measured as 90, which is average out of the box sharpness for good manufacturers and can be achived sometimes with 1200 grip diamond stone - I did it several times, but not consistent.

I think many misunderstanding we may eliminate if we have some more or less precise sharpness measurement, standard, so anybody can do.

I am not underrating this ceramic. Following instructions you can get you blade very sharp. Beyond shaving sharp (shaving sharpness can be done with 1200 grit diamond - I can do this consistently). Spyderco Ceramic does better then 1200 grit diamonds. But Ultra fine rods as I read has 3 micron abrasive effect and so 1 micron diamond powder, 0.3 micron diamond powder and 0.15 micron diamond powder are finer 3, 10 and 20 times. Plus on this sizes this thin edge is very easy to bend even with leather or MDF, and ceramic is too hard, at least for me. It is just inconsistent.

Yes I agree that it is possible to put nice push cutting edge on with ceramics without excessive burring that goes way beyond simply shaving. But this tool has its limits (3 microns in particular).

Again this is sharpness way beyond practical. So this limit does matter only for extreme sharpening.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[roknjs]

I couldn't get the fine stones to work for me. I could get a pretty good edge with the med stones, but when I would switch to the fine stones, my knives would turn out like a butter knife.

I did watch the DVD that came with the sharpmaker. Not sure it did anything for me. I bought a Smith's 3-n-1 and have had much better luck with the stones on that system.

 

[offsetlover]

here is a question. what sharpening system (if any) is out that can bring an edge to 1 micron?

 

[nozh2002]

here is a question. what sharpening system (if any) is out that can bring an edge to 1 micron?

As well as I know/
There is some diamond powder set I saw in local Woodcraft store includes diamond paste, MDF blocks and glass plate.
They also have some sharpening films + aluminium plate. Unfortunately I can not see it on their website.

I have jeweler diamond powder in sprays and leather and MDF - it is not really single sharpening system.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[gunmike1]

Sorry, when I talk about cutting hanging hair - I take my and cut, I was not really aware that this is some different hairs. I cut my hanging hair with knife which sharpness was measured as 90, which is average out of the box sharpness for good manufacturers and can be achived sometimes with 1200 grip diamond stone - I did it several times, but not consistent.

I think many misunderstanding we may eliminate if we have some more or less precise sharpness measurement, standard, so anybody can do.

I am not underrating this ceramic. Following instructions you can get you blade very sharp. Beyond shaving sharp (shaving sharpness can be done with 1200 grit diamond - I can do this consistently). Spyderco Ceramic does better then 1200 grit diamonds. But Ultra fine rods as I read has 3 micron abrasive effect and so 1 micron diamond powder, 0.3 micron diamond powder and 0.15 micron diamond powder are finer 3, 10 and 20 times. Plus on this sizes this thin edge is very easy to bend even with leather or MDF, and ceramic is too hard, at least for me. It is just inconsistent.

Yes I agree that it is possible to put nice push cutting edge on with ceramics without excessive burring that goes way beyond simply shaving. But this tool has its limits (3 microns in particular).

Again this is sharpness way beyond practical. So this limit does matter only for extreme sharpening.

Thanks, Vassili.

I think we are on the same page, because smaller grits can produce finer edges, no doubt about that. I just responded to when you said it is very hard and not repeatable to go beyond shaving sharp on ceramics, which I can do pretty easily and repeatably. Since I get my knives shaving smoothly on 600 grit diamonds all of my work on ceramics take it "above" the shaving level, as measured by shaving, hair popping, tree trimming, ect. as well as newsprint & yellow pages cutting. Not as precise as your thread cutting, but still pretty repeatable and consistent. I use benchstones now exclusively, and they definately burr less for me than the sharpmaker rods. Also, by using microbevels it only takes a few passes at each grit to fully sharpen the edge, which also helps me to reduce burring when compared to full bevel sharpening. Maybe those techniques help my consistency on ceramics and reduce the other issues you mentioned. Like I said, when I finish on 1 micron polishing cloth glue sticked to a plastic clipboard the push cutting improves further, as expected, and finer grits would continue to improve the push cutting. As you said, these edges are beyond practical sharpness as they will have terrible slicing edge retention compared to a coarser finish, but they do work very well on whittling and have a "wow" factor when you show them off to people.

Mike

 

[offsetlover]

As well as I know/
There is some diamond powder set I saw in local Woodcraft store includes diamond paste, MDF blocks and glass plate.
They also have some sharpening films + aluminium plate. Unfortunately I can not see it on their website.

I have jeweler diamond powder in sprays and leather and MDF - it is not really single sharpening system.

Thanks, Vassili.

any chance that you remember about how much it was? i just want a ruff idea as to how much one would cost

 

[nozh2002]

any chance that you remember about how much it was? i just want a ruff idea as to how much one would cost

Box with diamond powders (it was 5 different as I remember) with glass and mdf board cost $50.
I do not remember what was films and plate.

Sprays I have coast around $10-$15 each, tooling leather belt from Tandy Leater about $19 or you may ave MDF which may be better $5 huge board size of table top...

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[offsetlover]

Box with diamond powders (it was 5 different as I remember) with glass and mdf board cost $50.
I do not remember what was films and plate.

Sprays I have coast around $10-$15 each, tooling leather belt from Tandy Leater about $19 or you may ave MDF which may be better $5 huge board size of table top...

Thanks, Vassili.

thanks. i will have to look into getting this stuff then

 

[matt321]

Vassili,
Do you still use angle blocks for your bench stones to sharpen freehand?
Do you use the blocks for stropping as well?

Thanks,
matt321