Hey guys. I have a cheap Chinese pocket knife that I know has the ability to become crazy sharp, as well as a few Japanese knives and a higonokami. I'm able to get a 1000/6000 waterstone and 100/600/1000 oilstone for the same price. Which would you say is better? Also would stropping help at all, and if so what color should i get, I'm guessing green or red?
Which sharpening stone type should I purchase?
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sgt1372
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If you have a proper edge on your knife (any knife) already, all you usually need to do to is to run it across a sharpening steel rod and/or leather strop to restore the edge's sharpness.
You only need to use a abrasive stone when the knife is so dull that the steel rod/strop won't work and the edge needs to be reshaped in order to reestablish the edge geometry. The more you use a stone the more metal that will be removed from the blade and the shorter the life of the knife will be.
You only need to use a abrasive stone when the knife is so dull that the steel rod/strop won't work and the edge needs to be reshaped in order to reestablish the edge geometry. The more you use a stone the more metal that will be removed from the blade and the shorter the life of the knife will be.
My pocket knife already has an edge on it, so I'll strop that .Do I need to use a compound on the strop? As for the japanese knives, those actually need to be sharpened so I still don't know which kind of stone to get.
sgt1372
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FWIW, have you ever seen a barber use a compound on the leather strops that they use for their razors? I never have. You CAN use a "conditioner" like Lexol or other leather conditioners to maintain the suppleness of the leather but a stropping compound is entirely different.
A stropping compound is an abrasive and there's no need to use one if all you want to do is restore the sharpness of an undamaged edge. On the other hand, there's no problem using a light abrasive compound to enhance the stropping (which is less damaging than using a stone) but once you use a compound on a strop, the leather isn't good for anything else. In fact, if you use different compounds, you need to a separate strops to use for each compound; not a good idea to mix them.
Can't advise you on what stones to use for your Japanese blades, especially if they are damascus. I just looked and there are a lot of videos and articles about how to sharpen Japanese blades but the "advice" varies widely depending on the type of knife, the grind and the blade material. I'd study as many of these resources as possible before attempting the sharpening of any "valuable" Japanese blades myself.
Fortunately, most of my kitchen knives are just made of cheap carbon steel and they seldom need more than a touch up w/a sharpening rod or strop and I seldom need to resharpen them w/a stone. So, it doesn't much matter that I do to them.
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I'm a super fan of decent Japanese water stones.
Oil stones I keep learning about. I was going to say struggling with but that's not really fair.
everybody but the OP ignore me now and go look at more interesting posts . . .
this is the moment in the show where I start pounding the table and saying : Just get an Edge Pro Apex. Probably for the alloys you spoke of the good old basic Chosera stones the original Edge Pros come with would be stellar for your knives. Sure it is two to three hundred dollars. You're going to pay that in the end anyway . . . if you hang around here much that is . . . so save up . . . prostitute the dog . . . do what ever you have to do to get the EP.
You'll thank me in the end .
Oil stones I keep learning about. I was going to say struggling with but that's not really fair.
everybody but the OP ignore me now and go look at more interesting posts . . .
this is the moment in the show where I start pounding the table and saying : Just get an Edge Pro Apex. Probably for the alloys you spoke of the good old basic Chosera stones the original Edge Pros come with would be stellar for your knives. Sure it is two to three hundred dollars. You're going to pay that in the end anyway . . . if you hang around here much that is . . . so save up . . . prostitute the dog . . . do what ever you have to do to get the EP.
You'll thank me in the end .
FullMetalJackass
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Naniwa 400 and 600, and you're good to go!
AntDog
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First off, don’t ever use a “sharpening steel”. Ever. It’s almost as bad as one of those cheapo pull-through sharpeners. If you use a steel, use a smooth one.
When it comes to stones, you should have at the bare minimum a medium stone and a fine one. It’s nice to add a coarse stone for reprofiling.
I use a smooth steel to realign my edges and that keeps them kicking for a long while. When it doesn’t restore sharpeness anymore I go to a strop with compound. That brings it back most of the time.
When it needs sharpened, I judge how dull it is by feel and start with either medium or fine, then strop on a non-loaded strop.
If a knife is butter knife dull or needs reprofiled, I use the coarse stone and work my way up from there.
YMMV, but I have had great results with these tools for many years. A sharpmaker works great for quick touchups and is capable of light reprofiling with diamond rods.
With some super hard steels you’ll need diamond stones, but it sounds like you should look for a coarse/medium/fine setup first. Good luck.
When it comes to stones, you should have at the bare minimum a medium stone and a fine one. It’s nice to add a coarse stone for reprofiling.
I use a smooth steel to realign my edges and that keeps them kicking for a long while. When it doesn’t restore sharpeness anymore I go to a strop with compound. That brings it back most of the time.
When it needs sharpened, I judge how dull it is by feel and start with either medium or fine, then strop on a non-loaded strop.
If a knife is butter knife dull or needs reprofiled, I use the coarse stone and work my way up from there.
YMMV, but I have had great results with these tools for many years. A sharpmaker works great for quick touchups and is capable of light reprofiling with diamond rods.
With some super hard steels you’ll need diamond stones, but it sounds like you should look for a coarse/medium/fine setup first. Good luck.
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Grooved steels work just fine IF the steel is of good quality and the knives used on it are ones that respond well to steeling. Grooved steels are essentially very fine files with the teeth running cross-ways to the way they usually do, and they will remove a small amount of metal if the knife is softer than the steel is (which it should be--good steels are as hard as good quality files.)
AntDog
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Well, I might use one on a machete or something. Maybe, but probably not. I’d never run a nice knife down one.
I tried one many moons ago and was not impressed with the results at all, and was advised early on that they are the devil incarnate for knife edges.
I’d also never sharpen a knife with a fine file. I might use a file to hog away metal, but never for sharpening.
I tried one many moons ago and was not impressed with the results at all, and was advised early on that they are the devil incarnate for knife edges.
I’d also never sharpen a knife with a fine file. I might use a file to hog away metal, but never for sharpening.
I believe sharpening is overthought; I also believe Ed Fowler would agree. Unless a knife is VERY heavily used, honing and/or stropping will bring it back to quite sharp. 
These discussions do ,however, lead to a lot of education (such as the use of a sharpening steel-which is an art unto itself). If you want a mirror edge, that is very different from a functional edge. I feel a good double sided stone and a set of EZ-Lap hones with a bit of sandpaper and a strop will fulfill 90% of your needs. Just m .02. You just got what you paid for.
Unless a knife is VERY heavily used, honing and/or stropping will bring it back to quite sharp. These discussions do ,however, lead to a lot of education (such as the use of a sharpening steel-which is an art unto itself). If you want a mirror edge, that is very different from a functional edge. I feel a good double sided stone and a set of EZ-Lap hones with a bit of sandpaper and a strop will fulfill 90% of your needs. Just m .02. You just got what you paid for. - Joined
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Yes. Most final finishing with razors is done with compounds by many honemeisters. Yes there are some that finish on stones and then go to clean leather, but its a personal and blade preference. Thier Issard and Dovo both sell compounds. Abrading, burnishing, polishing are all "sharpening" steps, and can be done with various tools, so to say that someone doesn't do this or that is almost bound to be false, since someone is almost certainly trying it. Your other info is correct, but stropping is simply the action, the tools need more description. Hanging vs paddle strops, leather, cardboard, felt, nylon etc. Also, some steels for love nor money will not steel or strop. But then we are getting into the outliers.FWIW, have you ever seen a barber use a compound on the leather strops that they use for their razors? i never had. You CAN use a "conditioner" like Lexol or other leather conditioners to maintain the suppleness of the leather but a stropping compound is entirely different.
A stropping compound is an abrasive and there's no need to use one if all you want to do is restore the sharpness of an undamaged edge. On the other hand, there's no problem using a light abrasive compound to enhance the stropping (which is less damaging than using a stone) but once you use a compound on a strop, the leather isn't good for anything else. In fact, if you use different compounds, you need to a separate strops to use for each compound; not a good idea to mix them.
Can't advise you on what stones to use for your Japanese blades, especially if they are damascus. I just looked and there are a lot of videos and articles about how to sharpen Japanese blades but the "advise" varies widely depending on the type of knife, the grind and the blade material. I'd study as many of these resources as possible before attempting the sharpening of any "valuable" Japanese blades myself.
Fortunately, most of my kitchen knives are just made of cheap carbon steel and they seldom need more than a touch up w/a sharpening rod or strop and I seldom need to resharpen them w/a stone. So, it doesn't much matter that I do to them.
As for the OP question, neither of those is going to be a great solution out of the gate. Water-stones are hard to learn on, and do wear out. And you need to know what your end goal is before you begin. I'd recommend deciding what it is that you want to achieve first, then research that. Trust me, within a couple years you can have tried, learned, succeeded and failed at many things, all of which will be beneficial to you, if you try to learn. Plan on wreaking a couple knives in the mean time. That way you will be a lot less tempted to do something bad to your nicer knives. Also you will find you have a personal style, and when you know that, you will be able to get better advice from guys who sharpen the same way. I would never recommend someone sharpen like I do, since I do it all wrong, but it gets me what I need most of the time.
The original Edge Pro stones are not Choseras. Some retailers may bundle Shapton or Naniwa (Chosera) stones with the Apex but the Edge Pro has never officially come with Chosera stones.
A Archany The quality of water stones varies tremendously so I do not believe a simple recommendation for an unknown combination stone is possible. Which stone(s) are you looking at?
A Archany The quality of water stones varies tremendously so I do not believe a simple recommendation for an unknown combination stone is possible. Which stone(s) are you looking at?
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This makes me think you've probably not used a good quality steel, or if you have, it was used improperly. They work, and work well, within their intended context. But having the right combination of steel, knife, and technique all matter, as with all sharpening methods. At the end of the day, what matters is that you've found methods that get you the results you need.
Use what works for you.
It doesn't matter if it's a Sharpmaker, edgepro, wicked edge, oil stone, water stones, diamond stones, sandpaper, car window, steel, or the bottom of a coffee mug. What matters is the results.
Personally I think we have a wealth of information here, a bit too much sometimes. I would argue to keep it simple a coarse/fine stone at most till you get your technique down.
To help with technique you can buy angle wedges for sharpening, they even make them for sharpening rods/steels. Something to keep in mind a finer stone or strop wont make a knife sharper compared to when it's finished on a coarser stone. What it actually does is result in a different finish, when you finish at a coarser stone it creates a toothy edge which excels at slicing. Finish at a finer stone and it will be better at push cutting.
No matter what you use a fully apexed edge free of defects is the goal. There are dimenishing returns too, a really well done edge may be stupidly sharp and whittle hair but that will be over once you cut something mildly abrassive. My personal preference is if it can easily slice phone book or receipt paper and will stick in a finger nail as it's quicker to achieve than going all the way and I'm loosing little in real world performance for what I do. Results may vary based on skill and knife use.
A knife sharpened at a more acute angle will cut easier and thus feel like it retains it sharpness longer as it encounters less resistance will cutting. Think of driving an acute wedge into the ground vs an wider one, the narrow will be significantly easier to do. Even if the narrow wedge has a blunter edge than the wider one it may or may not still be easier to put in the ground. That is blade geometry concerning bevel angles to put it easily. Buck many years ago showed that 420hc put at 15dps outperformed their older angles they used to use by a large margin for edge retention, and it even put 420hc at the new angles in the real of bg42 at the more obtuse angles or slightly outperformed it.
If you want a stone recommendation from me I would say diamond unless you have a recurve. Preferably the Lansky coarse/fine or even medium/fine diamond combo stone. They are not considered as high quality as something like DMT but they are more than acceptable and get you results. But my main reason is two useful grits and a good price and stand that works decently to keep them in place. Pair it up with the angle wedges and you have a capable setup.
It doesn't matter if it's a Sharpmaker, edgepro, wicked edge, oil stone, water stones, diamond stones, sandpaper, car window, steel, or the bottom of a coffee mug. What matters is the results.
Personally I think we have a wealth of information here, a bit too much sometimes. I would argue to keep it simple a coarse/fine stone at most till you get your technique down.
To help with technique you can buy angle wedges for sharpening, they even make them for sharpening rods/steels. Something to keep in mind a finer stone or strop wont make a knife sharper compared to when it's finished on a coarser stone. What it actually does is result in a different finish, when you finish at a coarser stone it creates a toothy edge which excels at slicing. Finish at a finer stone and it will be better at push cutting.
No matter what you use a fully apexed edge free of defects is the goal. There are dimenishing returns too, a really well done edge may be stupidly sharp and whittle hair but that will be over once you cut something mildly abrassive. My personal preference is if it can easily slice phone book or receipt paper and will stick in a finger nail as it's quicker to achieve than going all the way and I'm loosing little in real world performance for what I do. Results may vary based on skill and knife use.
A knife sharpened at a more acute angle will cut easier and thus feel like it retains it sharpness longer as it encounters less resistance will cutting. Think of driving an acute wedge into the ground vs an wider one, the narrow will be significantly easier to do. Even if the narrow wedge has a blunter edge than the wider one it may or may not still be easier to put in the ground. That is blade geometry concerning bevel angles to put it easily. Buck many years ago showed that 420hc put at 15dps outperformed their older angles they used to use by a large margin for edge retention, and it even put 420hc at the new angles in the real of bg42 at the more obtuse angles or slightly outperformed it.
If you want a stone recommendation from me I would say diamond unless you have a recurve. Preferably the Lansky coarse/fine or even medium/fine diamond combo stone. They are not considered as high quality as something like DMT but they are more than acceptable and get you results. But my main reason is two useful grits and a good price and stand that works decently to keep them in place. Pair it up with the angle wedges and you have a capable setup.
sgt1372
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This makes me think you've probably not used a good quality steel, or if you have, it was used improperly. They work, and work well, within their intended context. But having the right combination of steel, knife, and technique all matter, as with all sharpening methods. At the end of the day, what matters is that you've found methods that get you the results you need.
Agreed.
The sharpening steel rod that I mainly use is one that I inherited from my father who was a professional sous chef. It's 14" long (add 6" for the handle and ring) and the steel is smooth; the ribs worn away as a result of use over many years. So, the abrasive effect on the knives that I "hone" w/it is minimal but the sharpening results are exceptional provided the knives already have a properly shaped edge. All of my kitchen knives do and I seldom need to use more than the rod to resharpen them.
All of my father's kitchen knives (which I also inherited from him and still use) were all just made of carbon steel (nothing stainless) and he always kept them razor sharp. He actually over-sharpened them because I still recall him spending many hrs "sharpening" them using a 2 sided carborundum stone slab (which I also still have). The stone is hollowed out on both sides as a result.
I learned how to sharpen my knives from him but I am gentler on my knives (including the ones I inherited) than he was. I will not use a stone unless I cannot restore the edge w/the sharpening steel and/or a leather strop. Then I use the least abrasive stone that I have available to get do the job and minimize the metal lost. It just takes time and patience to get it done "right."
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I have DMT whetstones. Blue, red and green, and a little tan one that I don't use much. I think the tan is extra extra fine. They will sharpen any steel, only $100 for all 3. Go buy yourself a few Wal-Mart blades, watch a few videos and give it a try. It's not to hard to make a knife shaving sharp by hand. Might not be a perfect bevel, but imo who cares as long as it's sharp.
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If I was forced to have only one type of stone for all my knives of varying sizes and steels for the rest of my life, it would be a lower grit diamond. Something in the 200-400 grit range.
I think the 8"x3" 300 grit UltraSharp is hard to beat. You can get extremely sharp edges off low-grit stones. Moving up in grit is just refining the edge you establish at low grits.
The next essential piece of gear is a permanent marker for marking the edge bevel so you can ensure you're getting the entire thing and getting a full apex.
Stropping is done to either remove the burr after the stone, enhance the existing edge, or edge-maintenance between sharpening. For now, I'd advise focusing on burr removal. You can do that on pretty much anything. Cardboard, denim around a stick, paint stick, back of an old belt, etc. High-vanadium steels get more fussy but we're talking about those. You can stop on bare leather or bare any of those mediums I just mentioned but it is not very efficient and will not produce the best results. A bar of green Chromium Oxide (CrO) buffing compound is cheap and will probably last you three life times. It isn't the best stuff out there but for softer steels it works just fine.
Not sure what you mean by Japanese knives in that that statement can mean a lot of different things. Steels used, layered vs. solid, bevel type and so on are all factors. For layered Japanese kitchen knives, I think most like water stones and I don't know how well they respond to diamonds. I would think just fine but diamonds produce a more pronounced scratch pattern and a more aggressive edge than stones of comparable grit of different mediums (SiC, etc.) and that might not be ideal of r those type knives.
Something to be aware of with cheap knives. Cheap can mean lower cost compared to other options or it can mean crap. If it's crap, you may never get a decent edge on it as the steel will just roll and likely clog up your chosen stone along the way.
I think the 8"x3" 300 grit UltraSharp is hard to beat. You can get extremely sharp edges off low-grit stones. Moving up in grit is just refining the edge you establish at low grits.
The next essential piece of gear is a permanent marker for marking the edge bevel so you can ensure you're getting the entire thing and getting a full apex.
Stropping is done to either remove the burr after the stone, enhance the existing edge, or edge-maintenance between sharpening. For now, I'd advise focusing on burr removal. You can do that on pretty much anything. Cardboard, denim around a stick, paint stick, back of an old belt, etc. High-vanadium steels get more fussy but we're talking about those. You can stop on bare leather or bare any of those mediums I just mentioned but it is not very efficient and will not produce the best results. A bar of green Chromium Oxide (CrO) buffing compound is cheap and will probably last you three life times. It isn't the best stuff out there but for softer steels it works just fine.
Not sure what you mean by Japanese knives in that that statement can mean a lot of different things. Steels used, layered vs. solid, bevel type and so on are all factors. For layered Japanese kitchen knives, I think most like water stones and I don't know how well they respond to diamonds. I would think just fine but diamonds produce a more pronounced scratch pattern and a more aggressive edge than stones of comparable grit of different mediums (SiC, etc.) and that might not be ideal of r those type knives.
Something to be aware of with cheap knives. Cheap can mean lower cost compared to other options or it can mean crap. If it's crap, you may never get a decent edge on it as the steel will just roll and likely clog up your chosen stone along the way.
sgt244
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I do not know what your budget is. However considering you are on blade forums I have a feeling you will soon be buying more knives and become more and more interested in sharpening them (especially when you get higher end knives) I'd highly suggest you get a wicked edge. It is a little expensive up front, but you will never need another sharpening system again. It is very precise and controlled angles as your knife is in a vice. I dislike the edge pro apex as you are holding the knife and could potentially change the angle throughout sharpening ever so slightly which would effect your results.
All you'd need to start with the wicked edge are the 100/200 and 400/600 stones for a very sharp knife. It is actually beneficial to leave your kitchen knives at 600 grit as the edge will have micro serrations that allow your blade to "bite in to" skins such as tomatoes very easily with just the weight of the blade itself, so as not to squeeze out the juices of the tomato.
As for your pocket knife, 600 grit diamond will leave that same aggressive edge on it, i'd suggest doing 3-5 passes per side on a leather strop (very lightly) to clean up in edge and take off some of the micro serrations (teeth) left on the edge, so this way your edge will stay sharper for a longer period of time.
The nice thing is, once you have the primary bevel angel set on your knife or knives with the wicked edge, in the future as long as you remember what angle that knife was sharpened too, you can have that knife sharpened back up within minutes, very easily.
I should also note, that there are MANY more grits available beyond 600, such as the 800/1000 diamonds and if you wanted to take it a step farther and get in to the rabbit hole of sharpening you could buy Naniwa chosera stones from 400 grit all the way up to 10,000 grit which would leave a very nice mirror edge, along with it being scary sharp! --- this stuff is more for when you are very comfortable using the wicked edge system already along with understanding the process and levels of grits.